Ice, Water, Vapour????

so what's your question? or are you just trying to get some verses quoted at you by christians who won't try to have an honest conversation with you?

i for one have been a unitarian for a while, but i haven't had much reason to mention it in the circles i dwell in.

and i like what that web site has to say, by the way.

the ice, water, vapour theory is also wrong in that the same molecule cannot hold all three forms at once.

the trinity is abusrd and even when i was a christian i placed no real importance on it.

Many things Christians proclaim as truth or God's "law", Was made up by man in order to gain followers. Example: There is no description of hell, or for that matter the mention of a purgatory in the Bible. Communion was also made up, that's not mentioned in the Bible either. Is there any doubt that things are made up by man for his own purposes. The trinity is no different. So your entire theory, really doesn't pertain to a thing but, maybe, man's fictions, God is everthing.

Spaise said:

There is no description of hell, or for that matter the mention of a purgatory in the Bible. Communion was also made up, that's not mentioned in the Bible either.

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I’m no defender of Christianity but those statements are absolutely false.

Heathen Dawn said:

I’m no defender of Christianity but those statements are absolutely false.

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not entirely. please find a reference to purgatory in the bible for me...or a description of hell. jews don't even believe in a physical hell and half of the "holy bible" is their book! communion is based on the last supper, "do this in remembrance of me." the whole concept of transfiguration is made up though. catholics really think they're ACTUALLY eating the flesh of Jesus...chew on that....

Heathen Dawn said:

I’m no defender of Christianity but those statements are absolutely false.

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Because....

Spaise said:

Many things Christians proclaim as truth or God's "law", Was made up by man in order to gain followers. Example: There is no description of hell, or for that matter the mention of a purgatory in the Bible. Communion was also made up, that's not mentioned in the Bible either. Is there any doubt that things are made up by man for his own purposes. The trinity is no different. So your entire theory, really doesn't pertain to a thing but, maybe, man's fictions, God is everthing.

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Not true.Jesus commanded His followers to take communion .It just wasnt called Communion.Hell is mentioned in the Bible.

Spaise said:

Many things Christians proclaim as truth or God's "law", Was made up by man in order to gain followers. Example: There is no description of hell, or for that matter the mention of a purgatory in the Bible. Communion was also made up, that's not mentioned in the Bible either. Is there any doubt that things are made up by man for his own purposes. The trinity is no different. So your entire theory, really doesn't pertain to a thing but, maybe, man's fictions, God is everthing.

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Ps 9:17 -
The wicked shall be turned into hell, And all the nations that forget God.
Ps 55:15 -
Let death seize them; Let them go down alive into hell, For wickedness is in their dwellings and among them.
Pr 27:20 -
Hell and Destruction are never full; So the eyes of man are never satisfied
Mt 5:22 -
But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.
Rev 20:14 -
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

There are many more verses-I will send them if you like.....

Also, read about the last supper...that is where communion comes from...

Also, I would challenge you to read The Case for Christby Lee Strobel...lots of time & effort went into this book!

Love & Blessings!
dee

dede10 said:

Ps 9:17 -
The wicked shall be turned into hell, And all the nations that forget God.
Ps 55:15 -
Let death seize them; Let them go down alive into hell, For wickedness is in their dwellings and among them.
Pr 27:20 -
Hell and Destruction are never full; So the eyes of man are never satisfied

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As I suspected, in each case above the word "hell" is rendered "grave" in my Tanach. I'm sorry, but I'll take the Jews' word over a Christian's...it's their book to begin with. The same phenomenon also happened with the New Testament..."hades" means nothing more than "grave." Hell in its early history simply meant a whole in the ground in which you bury things. There is no place of eternal torment and torture. God is no sadist.

Se7en said:

As I suspected, in each case above the word "hell" is rendered "grave" in my Tanach. I'm sorry, but I'll take the Jews' word over a Christian's...it's their book to begin with. The same phenomenon also happened with the New Testament..."hades" means nothing more than "grave." Hell in its early history simply meant a whole in the ground in which you bury things. There is no place of eternal torment and torture. God is no sadist.

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But is not G-d a Just G-d???
Lets say you were to go speeding down the road, drunk, and get stopped. Now you go in front of a judge. You know you are facing jail time...would you say "Judge, I know you are not a sadist, you know what happens to people in prison-its not a nice place." Do you think he should just let you go?

