Ben, I truly feel sorry for you and others who believe as you do. I just pray that you have not misled others into thinking that their eternal salvation is not secure in The Lord Jesus Christ.
Thank you for the sentiment. But it doesn't matter what you think of
me. Deal with
Scripture, not with me...
Your view of the cross is wrong. ONE of us is wrong in our views... Rom 5:18 is about sin, which was the only reason for the cross. Rom5:18 says what it says---By Adam, one sin, came condemnation to ALL MEN. By Jesus, one act of righteousness on the Cross, came JUSTIFICATION OF LIFE to ALL MEN; if you remain in the belief of "God chose/called SOME but not ALL", then just ignore passages such as these...
Adam was made a son of God, sin separated us, the cross fixed it. That's it! I will use your scripture to prove it. We are made sons of God again because the cross bridged the sin problem. You are free to walk across that bridge if you believe it was a necessary action due to sin, taken by God, because We could not do it. One sin condemned all of us, the cross took care of all sins. How else can this be?
That
is the point. The Cross took care of all sins, of all men, for all time. Are all then saved? No. Why not? What differentiates the "men-whose-sins-are-forgiven-them" and "men-whose-sins-are-NOT-forgiven"? What? Is it not simply,
BELIEF? And the unavoidable repentance that true belief, CAUSES? You speak the position
beautifully. We
ARE free to walk across that bridge, that "cross-of-salvation/forgiveness", that "act-of-righteousness-that-WE-
COULD-NOT-do"...
here is how he would rewrite it:_________. He wouldn't.
Exactly my point. In trying to "re-write it to mean FALL-FROM-SALVATION", it becomes clear that it
already is worded to mean exactly that---it cannot be improved.
The passage is talking about peoples, not about individual salvation, and twist it as you may, your version doesn't match.
Ah---so, then, when he says, "Do not be conceited, but fear; they were broken off for their unbelief, you stand by your faith; if God did not spare the natural branches (plural), neither will he spare you (a wild olive, singular); Behold then the kindess and severity of God; to those who fell, severity; but to you, God's kindness,
if you continue in His kindness---otherwise YOU ALSO will be cut off." But
this doesn't mean that we-Gentiles-individuals-can-be-cut-off? This doesn't apply to us today?
I think it does...
salvation and fellowship are not synonyms. That is another blatant attempt to read in to the Word what you want it to say.
"And the Word of Life was manifested, and we have seen and bear witness and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested in us---what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, that you also may have fellowship with us; and indeed
our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ. If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth." 1Jn1:2-3,6
Salvation and fellowship with God through Christ, are
DIFFERENT Salvation and fellowship are
NOT THE SAME? I "read things into the Word that are not there"? I think not...
But you failed to answer the question! Why is that? Is your salvation something you have accomplished or do you give all the glory to Jesus? One way or the other, and no fudging this time.
The work of my salvation was done entirely by Jesus, from the Cross---I did nothing. Yet I am saved by my own belief. Which caused me to be "BORN AGAIN", which is to say, "surrendered-to-Christ". Thus the duality of the position---I accomplish nothing towards my salvation, it was all done by Jesus.
AND I accomplish
EVERYTHING towards my salvation, in that I believe and receive Him and abide in Him. If "accomplish" was not part of the "salvation-walk", why is the word used by John in 2:1:8?
It doesn't say that those who run ahead were ever saved does it?
So,
"WATCH YOURSELVES, that you might not lose what we (you) have accomplished"---this was not written to SAVED PEOPLE. That just doesn't make sense... Besides, John starts this letter, speaking to "The chosen lady and her children". That is not "the true church"?
You are prooftexting verses, and pulling things out of context to jusify your beliefs.
One of us is.
You only desire it to be presented as a 'conditional'. It is not.
"He will present you holy and blameless and beyond reproach,
IF INDEED you continue steadfast and not moved away from Jesus..." This is NOT a "conditional". Remind me who is "prooftexting and pulling out of context"? Besides, this is only
one verse of many...
It doesn't say practice. It speaks of our deliberate sinning.
