Why Muslims have trouble being open about things...

ContraMundum · Jul 14, 2005

The real reason it is so hard to get Muslims to admit that their "perfect world view" is not that rock-solid is that for them to convert to another religion is to be handed a death sentence.

I notice that "Saudi Girl" has an icon and identity that tells us she is in Saudi Arabia (unless she's lying, and some Muslims claim they can lie to us to preach to us- it's happened to me). Now, isn't it true that converting to Christianity in a country such as that will bring deadly force upon one's person? There's countless stories coming out of those places about the fear instilled into people in order to keep them from seriously searching the claims of Christianity.

Perhaps we should be understanding of them, and realise that they can't admit to Islam being wrong because they'll be beheaded by guys with AK's and green masks.

Interesting that there is no honourable way out of that religion called Islam. Reminds me of the Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Scientologists and all the other cults.

Another cultic thing is that people are driven to suicide by the teachings of the cult. When that happened at Jonestown every Christian on the planet knew then and there that Jones was a cultist and he was a heretic, and we all said so, loudly. No such reply from the Imams when kids are led to blow themselves up to get laid in Paradise.

It is self-evident that Islam is the most violent, aggresive cult in history. Just turn on the TV and there's another idiot blowing up innocent people for his "religion of peace".

This of course proves another cultic tendency exists in Islam- doublethink/talk.

"We are a religion of peace" (but it was spread by the sword, and one is killed or has body parts hacked off for not falling into line to the words of the "prophet")

"Women are treated well in Islam" (Unless they disobey their husband, who may be a complete prat, in which he can beat her, or unless she doesn't cover her body the way the MALE Imams tell her to, again, violence is the sentence)

Another question- if Islamic society is so good, why are they all trying to migrate to the "infidel and immoral" West?

The answer is obvious- Islamic society is an oppressive hell. Unless, it seems, the nation is progressive (and many of them have systems that were established by Western nations). Progressive Muslim countries like those in SE Asia won't be progressive for long, and we all know it.

Whitegravity · Jul 14, 2005

I'm not quite sure, there dude, but it sounds like you're the one with problems with being open. Open minded, really; if you're going to condone or even question with intent to harm concerning another's beliefs.

It is self-evident that Islam is the most violent, aggresive cult in history. Just turn on the TV and there's another idiot blowing up innocent people for his "religion of peace".

Christianity is a very judging a violent religion. I remember crusades and the Inquesition...

Another question- if Islamic society is so good, why are they all trying to migrate to the "infidel and immoral" West?

If Christianity is so good, why do they always have to judge other people's ideas, beliefs, principles, morals, fundamentals, opinions?

If any person who should be open, dude, I think It's you. Now relax, turn of the news, tell your parents you love them, and find a hobby.

looking4wisdom · Jul 14, 2005

I agree with you contra...Where is the outrage from Imams over suicide bombings?...There is very little given the amount of Imams in the world...In a lot of countries conversion is illegal, including Egypt which is fairly modern.

ContraMundum · Jul 14, 2005

A my goodness, Wiccan? Sorry old chap, but if sounded blunt here, it's because the truth is not always nice. You sould have attacked the words, not the feeling.

Whitegravity said:
I'm not quite sure, there dude, but it sounds like you're the one with problems with being open. Open minded, really; if you're going to condone or even question with intent to harm concerning another's beliefs.

Look, let me explain it to you simply. There's open minded and there's "too open minded".

This is a debate forum. "Discussion and debate". That's why we're all here.

Secondly, this religion of Islam currently has many people on this forum critiquing my religion. In the spirit of equal time, coupled with my personal penchant for calling spades spades as well as exposing whitewashes as I understand them, I don't mind chipping in with some truth (as I see it) on a debate forum.

Christianity is a very judging a violent religion. I remember crusades and the Inquesition...

Coming from a Wiccan, this is hilarious. You do realise that if Gerald Gardiner is right about his history, then logically you've got buckets of blood on your hands too.

For a start, I don't think you're old enough to "remember" the crusades or the inquisition, let alone to have researched them in any depth beyond the discovery channel level. I say this not to be agressive, but as a response to your comment as it appears. If I'm wrong, go for it. It's a debate forum.

Serious study is required of these topics and although this will certainly not exhonerate the Church of her sin it certainly gives the vitriol against her some sound perspective.

As for Christianity being judging and violent, that's a cop-out. Judge the religion on it's teachings, not the people who try to represent it. Read the words of Jesus and His Apostles and then tell me it's a violent religion.

Furthermore, while you're enjoying the relative freedom and comfort of living in a country established basically by Christians and their doctrines think about who's beheading people on video for their religion in this day and age, when all other religions have given that up as being evil (indeed, what Christ originally taught about that is being followed better these days- the church repented and returned to its Master)

If Christianity is so good, why do they always have to judge other people's ideas, beliefs, principles, morals, fundamentals, opinions?

Isn't that what you're doing now?

Why is debate so wrong in the right place?

If any person who should be open, dude, I think It's you. Now relax, turn of the news, tell your parents you love them, and find a hobby.

