Levitucus - all or none?

D.W. said:

Shalom angela 2,

Jesus did not say at any time that he was the fulfillment of the Law, instead he said the law has not been fulfilled. As to the keeping of the Law, no one was ever saved by keeping the law, it was always faith with G-d's mercy.

G-d Bless,
Dan

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Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,
Rom 8:4 in order that the just requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.


Is this a question of which scripture you accept as canonical?

angela 2 said:

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,
Rom 8:4 in order that the just requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

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Shalom,

The interpretation that People give to Paul is a long road to unravel, which is why I used the words of Jesus, so that it could not go back and forth on what one believes Paul is saying. Now as to what I said it went like this.

Jesus did not say at any time that he was the fulfillment of the Law, instead he said the law has not been fulfilled.

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This is the scripture that says that and it is quite literal.

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

angela 2 said:

Is this a question of which scripture you accept as canonical?

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Not at all.
G-d Bless,

Dan

D.W. said:

Shalom,

The interpretation that People give to Paul is a long road to unravel, which is why I used the words of Jesus, so that it could not go back and forth on what one believes Paul is saying. Now as to what I said it went like this.


This is the scripture that says that and it is quite literal.

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

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So shall we go back and forth on this one? You are quite right. While Jesus was alive the law had not been fulfilled. It required not only his incarnation but also his death and resurrection.

angela 2 said:

So shall we go back and forth on this one? You are quite right. While Jesus was alive the law had not been fulfilled. It required not only his incarnation but also his death and resurrection.

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Shalom angela2,

So please tell me, during or after Jesus death, when did heaven and earth pass?

G-d Bless,
Dan

tattedsaint said:

not meaning to harp on grammatics, but the definition of fulfill is:

1. To bring into actuality; effect: fulfilled their promises.
2. To carry out (an order, for example).
3. To measure up to; satisfy. See Synonyms at perform. See Synonyms at satisfy.
4. To bring to an end; complete.

i guess it depends on which definition of fulfill you choose to believe in, and that will give your theological opinion on this matter.

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Jesus did not speak english

"Fulfill" /shalem/ is a Rabbinic term for upholding. Think of it this way: How does one "fulfill" a parking ticket? By paying it. How does one "fulfill" speeding laws? One keeps under the speed limit.

Additionally, why would Jesus say that it would not pass away (bring to a close, if you will) until heaven and earth do the same? The last time I checked, we haven't seen armagedon, Jesus is not reigning over the entire earth, and not every knee bows to him. As far as I can tell, Jesus here is stating that the Torah is still the yardstick we have to hold ourselves to.

Peace!
-Steve-o

D.W. said:

Shalom Steve-o,

I don’t know that he broke Rabbinical law at all, he knew the law so well that when they ask him about washing the hands of the apostles he turned it back on them, he did not say that his followers were right to not wash their hands. Instead he ask the accusers about taking care of their parents. This is done much the same way as when the woman at the well was brought before him. He did not say that she was right or wrong, instead he told the people to look at their own sins to which they needed to right.

G-d Bless,

Dan

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Perhaps the question is, "Where is this washing of hands commanded in Torah?" The answer is that it is not These people "nullified" the Commandments of God by their traditions, according to Matthew. This was not some passive point, as Jesus went so far as to condemn them for it.

Peace!
-Steve-o

angela 2 said:

Jesus is the fulfillment of the law. We are saved by faith in him not by keeping any law. It's faith, not works, folks.

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How I see it is: Works without faith are empty. Faith without works is dead.

The two are inseperable: You act upon what you believe to be true, and you must believe in your actions.

Peace
-Steve-o

Flautist

1st you say Leviticus does not matter, and then you say, “and that includes all the most important part of Leviticus.

So, which is it?

ahab said:

The following was suggested when I made a refercence from Leviticus.


So who says we are to love our neighbour as ourselves, Lev 19:18 and a man must not lie with a another man as with a woman? Lev 18:22, 20;13
And who says who says a man can lie with another man Lev 18:22, 20:13 and we dont have to love our neighbour as ourselves? Lev 19:18

Personally I look to Jesus as the fulfillment of the law, but that isnt the point that was made to me.

what do people think?

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Although we are no longer under the law of the old testament, God's commandments are still plain for us to read.
The ten commandments are timeless, and how God would have us live our life. "If you love me, keep my commandments"
Not to mention many of the commandments are again mentioned in the new testament, as the walk of a child of God.
We are to show fruits of our salvation that the world may see.
We don't have to work our way to showing these fruits, they are the natural behavior of a new creature, who has the Holy Spirit as our spiritual discerner.

Hi The Thadman,

I believe, in order to be honest and consistent, one must keep it all. No picking and choosing.

