Ephesians 4:13-14; What will it take?

NumberOneSon · May 13, 2002

Hi all,

Several years ago I was convinced that I was living in the final generation before the coming of Christ. I read Ephesians 4:13, which spoke of a time when the Church would reach a unity "of the faith", a unity "of the knowledge of the Son of God", until we would attain a "perfect man" and the measure of the full stature of Christ, so that the Christian world would no longer be carried about by every wind of doctrine.

I was both alarmed and grieved by the ecumenical movement that seemed to embrace unity in fellowship only, while at the same time it failed to address attaining unity in the doctrinal issues which caused denominationalism in the first place. While the world's version of "unity" was bound to fail, I was looking forward to the unity in both fellowship AND doctrine that was to occur within my generation.

So my question is this; for those of you that believe the second coming might come within your generation, what will it take for the Church to attain Ephesians 4:13,14 within the next 20-50 years? How do you see unity in fellowship AND in doctrine occuring throughout the Protestant world within your lifetime? Do you see anything at work in the Church today that is leading toward that goal?

Let me know what you think!

In Christ,

Acts6:

Josiah · May 13, 2002

Ephesians 4:

11It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
14Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. 15Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ.

What leads you to believe the second coming of Christ is dependent upon the fulfillment of this verse? This has NOTHING to do with the second coming.

so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

This is just saying that God gave spiritual gifts to man to be continually moving in this direction. That's what the gifts are for - edification. When (or if) we ALL reach that goal, the gifts will no longer be necessary (as if that could happen). As long as we are human, we will NEVER be totally unified UNTIL Christ returns. There is nothing in the Bible that says Christ won't return until we are ALL unified in FELLOWSHIP and DOCTRINE

NumberOneSon · May 13, 2002

Hey Josiah,

I've just lost a post I'd just written in response

. Oh well.

The main jist of it was this...

1.) I believe the second coming is dependent on the fulfillment of Ephesians 4:13,14 because Paul did not leave an option. He said we'd need those offices "TIL we ALL COME in unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man..." I don't see any option here, or merely just a push to move the Church continually in a "direction". I see a clear destination, not a continual journey, being painted in verse 13.

2.) Paul believes that this is an attainable goal while in the body, before the coming of Christ, because the Church that is not "tossed to and fro" is around while cunning men still exist and lie in wait to deceive (v.14).

3.) The universal Church is in view here, not just individual believers, because of the coorporate focus of verses 13-14.

4.) Ephesians 4:13,14 seem to be conditions for Christ's return in the same way as Ephesians 5:27. How can Christ have a spotless bride, devoid of any blemish, if it is still steeped in doctrinal division? Doesn't seem to make sense.

Anyway, that was a summation of my lost post. At least you know where I'm coming from. Thanks for sharing your views. Talk to you later.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

RKF · May 14, 2002

The ecum. movement is not of God, I believe that we don't have 10 years left before the Lord come back. Prophecy is being fulfilled at an alarming rate....

NumberOneSon · May 14, 2002

Hey RKF,

So do you believe there will be doctrinal unity (Ephesians 4:13-14) throughout the Church before the Lord comes back? If we have less then 10 years left what do you see going on in the Church now that will bring us to doctrinal unity before He returns? Thanks.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

rollinTHUNDER · May 14, 2002

There will never be unity, until all true believers(past and present), are gathered together with the head of the body(Christ).

NumberOneSon · May 14, 2002

Hey Thunder,

So what do think about verse 15 - "we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ.

Rather than at a "gathering" with Christ, it seems as if Paul taught that this unity will occur when we "grow up" into Christ in verse 15. I understand your point, but doesn't verse 14 seem to show that unbelievers are still present, proclaiming their false doctrines? If Christ is coming for a "spotless" bride, then wouldn't doctrinal division within the Church need to be rooted out first? But like I said, I understand where you are coming from.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

RKF · May 14, 2002

No the Bible says the tares will be gathered with th ewheat and then seperated. Doctrinal Unity? No I don't think it will come to pass, not with the churches out there today preaching all kinds of crap, once saved always saved, no baptism, trinity, 3 gods, Most of them have already joined the one religious system. The true church is hiding their lamp under fear! The gospel is simple this the death burial and the resurrecetion, aka repentence baptism and receiveing the Holy Ghost, those things aren't even being taught in some churches, that's the great falling away talked about in the Bible, falling away from the truth.

Josiah · May 14, 2002

Originally posted by Acts6:5
Hey Josiah,

I've just lost a post I'd just written in response . Oh well.

The main jist of it was this...

1.) I believe the second coming is dependent on the fulfillment of Ephesians 4:13,14 because Paul did not leave an option. He said we'd need those offices "TIL we ALL COME in unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man..." I don't see any option here, or merely just a push to move the Church continually in a "direction". I see a clear destination, not a continual journey, being painted in verse 13.

2.) Paul believes that this is an attainable goal while in the body, before the coming of Christ, because the Church that is not "tossed to and fro" is around while cunning men still exist and lie in wait to deceive (v.14).

3.) The universal Church is in view here, not just individual believers, because of the coorporate focus of verses 13-14.

4.) Ephesians 4:13,14 seem to be conditions for Christ's return in the same way as Ephesians 5:27. How can Christ have a spotless bride, devoid of any blemish, if it is still steeped in doctrinal division? Doesn't seem to make sense.

Anyway, that was a summation of my lost post. At least you know where I'm coming from. Thanks for sharing your views. Talk to you later.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

Hey Acts! I must respectfully disagree!

I think that Paul was just saying that the gifts were given for the prupose of ALL of us achieving spiritual unity and maturity. There will ALWAYS be one step further that we could go in our unity and maturity. What is the highest possible attainable goal? Perfection! As long as man is fallen, we will never reach perfection in any way shape or form. So, if what you believe is true, Christ can NEVER return - unless, of course, a miracle from God occurs that causes us all to become unified in fellowship and doctrine...In my opinion, that's the only way for true unity to occur...what do you think?

NumberOneSon · May 14, 2002

Hey RKF and Josiah, I'll get back to you tonight (after work).

GraftMeIn · May 16, 2002

I have to agree with Josiah here, Paul was speaking to the Gentiles and explaining to them about the gifts of the spirit, and the mystery of Christ and why he came and died for our sins, Simply so that all could be saved. It's kind of hard to explain it all. He was not speaking of the time of the end when he wrote this though. If read from the begining of ephesians it's much easier to understand.

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Ephesians 4:13-14; What will it take?

NumberOneSon

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Josiah

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NumberOneSon

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RKF

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NumberOneSon

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rollinTHUNDER

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NumberOneSon

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Josiah

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