Why Is Prophecy/Rapture Not Preached Anymore?

InnerPhyre said:

I find it sort of amusing that Jesus said that He would return like a thief in the night and that only the Father, not even He would know when that moment would be and yet so many Christians these days look for signs and wonders to show that Jesus is about to return rather than just trusting what Jesus said and preparing themselves for His return at any second....even 5 seconds from now.

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Nevertheless, Jesus told us to watch for his coming, and so we do.

OhhJim said:

I haven't noticed many people getting angry, so I'm just guessing. I wonder if it's because so many Pre-Trib people are so annoying about it.

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ROFL!! Priceless.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

FreeinChrist said:

And I haven't seen a Pretribber call someone a mocker for not being Jesus comes back in the 30 days or so, or in a year.

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Perhaps we don't lurk on the same message boards.

FreeinChrist said:

Not saying there isn't a few immature ignorant pretribbers...but I beleive you are wrong to label pretribbers overall in that way, for i can turn the label right around and point it to nonpretribbers.

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I didn't say they were "overall" like that. I said many of them were.

Anyway, you have been very helpful.

FreeinChrist said:

I haven't found Pretribbers annoying. In fact, as a pretribber, I have been called a "hound from hell", a "child of hell", a "demon", a "deceiveer leading people to hell" by nonpretribbers. And more. Isn't that rather immature and ignorant??
I have, in other mbs, been viciously attacked for being pretrib by nonpretribbers in a manner that is worse than what I have seen from nonChristians! How would you characterze those folks?

So I haven't found pretribbers "annoying", except a few, but I certainly have run into plenty of annoying, and blatantly rude, nonpretribbers. Of course, I have run into alot of nice nonpretribbers as well.
And I haven't seen a Pretribber call someone a mocker for not being Jesus comes back in the 30 days or so, or in a year. Not saying there isn't a few immature ignorant pretribbers...but I beleive you are wrong to label pretribbers overall in that way, for i can turn the label right around and point it to nonpretribbers.

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Hello FreeinChrist...I guess I am not surprised that people scoff and ridicule those who are seeking God. I used to believe pretib, too, and still believe much as you, as I have enjoyed reading some of you posts with information from the scripture concerning the feasts of Israel. Jesus death and resurrection followed the precise events of the spring feasts to the day - right up to the day of Penecost where the seed became a loaf and the Church was born. The priests would harvest, thresh the grain, and then bake a loaf of bread that would be the show bread waved before the Lord as an offering.
One thing I would suggest is that you read Batya Wooten's book, "Who is Israel". Finding out who Israel is has much bearing on how the end time events will unfold, and there are particular verses concerning the lost tribes of Israel (lost sheep of the house of Israel, that Jesus said He came for)) that effect how the Church will go into the tribulation and go through it just as Noah went through and was not taken away. Eprahim was the "firstborn" of God, receiving the covenant promise from Jacob of multiplicity - to reach the numbers of "stars in the sky" and "sands of the seas". This could only be accoplished by dispersing them into the Gentile nations as "loammi", not my people, but having them come back as sons of the living God. Paul repeats this prophecy given to the house of Israel in Romans 9:25,26 that was first given by Hosea 1:9-11. The prophecies to the two houses of Israel were much different, and the Church today is comprised of those lost sheep of the house of Israel and the wild branches that might be grafted in. Remember, Ephraim received the "double portion" of God as firstborn. Is it by chance that Christians today must be born again, and the Hebrew 12:23 calles us the "Church of the firstborn"? No.
You are entirely correct about the restoration of Israel, as both houses will be returned to the land for 1000 years of peace under the king of kings. Notice that these two houses are prophecied to come together under one King in Hosea 1:11. Ephraim or the house of Israel, was foretold to become a mighty nation that would come to the aid of their brother Judah and become the arrow in Judah's bow. How can we be taken out and do that? Cannot God keep us through any adversity or wrath meant for the ungodly? Doesn't He do that even now? Although I was brought up to believe a;ong the lines of Hal Lindsey and others who preach pre and mid tribulation rapture, I can no longer do so, as I see it as a huge mistake if only because of how arrogant it would be to suppose that our brother Judah must once again go through persecution for our sake and be left out. No, the Church will be refined even further through the tribulation. Her are a few verses to consider, but the book by BAtya, a Messianic Jew, us very helpful and eye opening to the truth concerning the two houses of Israel and who Israel actually is.

Acts 13:23 Of this man’s seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

Jeremiah 31:9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.

Hebrews 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Ezekial 37:16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions 17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?
19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

Hosea 1:9 Then God said: "Call his name Lo-Ammi, For you are not My people, And I will not be your God.
10 "Yet the number of the children of Israel Shall be as the sand of the sea, Which cannot be measured or numbered. And it shall come to pass In the place where it was said to them, ‘You are not My people,’ There it shall be said to them, ‘You are sons of the living God.’
11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel(when God will again plant his people in his land).