Now lets say the person speeding is someone else-and he has put you or a loved on in danger. Would you say thats OK?

Love-n-Blessings
dee

dede10 said:

But is not G-d a Just G-d???
Lets say you were to go speeding down the road, drunk, and get stopped. Now you go in front of a judge. You know you are facing jail time...would you say "Judge, I know you are not a sadist, you know what happens to people in prison-its not a nice place." Do you think he should just let you go?

Now lets say the person speeding is someone else-and he has put you or a loved on in danger. Would you say thats OK?

Love-n-Blessings
dee

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you did not address any part of my post except my statement that god is no sadist...interesting. anyway, the above situation is not ok...but eternal torment and hellfire is not a just response. christians claim that god is just and that god is love...reconcile that with torture and you win. i'm not really sure why anyone would want to believe in a physical hell in the first place. it's not even a biblical theory...just a scare tactic.

Hello, everyone.
I'm jumping into the water, and hoping I can swim.

I'm going to address various points from a few of you, by posting a reply per person or post. For clarity, ok?

I begin with the OP.

Alexei said:

Of course everyone has heard about the Ice, Water, and Vapour to explain Trinity!
Dear Christians say that just as water is "one" but with three "states" or three "forms," so too is God Almighty one but with three states.
On the face of it this appears to be quite a compelling argument, however it have a serious gap:

Let's take for a moment seriously the example Water, Ice, Vapour.
Now if Water dies, then Ice must dies and vapour must dies.
And if Jesus dies,then The Father must die and the Holy Spirit must die.
Wooooo!!! A universe without God for 2 days and one night. Great!!!
But Christians would say:
Oh! No! Jesus spirit didn't die but just his body died.
Ohou?
Then where is this Supreme Highest Ultimate Utmost Absolute Extreme Top Extraordinary Sacrifice that Christians drum for if when it's just some rotten flesh body that used to go to the bathroom to die and some blood shedding?

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Alexei,
there is no model that Man can devise that can explain in entirety the Truth of the Blessed Trinity.

But that doesn't stop Man from trying.

Saint Patrick explained the Trinity by using the model of the shamrock: three leaves but one clover.

You are correct that the "Ice, Water, and Vapour Model" is flawed. All models are.

For if the I/W/V were fully correct, then the Three would exist simulataneously (which cannot happen because of what the temperature determines), and each of the Three would each by 100% of the H2O. (and 3 100's =300 in mathematics.)

The Truth of the Blessed Trinity has bbest been explained by Athanasius. I will paraphrase.

The Father is 100% God.
The Son is 100% God.
The Spirit is 100% God.
Not that These are three gods, but the One God.

The Father is not the Son.
The Father is not the Spirit.
The Son is not the Father.
The Son is not the Spirit.
The Spirit is not the Father.
The Spirit is not the Son.
Yes, these Three Persons are 100% of the same Divine Essence.

And so, we read that the Son prayed to the Father.
We read that the Father sent the Spirit.
We read that the Spirit is with the Church of God.

And the baptism is "In the name [singular noun] of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit."

Theologians who accept the truth of the Blessed trinity have thought and thought and prayed and prayed to fully understand this... and the human mind CANNOT.
Nor can the human mind fully understand how there is "anything" before time and space. And what is "eternity"?

As for the website you provided.

Please visit this site and see Who is Jesus? …According to leading Biblical scholars and reference works.
http://www2.bibelcenter.de/bibliothek/baixeras/whoisjesus.html

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I will show a few of the errors contained, beginning with the first paragraph, in italics with my comments being underlined within the first paragraph.

The purpose of this paper is to document the many quotes which illustrate that important scholars and reference books do not agree at all that the statement "Jesus is God" represents the Bible accurately. Ok so far. I believe that this is important because the majority of mainstream Christianity is under the incorrect assumption that Christians who renounce the Trinity as unbiblical are members of some sort of cult who have been brainwashed into believing this heretical view. Do not tell us what we mainstream Christians believe of you. Show us your evidence. This could not be farther from the truth. In fact, it is the complete opposite. The majority of these people have studied the Bible in depth, which is why they can see that the Trinity is not contained in the Scriptures.

That was the end of the 1st paragraph.
And there are a great many of scholars who have studied the Bible in depth who can see that the Trinity IS contained in the Scriptures.
Moreso, the very men who wrote the New Testament books of the Bible were members of the One Christian Church. The One Christian Church affirms the belief in the Blessed Trinity.