Jesus, himself said he came not to destroy it, but fulfill it. Not to do away with it, but to uphold it (as not one jot or tittle will pass from it until heaven and earth pass away). At least within the Gospel accounts, there is not one instance where he breaks the Biblical Torah or encourages anyone to break the Torah (however, there are many and numerous accounts where he breaks Rabbinic Oral Torah, with things such as what constitutes the Sabbath, washing hands before meals, offerings, healing, and many others).

Peace!

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Thanks for addressing the OP. I rather agree with you as well

Hi flautist

Short Answer: None.



Jesus himself said that the law is fulfilled in two commandments: Love the Lord your God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself. Leveticus does not matter. If we simply follow those two commandments, then we will be following the Law of God, and that includes all the most important parts of Leveticus. (ie loving your neighbor, as I believe ahab has mentioned. )

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How could leviticus not matter if the whole of the law and the prophets ‘hung’ off a commandment in Leviticus 19:18

Besides In Matthew 28 and Mark 12 Jesus isn’t recorded as saying the law has been fulfilled by two commandments but rather these two sum up the laws and the prophets, the laws and the prophets hang off these two.

Peace

Hi Steve Petersen,



Thanks for your posts, ......I learn something.



Peace

Hi dhiannian

Although we are no longer under the law of the old testament, God's commandments are still plain for us to read.

The ten commandments are timeless, and how God would have us live our life. "If you love me, keep my commandments"

Not to mention many of the commandments are again mentioned in the new testament, as the walk of a child of God.

We are to show fruits of our salvation that the world may see.

We don't have to work our way to showing these fruits, they are the natural behavior of a new creature, who has the Holy Spirit as our spiritual discerner.

Click to expand...

The Thadman said:

Jesus did not speak english

"Fulfill" /shalem/ is a Rabbinic term for upholding. Think of it this way: How does one "fulfill" a parking ticket? By paying it. How does one "fulfill" speeding laws? One keeps under the speed limit.

Additionally, why would Jesus say that it would not pass away (bring to a close, if you will) until heaven and earth do the same? The last time I checked, we haven't seen armagedon, Jesus is not reigning over the entire earth, and not every knee bows to him. As far as I can tell, Jesus here is stating that the Torah is still the yardstick we have to hold ourselves to.

Peace!
-Steve-o

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so which laws should be applied? isn't the Old Law, every law in the Old Testament? including the Levitical Laws, and everything else right down the line. if the law we're talking about is the 10 commandments, then i'm all for that. but tell me, are we to keep every law as described in the Old Testament?

i mean i don't believe one say they are going by the Old Law, when they don't stone their homosexual neighbor, when they don't trim up their beards. all that is in the old levitical law. so, in your opinion, should the world go back to everything law that was in the Old Testament?

D.W. said:

Shalom angela2,

So please tell me, during or after Jesus death, when did heaven and earth pass?

G-d Bless,
Dan

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How do you come to the conclusion from that one passage that heaven and earth must pass away if the law is fulfilled?

And why are we so concerned about the law when Jesus inaugurated the time of grace?

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

None. Zero. Zip.

Hi tattedsaint.

Can I suggest that is another different and huge topic.


Jesus said He came to fulfill the law and the prophets, one reason why He taught on the scriptures (OT). The question was can anyone support the all or none view, particularly with the controversial examples I gave.

tattedsaint said:

so which laws should be applied?

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Yes.

Isn't the Old Law, every law in the Old Testament? including the Levitical Laws, and everything else right down the line. if the law we're talking about is the 10 commandments, then i'm all for that. but tell me, are we to keep every law as described in the Old Testament?

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Yep. Every law in the Law ("Law" = "Torah"; the first 5 books of the old testament, Gen, Ex, Lev, Num, Deut). The Law that Jesus and all of his followers kept.

i mean i don't believe one say they are going by the Old Law, when they don't stone their homosexual neighbor,

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Jesus argued for capital punishment in terms of dishonoring ones parents, which the Pharisees caused with their unbiblcial rules on offerings (corban). He called the Pharisees hypocrites for not doing so.

Specifically in the Torah, it's male homosexual acts that are condemned and before capital punishment is meted out, they need to be brought before a council of Judges. Then, and only if the claims are established, the entire community participates in the stoning.

When you're living as a foreigner outside of a Biblically-governed Israeli city, you don't have that authority.

when they don't trim up their beards.