Amos 9:9 "For surely I will command, And will sift the house of Israel among all nations, As grain is sifted in a sieve; Yet not the smallest grain shall fall to the ground.

Jer.31:6 Arise, and let us go up to Zion, To Yahveh our God . We are the watchmen, Notzrim, preserved in Yeshua and have found grace in the wilderness, as the name Ephraim means to flourish in captivity.

Isaiah 62:6,7 On your walls, O Jerusalem, I have appointed watchmen; All day and all night they will never keep silent. You who remind Yahweh, take no rest for yourselves; And give Him no rest until He establishes And makes Jerusalem a praise in the earth.

Eze 37:12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

Zech.9:13 When I have bent Judah for me, filled the bow with Ephraim, and raised up thy sons, O Zion, against thy sons, O Greece, and made thee as the sword of a mighty man. 14 And the LORD shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord GOD shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south.

Zech 10:6-10 I will strengthen the house of Judah, and will save the house of Joseph, and I will bring them back, because I have had compassion on them; and they will be as though I had not rejected them, for I am Yahweh their Elohim and I will answer them. Ephraim will be like a mighty man, and their heart will be glad as if from wine; indeed, their children will see it and be glad, their heart will rejoice in Yahweh. I will whistle for them to gather them together,for I have redeemed them; and they will be as numerous as they were before. When I scatter them among the peoples, they will remember Me in far countries, and they with their children will live and come back. I will bring them back from the land of Egypt and gather them from Assyria; and I will bring them into the land of Gilead and Lebanon until no room can be found for them.

Isa 11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. 12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim. 14 But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them.

Jeremiah 31:6 For there shall be a day, that the watchmen upon the mount

Ephraim shall cry, Arise ye, and let us go up to Zion unto the LORD our

God.7 For thus saith the LORD; Sing with gladness for Jacob, and shout

among the chief of the nations: publish ye, praise ye, and say, O LORD,

save thy people, the remnant of Israel.

SackLunch said:

Have you guys noticed a general hostility towards the Rapture and prophecy in general? I sure have. Some people get outright angry at the mention of it, even Christians. Why do you think this is?

Personally, I think part of it is because our churches have become so worldly and self-centered. Instead of worshipping God, they worship themselves. So I think so many have put their faith in the world rather than in God and simply don't want to hear it.

What do you think?

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There are several reasons. Regardless of what reasons there are for not proclaiming the full gospel of Jesus Christ including the elementary teachings of the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment, there is only one word for it, DISOBEDIENCE !

The reasons are rooted in the flesh.
1) Pride, because they don't understand the topic well enough to preach or teach it.
I once had a pastor say this to me, "Greater men than me have studied this topic
all their lives and they connot aggree, So what chance do I have."
2) Greed, the topic is controversial and they would loose attendance and $ no matter
what position they take.
3) They don't know how to teach PreTrib, because there is no Scripture which
supports it, None !
4) They don't teach PostTrib, even though it's the only correct position, becuase it
is not popular to say, keep watch and stay spiritually alert you may go through
the Great Tribualtion.
5) The bottom line is that we are a country full of the itching ears churches. Pastors
tell us what ever we want to hear.

SackLunch said:

What do you think?

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Rather than asking why there is opposition to the "preacing of prophecy and rapture" lately, a better question is why should we recognize doctrine that has come literally out of nowhere? Prior to Darby and those that followed him, this whole issue was non-existent. Only recently (within the last 200 years) has this issue even been considered. In my opinion, that warrants a giant red flag, and we should actually be grateful if the tide of this type of preaching has been stemmed (although looking at "Christian" television, I would wonder if this was actually the case)...

We should ignore an entire book of the Bible? We should ignore most of the Book of Daniel? We should ignore Jeremiah and Ezekiel? We should ignore the prophecies spoke by Jesus Himself? Whether you believe in pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib, to ignore that prophecies appear to be coming to pass in our generation is arrogance at best. Jesus said that when these things were to come to pass, we should be ready. He knew that the prophecies would be fulfilled, so why are people so against the fact that this may be coming to pass at this time in history?

That being said, as a son of a Baptist deacon and music minister, I can truly say that it is not only prophecy that is no longer being taught, it is salvation itself that is not being taught in many churches. The Word of God has been watered down from a message of salvation to a "good works" ministry. The mega-churches almost to a church teach that if you're good, you'll get to heaven. "Christian" churches have forgotten Christ and are more worried about such things as gay marriage or government support for their favorite liberal cause (global warming, immigrant rights, etc). Jesus cautioned that many would come in His name but would be false prophets, and this has become far more prevalent in today's "Christian" churches than anyone would have guessed some 50 years ago. There's an old hymn, "Give me that old time religion". Most churches today find "that old time religion" to be too divisive, too exclusive. After all, to insist that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life and all must go through Him to be saved, that says that Buddists, Muslims, and others are wrong...and that would be judgemental...and it's not "correct" to be judgemental.