Thanks for the very petty, immature and snide remark. Can I return in kind without you getting all worked up? How about this, taking my cue from you? Relax, turn on the news, tell your parents that you love them and find a religion with authority other than the disengenous and uneducated Mr Gardiner.

arunma · Jul 14, 2005

Contra, I think you should have said this a little more politely, but I do agree with you. I think the problem in Islam is that there isn't much intellectual honesty. We Christians might declare people like Bishop Spong to be heretics, but the fact that we permit him to distribute his heresies allows our religion to be more carefully scrutinized. In the early church, heretics were dealt with intellectually rather than physically. Unfortunately, anyone who delves into the topic of Qur'an authorship or the veracity of the Hadiths will probably have a fatwah issued against him.

Many Muslims I know are good people. It's their religion that is, in my opinion, dishonest.

Whitegravity · Jul 14, 2005

After reading what you replied to me and again reading what I wrote I can clearly see that I'm wrong. I came to the board a little peeved and that affected my reply. I can clearly see your a good guy simply posting your opinion...I guess it's all in self defense and that's what may have caused this chain reaction. It was wrong of me to be hypocritical like that and to be smug like I was, I'm not proud of what I wrote and can clearly see now that it was indeed immature. I guess you really can't judge a person by their history, I just wanted to graciously apologize and see if I can expand the debate...

BB

ContraMundum · Jul 14, 2005

Whitegravity said:
After reading what you replied to me and again reading what I wrote I can clearly see that I'm wrong. I came to the board a little peeved and that affected my reply. I can clearly see your a good guy simply posting your opinion...I guess it's all in self defense and that's what may have caused this chain reaction. It was wrong of me to be hypocritical like that and to be smug like I was, I'm not proud of what I wrote and can clearly see now that it was indeed immature. I guess you really can't judge a person by their history, I just wanted to graciously apologize and see if I can expand the debate...

BB

You, sir, are a true gentleman.

I humbly accept this, and you have shown us all something.

I don't have too many blessings here, but they're all yours.

ContraMundum · Jul 14, 2005

arunma said:
Contra, I think you should have said this a little more politely, but I do agree with you. I think the problem in Islam is that there isn't much intellectual honesty. We Christians might declare people like Bishop Spong to be heretics, but the fact that we permit him to distribute his heresies allows our religion to be more carefully scrutinized. In the early church, heretics were dealt with intellectually rather than physically. Unfortunately, anyone who delves into the topic of Qur'an authorship or the veracity of the Hadiths will probably have a fatwah issued against him.

Many Muslims I know are good people. It's their religion that is, in my opinion, dishonest.

I agree and I also agree that I was probably a little guilty of wearing my heart on my sleeve.

It's just so darn sad to see things in our world they way they have become, and how much destruction on innocents is being carried out. It's very easy to get caught up in that emotion.

May Christ teach us all more.

ServantofTheOne · Jul 14, 2005

"Many Muslims I know are good people. It's their religion that is, in my opinion, dishonest."

this is funny, there are probably 1.5 billion muslims in the world, when a handful of criminals commits crimes its the religion that is pinned as "dishonest" and "violent".

there is too much ignorance in the world. please become enlightened with knowledge and wisdom.

The fact is the waves of people are becoming muslims willingly every single day, from all over the world. All these people must have missed the "dishonest" part of the religion when they chose to make a life altering decision. you must know something they don't.

Whitegravity · Jul 14, 2005

I think that what you're saying, servantoftheone, was my original intention. It's terrible that recent events have divided us all up from being a whole with the world. I suppose it's these small steps in understanding that will help us build a better tomorrow.

Just word it a little better; the become enlightened part, wasn't really necessary...

Politics and Religion-is it really fair to mix these two?

For some reason an old Beatles song comes to mind...

sefroth77 · Jul 14, 2005

ServantofTheOne said:
"Many Muslims I know are good people. It's their religion that is, in my opinion, dishonest."

this is funny, there are probably 1.5 billion muslims in the world, when a handful of criminals commits crimes its the religion that is pinned as "dishonest" and "violent".

there is too much ignorance in the world. please become enlightened with knowledge and wisdom.

The fact is the waves of people are becoming muslims willingly every single day, from all over the world. All these people must have missed the "dishonest" part of the religion when they chose to make a life altering decision. you must know something they don't.

How many of the worlds 1.3Billion Muslims really read and understood the Al-Quran ?? As long as they don't read it they are peaceful. Those Terrorist are truly following the Al-Quran, they've understood it.

Osiris · Jul 14, 2005

ServantofTheOne said:
"Many Muslims I know are good people. It's their religion that is, in my opinion, dishonest."

this is funny, there are probably 1.5 billion muslims in the world, when a handful of criminals commits crimes its the religion that is pinned as "dishonest" and "violent".

there is too much ignorance in the world. please become enlightened with knowledge and wisdom.

The fact is the waves of people are becoming muslims willingly every single day, from all over the world. All these people must have missed the "dishonest" part of the religion when they chose to make a life altering decision.

