Questions about the Apocrypha

had the following criteria to decide which books were to be in the canon and which were not:

1) written originally in Hebrew
2) written within the confines of Eretz Israel
3) the book must not contradict the Torah
4) the book must have been written before the time of Artaxerxes

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1) We currently don't know the original language in which the Apocryphal (or more properly... Deuterocannonical books) were penned... at least not all of them. Some, such as Siriac (and others) were obviously in Hebrew... others (such as Maccabees) were obviously in Greek.. but these conclusions are only gleaned through contextual criticism, not a 'record' of linguistics.
2) Most, if not all, of the Deuterocannonical books were written within Yisrael.
3) None of the books contradict Torah.
4) I'm not aware of this being a requirement, however, many of the books do meet this requirement none the less.

Shalom!
yafet

p.s. Where did you come up with this list of 4 requirements? From what I've studied, the cannonical texts were primarily chosen from what was commonly used in the synagogue in order to choose a liturgical cannon that was already widely used. In other words, any books that were not commonly used among the synagogues of Israel were not included in the Siddur and subsequent HafTorah portions. These books (much more than the apocrypha) were still kept in the temple and at the Yeshivah in order to be studied from, but were not grouped in the common cannon in which to draw the Liturgy.

LOL - yeah, S_T - what happened to yer Messianic Icon??

Yes he does. The flag is just to show support for Eretz Yisrael BTW.

Many people believe that becuase the Apocrypha is not included in modern canon that it is irrelevant, but when you think about it, the New Testaments books were chosen by a council set up by pagan constatine, who knows how many other accounts of Yeshua were lost in the process. Within traditional Judaism there is respect for the Apocrypha as writings that can lead gentiles to the path of a righteous gentile, also our Rabbis teach there is much to be learned despite it not being included in canon. Thats not to say that we should all jump at the opertunity to read something that comes out claiming to be added Jewish text such as the modern Morman forgery of the lost book of Jashar. In retrospect the Apocrypha didnt have as much value to the Jewish people as the other books of the Tanach, nor did it have any importance regarding holidays for it to be put into the haftarah, or any prayers to be included in the Siddur. They just werent used as much, so they were overlooked. But contrary to fundamentalist christianity that doesnt mean its WRONG per se...

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

/me passes C4C a cup o'tea an' some cookies ....

"pull up a cozy seat and set a spell!"

LOL - now, if I could *just* get my feet warm!!!

Henaynei said:

LOL - now, if I could *just* get my feet warm!!!

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Good Day, Henaynei

I will share

BBAS

BBAS 64 said:

Good Day, Henaynei

I will share

BBAS

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AHHHHaaaahhhhh~~~~........ Todah!

Christy4Christ said:

I must say that I am VERY mad right now! <throwing a bratty temper tantrum> Why can't I have pretty pictures like that on my post!? Not fair!

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Dear frustrated lady,

Just place your cursor over one of the different pix in my posts - like the cup'o'tea and click - you will be taken to a web site that has all that and more.... Enjoy!
(this one << too )

simchat_torah said:

3) None of the books contradict Torah.

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Have you read them?
Aren't the following verses contradicting Torah?

1 - In the book of Tobit, the 'angel' of G-d not only lies, but also encourages witchcraft to expel demons;

2 - The book of Tobit inplies that almsgiving saves;

3 - The book of Tobit commands us to place bread on the grave of the righteous (what for, beats me...);

4 - The book of Wisdom 1:13 states that G-d did not create death;

5 - The book of Wisdom 3:16-19 states that children of adulterers will go to hell no matter what - That pretty much puts Solomon and all his lineage (since they are his sons) in hell;

6 - Wisdom 13:6 implies that sins done out of ignorance or 'good will' are not to blame - while Torah even provides atonement for sins committed out of ignorance;

7 - Wisdom 16:21 contradicts the account of Numbers 11:5-6

8 - Ecclesiasticus 3:3 teaches that honoring fathers atones for sins.

9 - Ecclesiasticus 3:30 also teaches almsgiving atones for sins.

10 - Ecclesiasticus 12:4-7 not only teaches us NOT TO help sinners but also says G-d will punish us with TWICE the evil if we do so;

11 - Ecclesiasticus 32:19 says we are not to regret it if we do something wrong.

12 - Ecclesiasticus 42:14 says a wicked man is better than a good woman.

13 - 2 Maccabees 12:39-45 is the classic Purgatory text - atoning for the dead is possible.

14 - The prayer of Manasseh (Ortodox Catholic canon) actually says the Patriarchs did not sin.

15 - In 3 Macabees (Ortodox Catholic canon) 6:18, men actually see the face of G-d and do not die (contrary from what G-d told Moshe)


Not to mention the contradictions with other scripture. If we were to include the Tanach, this list could easily go up to the level of more than 50 contradictions...