But that's just it. He is coming again to judge the world. He will separate those who follow Him from those who have rejected Him. If you have not listened to His words, if you have decided that it's inconvenient or foolish to study prophecy (which makes up a major part of the Bible), if you feel that it's not necessary to watch, wait and be ready for him, when He comes, you will be left at the door crying out for him like the foolish virgins.

FreeinChrist said:

Are you aware that Victorinus (300AD), who probably wrote the first commentary on Revelation , saw the church removed before the trumpets and the vials?
Unfortunately, his work as later altered to reflect a later amillennial view - which we know in part because Jerome referred to Victorinus as a chilaist (premillennial).

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I am aware, actually. However, I am not talking about isolated, or even small groups of individuals teaching certain doctrines. I am talking about the major move and thrust of the Church throughout history--and a cursory examination will reveal that this business about pre-trib rapture and what-not is a quite recent trend and without substantive historical backing.

rstrahan said:

We should ignore an entire book of the Bible? We should ignore most of the Book of Daniel? We should ignore Jeremiah and Ezekiel? We should ignore the prophecies spoke by Jesus Himself? Whether you believe in pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib, to ignore that prophecies appear to be coming to pass in our generation is arrogance at best. Jesus said that when these things were to come to pass, we should be ready. He knew that the prophecies would be fulfilled, so why are people so against the fact that this may be coming to pass at this time in history?

That being said, as a son of a Baptist deacon and music minister, I can truly say that it is not only prophecy that is no longer being taught, it is salvation itself that is not being taught in many churches. The Word of God has been watered down from a message of salvation to a "good works" ministry. The mega-churches almost to a church teach that if you're good, you'll get to heaven. "Christian" churches have forgotten Christ and are more worried about such things as gay marriage or government support for their favorite liberal cause (global warming, immigrant rights, etc). Jesus cautioned that many would come in His name but would be false prophets, and this has become far more prevalent in today's "Christian" churches than anyone would have guessed some 50 years ago. There's an old hymn, "Give me that old time religion". Most churches today find "that old time religion" to be too divisive, too exclusive. After all, to insist that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life and all must go through Him to be saved, that says that Buddists, Muslims, and others are wrong...and that would be judgemental...and it's not "correct" to be judgemental.

But that's just it. He is coming again to judge the world. He will separate those who follow Him from those who have rejected Him. If you have not listened to His words, if you have decided that it's inconvenient or foolish to study prophecy (which makes up a major part of the Bible), if you feel that it's not necessary to watch, wait and be ready for him, when He comes, you will be left at the door crying out for him like the foolish virgins.

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I am not advocating that certain books be "ignored." All I am calling for is responsible interpretation. I think all the books which you have mentioned are highly valuable. HOwever, I do not think that the interpretations which are being offered by many within the last 100 years are very helpful.

Why do we seem so easily to lapse into the notion that prophetic Scriptures exist to resolve whether church dogma should reflect a pre-tribulation, mid-tribulation, post-tribulation, partial-tribulation, pre-millennial, post-millennial or Gospel-Age millennial system?

This thread is a mystery. This writer knows of faith communities that launch into Daniel on Sunday morning, Ezekiel Sunday night, and the Revelation in the mid-week meeting. But gorge on prophecy sermons, conferences, books, small-group studies, tapes and DVDs as we will, how little we know! Could it be that we fail to rise above these schools of thought and actually hear the message of the canonical writers? At what point do we admit that we are grieving God’s heart by missing the whole point?

The only thing on which consensus is apparent is that something is wrong. It is as if having lost sight of our aim, our response is to redouble our effort. Doesn’t anyone get it that doing what you have always done will always give you what you’ve got? Is that really so difficult?

Does no one grasp that the primary concern of eschatology is not with sequencing phenomena at all but is first and foremost a branch of theology? Does it not occur to us that above all else, Yahweh’s prophets and apostles sought to frame in our hearts and minds an alternate vision of all of reality, to see all things from the perspective of God’s throne and then to live out of that vision in witness to Christ? Does no one get it that the Revelation (for example) is a work of profound theology, that (with the possible exception of John’s gospel) it is the most Trinitarian work in the Biblical canon, or that it is a liturgical document intended for use in church worship?

Whatever are seminary teachers doing that pastors seem no longer to have a clue as to how to teach people to read the Scriptures theologically?

Blessings!
Covenant Heart