So,
continue sinning willfully is DIFFERENT than
practicing sin?
I think not...
If you didn't do anything to earn salvation, then God gave it to you free. Start there and then go on to understand why a true believer will persevere.
I have started, and finished, with Scripture. We do NOTHING to EARN salvation. But we DO something to ACQUIRE salvation---we receive JESUS. By our OWN FAITH/BELIEF. Thus we persevere, when our FAITH/BELIEF perseveres.
In order for those verses to mean what you want, they need to be re-written. I'm not into correcting God.
On the contrary---in trying to "re-write them to mean FALLING FROM SALVATION", we discover they already SAY THAT, in bold and clear words. We could not improve on what is written
to make it say FALL-FROM-SALVATION. When you read in Greek, it becomes impossible to contend the "ONTOS-APOFUEGO" truly saved through the "EPIGNOSIS" true knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, it becomes impossible to contend
THEY WERE UNSAVED. It is equally impossible to contend THEY NEVER LOST SALVATION.
We can lose fellowship, but never relationship...
Please cite Scripture for support, explaining in the process how you accomodate that passage about "FELLOWSHIP" in 1Jn1 that I quoted above...
I asked this question to expose you. You exposed yourself as one under law. Why does one man go to heaven and another doesn't? You replied basically: one walks rightly. You need to be saved.
Alas, you have exposed me for what I am---a believer in the testament of Paul, who separates the two approaches of life: walking in the FLESH which is DEATH, and walking in the SPIRIT which is LIFE (Rom8:13). By walking in the Spirit I am surrendered to Christ, allowing HIM to do the work of salvation IN ME. Which, seems to be, what Jesus also preached. But you think this is
wrong...
Then you boast about your diligence. You boast in more than the cross. Sad.
If my "diligence" is nothing more-nor-less than abiding in Him, allowing CHRIST to live in me and work through ME, then the only thing I can boast about, is HIM IN ME! But you believe there is no diligence required to "abiding in Him". Jude obviously meant something else when he said: "KEEP yourselves in the love of God"---because we KNOW that you can never become UNSAVED. "He will never leave nor forsake you" is obviously irreversable, "YOU will never leave nor forsake HIM"...
Are you saying that before He saved you, you changed your mind about being his enemy?
No---I am saying that
because I changed my mind about being an enemy, I am saved. Rom10:10. (Look this up...)
Than you are an eternal securist. Welcome to the OSAS club.
If salvation is "ABIDING IN CHRIST", should I not heed Jesus' own words: "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cut off as a dried branch and dries up; they are gathered and cast into the fire, and burned" ???
What happens if you later disbelieve under your theory? I don't know, you have me confused. You just claimed you were sure you were going to heaven.
I am sure of my salvation because of "Christ IN ME". Because of my belief. "HE who has the Son HAS THE (eternal) LIFE!" But if I then
disbelieve, if I am NOT steadfast BUT am moved away from the-hope-of-the-Gospel-JESUS, then my surety turns to smoke and blows away...
If Jesus were to let me down of course, I won't make it to heaven. But my faith is in Jesus alone, my only savior!
Jesus will never let us down. He will "never leave us nor forsake us". But what if WE leave HIM? Will He not remain faithful, even if we are faithless and deny Him and perish? 2Tim2:11-13
Peter is not talking about losing salvation. He is talking about the richness of your welcome. You do not understand Peter's words.
Then teach me what Peter
really meant. Peter said, "The FALSE ones seek to entice the ONTOS-APOFUEGO-TRULY-ESCAPED (2:2:18). They who
HAVE escaped through the EPIGNOSIS-TRUE-KNOWLEDGE of the LORD and SAVIOR JESUS" (2:2:20) then "become again entangled in the defilements of the World and overcome" (2:2:20). "The second state is worse than the first." (2:2:20) "Far beter to have never EPIGNOSIS-KNOWN the way of salvation, than,
having KNOWN it, to turn away from the Holy Commandment." (2:2:21)
Teach me how I am reading this wrong---help me to understand how this is only speaking of "the richness of our welcome"?