In Messiah,
Ben Tsion

LOL - yeah, S_T - what happened to yer Messianic Icon??

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The icons are a recent addition. I just haven't bothered with adding it yet... lol

Have you read them?
Aren't the following verses contradicting Torah?

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Yes, I have read them. In fact, I own copies of the Apocrypha (even one in Greek, its the entire Septuagint).

I can tell, achi, that you merely copied and pasted many of these "proofs" directly from some christian website, so I will now challenge you... have you actually read the Apocrypha?

Anyway, in answer to some of these...
1) Most of the above 'proofs' are taken out of context.
2) None of the above 'proofs' were ever discussed in the original councils that selected the cannon (you simply won't find it in history).
3) What few verses aren't taken out of context are based on:
a. misunderstanding
b. G-d's mysterious ways

The simple fact is, the 'offensiveness' or 'incorrect theology' of the Apocrypha was never once questioned IN EITHER JEWISH OR CHRISTIAN CANNONICAL COUNCILS!!!

If you go back and look at how the cannon was created its a rather sick, twisted and weird history. Sometimes it came down to whoever had the bigger army got their books kept in. Sometimes it was based on which books were used most commonly in liturgy. Funny thing is, theology was never discussed as a litmus test for cannonization!... EVER!

Crazy, eh?

Go back, read the history of each and every single cannonical council... of both Judaism and Christianity.

Well, to add further mud to the water...
Why were not many of the books of the Tenach thrown out? Jethro sacraficed his daughter to G-d. Jeremiah says G-D HIMSELF sent a lying spirit into the prophets.

It only gets worse from there.

No, unfortunately, it wasn't because of "oddities" (as you pointed out above) that certain books were removed or left in. As well, it wasn't because of theology.

Good ole Martin Luther wanted to cast out mutiple other books that are still in our current cannon. He despised James, Revelations, and a few others that got left in. He spoke out against I Maccabees because it supposedly taught the doctrine Catholocism adopted where one could pay money to more quickly advance a soul through purgatory. However, if one goes back and reads the passage the Catholic church used as justification for this act, you will see it is based on incorrectly interpretting the story. So, instead of properly rejecting the doctrine, Martin Luther wanted to toss out the book... all because he didn't bother actually interpreting the source more accurately!

The exact same scenario applies to nearly all of the above quoted verses Ben.
I challenge you this time... have you read the Apocrypha???

Shalom,
Yafet.

BenTsion said:

Have you read them?
.

13 - 2 Maccabees 12:39-45 is the classic Purgatory text - atoning for the dead is possible.

14 - The prayer of Manasseh (Ortodox Catholic canon) actually says the Patriarchs did not sin.

15 - In 3 Macabees (Ortodox Catholic canon) 6:18, men actually see the face of G-d and do not die (contrary from what G-d told Moshe)


Not to mention the contradictions with other scripture. If we were to include the Tanach, this list could easily go up to the level of more than 50 contradictions...

In Messiah,
Ben Tsion

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Hi,

How can one properly analyse some of these texts bearing in mind that
the events described in history in Macabees are factual events
involving the post Alexander period and are very very important
in connection to understanding certain past prophecies etc?

So how does one classify such books if part is fact and if part
is undesirable to some people?

Could we become ignorant of certain facts if we take some verses
from a Book and rely on only those "disagreeable" verses to classify that entire Book as non canonical IN SPITE of the fact that other chapters of that very Book could contain very valid historical details that are equally important?

simchat_torah said:

I can tell, achi, that you merely copied and pasted many of these "proofs" directly from some christian website, so I will now challenge you... have you actually read the Apocrypha?

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Having been brought up in a Catholic school, I am pretty familiar with the Apocrypha. I have read them many times (especially Maccabees), since as I said before I don't cry wolf and know that one can learn from them (though they do have historical inconsistencies).

It is very easy to simply say that most of the items I posted are taken out of context or are being misunderstood. But I'd like you to SHOW ME that they are out of context. That will be particularly hard with the book of Wisdom, since it is a collection of teachings, much like the book of Proverbs.

I did RESEARCH it at a Christian source, but no I didn't copy and paste anything and yes, I did check every reference - I can provide the link to the site if you want and you will see that I have 'processed' the informatioin - how does checking a Christian source make any of the information less accurate?

I have 15 verses that contradict the Torah and dozens more that contradict the rest of the Tanach. Are you sure that all of them are taken out of context? Mind you, if ONE SINGLE VERSE is shown to contradict the Torah, it's enough for the book not to be considered canonical.

In Messiah,
Ben Tsion

Well, achi... since you're the one making the claim... I think the burden of proof lies upon you.

Quote us the references, and through proofs, show us how your claims are made valid.

shalom,
yafet