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A common misconception caused by Rabbinic tradition. The Torah does not command sideburns of any shape or variety. It commands not shaving or pulling out the hair on one's head in mourning over the dead. It was a common practice in the ancient world. Egyptians shaved their eyebrows, Canaanites shaved their heads bald, wore sack cloth, and smeared ashes on themselves. For example:

Isaiah 15
1 The burden of Moab. For in a night Ar of Moab is laid waste, and brought to nothing; for in a night Kir of Moab is laid waste, and brought to nothing. 2 They are gone up to Bayith, and to Dibon, to the shrines, to weep: Moab wails over Nebo, and over Medeba; on all their heads is baldness, every beard is cut off. 3 In their streets they gird themselves with sackcloth; on their housetops, and in their broad places, everyone wails, weeping abundantly.

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all that is in the old levitical law. so, in your opinion, should the world go back to everything law that was in the Old Testament?

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I'd, personally, like that. I'm sure that Jesus would, too, seeing where the world is today and how corrupt it has become.

Peace,
-Steve-o

The Thadman said:

Perhaps the question is, "Where is this washing of hands commanded in Torah?" The answer is that it is not These people "nullified" the Commandments of God by their traditions, according to Matthew. This was not some passive point, as Jesus went so far as to condemn them for it.

Peace!
-Steve-o

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Shalom Steve,

They nullified the commandments by doing their traditions and not doing the commandments. He did not say that their traditions were wrong but that they were wrong for not doing what they knew was right. Jesus did condemn them for it. The Pharisees ask about transgressing the traditions and Jesus say you also transgress the commandments.

Paul spoke of the traditions saying he was very zealous of them, he also says to hold on to the traditions.

Where is the washing of the hands derived from?

Exo 30:18 Thou shalt also make a laver of brass, and his foot also of brass, to wash withal: and thou shalt put it between the tabernacle of the congregation and the altar, and thou shalt put water therein.

Exo 30:19 For Aaron and his sons shall wash their hands and their feet thereat:

Exo 30:20 When they go into the tabernacle of the congregation, they shall wash with water, that they die not; or when they come near to the altar to minister, to burn offering made by fire unto the LORD:

Exo 30:21 So they shall wash their hands and their feet, that they die not: and it shall be a statute for ever to them, even to him and to his seed throughout their generations.

To whom was the commandment given to WASH? The Priests…

Levitical: Exo 25:30 And thou shalt set upon the table showbread before me alway.

Messianic Kingdom: Ezek 44:16 They shall enter into my sanctuary, and they shall come near to my table, to minister unto me, and they shall keep my charge.

(Strongs) TABLE: 7979. shulchan, shool-khawn'; from H7971; a table (as spread out); by impl. a meal:--table.

Why does the common man feel a need to WASH, since the commandment was given only to Priests?

Exo 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

Exo 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Rabbis conclude that since the whole of Israel is considered by G-d to be a kingdom of priests, that all should WASH before eating. The Tradition of washing is oral law but oral law is still Torah.

G-d Bless,

Dan

angela 2 said:

How do you come to the conclusion from that one passage that heaven and earth must pass away if the law is fulfilled?

And why are we so concerned about the law when Jesus inaugurated the time of grace?

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

None. Zero. Zip.

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Shalom angela,

Because Jesus said from this scripture that the law will never pass away. He also says to teach the law.

G-d Bless,
Dan

D.W. said:

Shalom Steve,

They nullified the commandments by doing their traditions and not doing the commandments. He did not say that their traditions were wrong but that they were wrong for not doing what they knew was right. Jesus did condemn them for it. The Pharisees ask about transgressing the traditions and Jesus say you also transgress the commandments.

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Jesus is not quoted to saying "also" in any Greek, Hebrew, or Aramaic text that I have read.

In Mark 7, we see:

6 He answered them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written,
‘This people honors me with their lips,
But their heart is far from me.
7 But in vain do they worship me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
8 “For you set aside the commandment of God, and hold tightly to the tradition of men—the washing of pitchers and cups, and you do many other such things.” 9 He said to them, “Full well do you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition.

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Paul spoke of the traditions saying he was very zealous of them, he also says to hold on to the traditions.

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And that is Paul, a man who did not meet Jesus in person and had rivalries with the other apostles, not Jesus.

Where is the washing of the hands derived from?

<SNIP>

Rabbis conclude that since the whole of Israel is considered by G-d to be a kingdom of priests, that all should WASH before eating. The Tradition of washing is oral law but oral law is still Torah.

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Oral Traditions are not, nor can they be Torah. In my opinion, they are these "Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men." The idea of an oral torah that augments the Written is a transgression of the Written Torah. We are not commanded to wear kippot or teffilin, grow out peoth, or say a baruch atah prayer before using the bathroom. To say that these traditions are Torah, goes against one of the most basic of the written commandments, and (in that vein and others) the tennets of Jesus' teaching.

Peace!
-Steve-o