Let us start first with an individual which most of us in the U.S.A. admire for his contribution to our country not only as President, but also as the author of one of the greatest literary works of our time, the Declaration of Independence. What most people do not know about Thomas Jefferson is that he was an excellent, well-known and respected theologian of his time.

Yes, Thomas Jefferson wrote all that. And thereforte, he is right and we are wrong. And who IS Thomas Jefferson over such men as : Jerome, Thomas Aquinas, Augustine of Hippo? What access to truth did Jefferson have over these men?

And the website goes on and on with the "scholars who deny the Trinity" who must know more than the scholars who are Christians who believe the Doctrine of the Trinity.

The website is a fine collection of men who deny what other men have affirmed. Seems like an even fight to me. Except. The website DARE NOT show the arguments from the Christian scholars. Why not show them? Why not pit quote for quote? The answers to my questions may only be answered by the author of the article.

Se7en said:

the ice, water, vapour theory is also wrong in that the same molecule cannot hold all three forms at once.

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Right.
As I said, all models devised by men to explain the Truth of the Blessed Trinity will fail to fully explain and to fully comprehend this.

the trinity is abusrd and even when i was a christian i placed no real importance on it.

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Absurd by man's logic, true.

Now, with your logic, explain to me eternity.
Explain to me how a single cell becomes two equal cells.
Explain to me how God is beyond space and time.

Explain GOD, the Limitless Creator, Who created everything from complete nothingness. Explin that with with your human limited mind.

Se7en said:

you did not address any part of my post except my statement that god is no sadist...interesting. anyway, the above situation is not ok...but eternal torment and hellfire is not a just response. christians claim that god is just and that god is love...reconcile that with torture and you win. i'm not really sure why anyone would want to believe in a physical hell in the first place. it's not even a biblical theory...just a scare tactic.

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Do you believe in Heaven?

Love-n-blessings
dee

Spaise said:

Many things Christians proclaim as truth or God's "law", Was made up by man in order to gain followers. Example: There is no description of hell,

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Isaiah 33:11, 14
Matthew 25:41
Matthew 25:46
Luke 3:16-17
2 Thessalonians 1:6-9

And see the Book of Revelation.

or for that matter the mention of a purgatory in the Bible.

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1 John 5:16-17
2 Samuel 12:13-14
Matthew 12:32 (Which sins will be forgiven in the next?)
2 Maccabees 12:44-46
1 Corinthians 3:15
1 Peter 3:18-20

Communion was also made up, that's not mentioned in the Bible either.

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John 6:35-71
Matthew 26:26
Mark 14:22
Luke 22:17
1 Corinthians 10:16
1 Corinthians 11:23-29

And if you would like to se the Divinity of Jesus in the Bible:
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/jesus_christ_divinity.html

And if you would like to see the Divinity of the Holy Spirit:
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/the_holy_spirit.html

And as for the Blessed Trinity:
Matthew 28:19
2 Cor. 13:14
Heb. 9:14

Se7en said:

the whole concept of transfiguration is made up though.

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The Transfiguration was when Jesus met with Moses and Elijah.

I believe you are referring to Transubstantiation.
http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/euch2.html
[Paragraph] 1376
The Council of Trent summarizes the Catholic faith by declaring: "Because Christ our Redeemer said that it was truly his body that he was offering under the species of bread, it has always been the conviction of the Church of God, and this holy Council now declares again, that by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation."[204]

204 Council of Trent (1551): DS 1642; cf. Mt 26:26 ff.; Mk 14:22 ff.; Lk 22:19 ff.; 1 Cor 11:24 ff..

Don't get all happy as though the belief in the Real Presnece began at Trent.
read the above paragraph again. "it has always been the conviction of the Church of God, and this holy Council now declares again,"

catholics really think they're ACTUALLY eating the flesh of Jesus...chew on that....

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You would do well to read all of http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/euch2.html in order to begin to grasp what Catholics really think.

Here's a bit of it.
1373 "Christ Jesus, who died, yes, who was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who indeed intercedes for us," is present in many ways to his Church:[195] in his word, in his Church's prayer, "where two or three are gathered in my name,"[196] in the poor, the sick, and the imprisoned,[197] in the sacraments of which he is the author, in the sacrifice of the Mass, and in the person of the minister. But "he is present . . . most especially in the Eucharistic species."[198]

1374 The mode of Christ's presence under the Eucharistic species is unique. It raises the Eucharist above all the sacraments as "the perfection of the spiritual life and the end to which all the sacraments tend."[199] In the most blessed sacrament of the Eucharist "the body and blood, together with the soul and divinity, of our Lord Jesus Christ and, therefore, the whole Christ is truly, really, and substantially contained."[200] "This presence is called 'real' - by which is not intended to exclude the other types of presence as if they could not be 'real' too, but because it is presence in the fullest sense: that is to say, it is a substantial presence by which Christ, God and man, makes himself wholly and entirely present."[201]

1375 It is by the conversion of the bread and wine into Christ's body and blood that Christ becomes present in this sacrament. The Church Fathers strongly affirmed the faith of the Church in the efficacy of the Word of Christ and of the action of the Holy Spirit to bring about this conversion. Thus St. John Chrysostom declares:
It is not man that causes the things offered to become the Body and Blood of Christ, but he who was crucified for us, Christ himself. The priest, in the role of Christ, pronounces these words, but their power and grace are God's. This is my body, he says. This word transforms the things offered.[202]
And St. Ambrose says about this conversion:
Be convinced that this is not what nature has formed, but what the blessing has consecrated. The power of the blessing prevails over that of nature, because by the blessing nature itself is changed.... Could not Christ's word, which can make from nothing what did not exist, change existing things into what they were not before? It is no less a feat to give things their original nature than to change their nature.[203]

195 Rom 8:34; cf. LG 48.
196 Mt 18:20.
197 Cf. Mt 25:31-46.
198 SC 7.
199 St. Thomas Aquinas, STh III, 73, 3c.
200 Council of Trent (1551): DS 1651.
201 Paul VI, MF 39.
202 St. John Chrysostom, prod. Jud. 1:6: PG 49, 380.
203 St. Ambrose, De myst. 9, 50; 52: PL 16, 405-407.

KennySe said:

Absurd by man's logic, true.

Now, with your logic, explain to me eternity.
Explain to me how a single cell becomes two equal cells.
Explain to me how God is beyond space and time.

Explain GOD, the Limitless Creator, Who created everything from complete nothingness. Explin that with with your human limited mind.

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It's not only logically absurd; it's factually absurd. The trinity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is nothing new or unique to Christianity. It's a concept that was practiced by pagans for centuries before anyone in Rome ever dreamed of some Jew named Jesus. If Jesus had actually believed himself to be an equal part of the Godhead to Hashem not a single Jew would have lent him an ear. Hear, O Israel, the Lord your God is one...not a mystery, not triune.

Eternity has no meaning to me. I am finite so I concern myself with finite things.
I can't explain how a single cell becomes two cells. I'm just a music major. Ask a biologist and I'm sure he/she would oblige.
True, I cannot explain God, but that doesn't mean I can't explain away a theological fallacy rooted only in pagan traditions.

dede10 said:

Do you believe in Heaven?

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I think that God exists somewhere and I suppose you can call Its realm "Heaven" if you want to, but the Christian idea of heaven I do not prescribe to. Biblically, you die and wait to be resurrected...at which point you live eternally on earth. Revelation makes it clear that God will dwell on earth with mankind. Personally, I will die and then what happens next I don't really concern myself with. What I do with the time given to me is more important.

i await your reconciliation of "god is love" and "god is just" with eternal torture.

KennySe said:

The Transfiguration was when Jesus met with Moses and Elijah.

I believe you are referring to Transubstantiation.

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Correct, my mistake. Thanks for the info, that cleared things up a bit. It's silly regardless.

Se7en said:

I think that God exists somewhere and I suppose you can call Its realm "Heaven" if you want to, but the Christian idea of heaven I do not prescribe to. Biblically, you die and wait to be resurrected...at which point you live eternally on earth. Revelation makes it clear that God will dwell on earth with mankind. Personally, I will die and then what happens next I don't really concern myself with. What I do with the time given to me is more important.

i await your reconciliation of "god is love" and "god is just" with eternal torture.

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If you were a judge, would you want to be a fair and equal judge?

Love-n-Blessings
dee

Ice, water and vapous is not an argument! It is an illustration, a metaphore to make one aspect of God clearer to the listener.

Jesus's great sacrifice is the unparalled suffering he undergoes for all of mankind, even those who hate him.