I have seen this logical fallacy in many muslim chat rooms.

"Islam is the fastest growing religion" -- what does Islam being the fastest growing religion have anything to do with it being the True religion? This is like claiming Joe always tells the truth because he's tall.

Non-sequitur or 'argumentum ad populum'

you must know something they don't.

Not to be offensive, but most reasons for believing in religious beliefs would fall under a logical fallacy.

Bookofknowledge · Jul 14, 2005

Whitegravity said:
please change your font style and color, it's really hard to read.

Me...

S Walch · Jul 14, 2005

ServantofTheOne said:
The fact is the waves of people are becoming muslims willingly every single day, from all over the world. All these people must have missed the "dishonest" part of the religion when they chose to make a life altering decision. you must know something they don't.

That can be said for hinduism, Christianity, Paganism etc etc...

People willingly convert to these religions daily from all over the world.

ContraMundum · Jul 14, 2005

I'm speaking as an outsider of course but try to put yourself in my shoes...

ServantofTheOne said:
when a handful of criminals commits crimes its the religion that is pinned as "dishonest" and "violent".

It's a little more than that I'm afraid. It's a long history, started by Mohammed Himself, of violence that makes outsiders think Islam is violent. I mean, be honest servantoftheone, Mohammed ordered executions and led wars of conquest. It started then, and continues now.

Interesting that it appears to us that only the fundamentlist Muslims follow these rules and are open to admitting that they are being obedient to Mohammed, accusing those who do not do such things as being disobedient....and they've got the verses from the Quran to prove it.

If you are a moderate Muslim am I wrong or do you think we all on this forum should not be stoned to death as the Quran states? What is your take on those verses in the Quran?

Because this discussion is on a Christian forum, I think we have the right to say that Jesus Christ never executed anyone, nor led any army of conquest, nor ordered the subjugation of people to pay taxes to Him, but rather He did the opposite. Rather than ordering stonings, He stopped them ("let he who is without sin cast the first stone"), rather than having unbelievers executed, He forgave them as they executed Him ("Father, forgive them for they know not what they do"), rather than conquering nations to spread His message, He claimed no earthy Kingdom ("My Kingdom is not of this world"). Nor did he acquire or seek out riches and wealth ("Sell what you possess and give alms. Make to yourselves bags which grow not old, a treasure in heaven which faileth not: where no thief approacheth, nor moth corrupteth.")

You can't compare Christ's morality to any other. Think about it. Jesus gave His life. Did Mohammed give or take lives, in your understanding?

there is too much ignorance in the world. please become enlightened with knowledge and wisdom.

Good idea.

The fact is the waves of people are becoming muslims willingly every single day, from all over the world.

Not in my neighborhood.

All these people must have missed the "dishonest" part of the religion

I agree.

when they chose to make a life altering decision. you must know something they don't.

I agree with that too.

rahma · Jul 14, 2005

Of course, why didn't I see it before? We're all brainwashed cult members :doh:

Galilee · Jul 14, 2005

rahma said:
Of course, why didn't I see it before? We're all brainwashed cult members

well, maybe there are things that you don't know ?
especially that most of the islamic sources are written in arabic..

i really noticed that most of those who convert to islam aren't arabic speakers, and never come from arabic countries as example, like christians in these countries.. :scratch:

ServantofTheOne · Jul 14, 2005

Galilee said:
i really noticed that most of those who convert to islam aren't arabic speakers, and never come from arabic countries as example, like christians in these countries..

could it be that the vast majority of arabic speakers are already muslim?

rahma · Jul 14, 2005

Galilee said:
well, maybe there are things that you don't know ?
especially that most of the islamic sources are written in arabic..

There are always things people don't know. However, I am learning arabic, and have my very own translator in my husband, a native arabic speaker and a buff when it comes to fiqh.

And many converts will dedicate a great amount of time to learning arabic. Some of the greatest american and westernmuslim scholars are converts who are fluent in MSA and classical arabic, such as Hamza Yusuf, Dr. Umar Abdullah Faroq, Dr. Hakim Jackson, Dr. Martin Ling, Dr. Winter, the list goes on.

i really noticed that most of those who convert to islam aren't arabic speakers, and never come from arabic countries as example, like christians in these countries..

Christian arabs are a very tight knit community. Minorities often hold on to their identity and religion. However, there are several prominant arab christian converts. Sheikh GF Haddad is an arab christian who was born in Beruit and converted to Islam while in college.

Galilee · Jul 14, 2005

rahma said:
There are always things people don't know. However, I am learning arabic, and have my very own translator in my husband, a native arabic speaker and a buff when it comes to fiqh.

And many converts will dedicate a great amount of time to learning arabic. Some of the greatest american and westernmuslim scholars are converts who are fluent in MSA and classical arabic, such as Hamza Yusuf, Dr. Umar Abdullah Faroq, Dr. Hakim Jackson, Dr. Martin Ling, Dr. Winter, the list goes on.

i must add that personaly, i just don't trust islamic translations.
the twisting of words that i've seen in the translation of the quran into english is just unbelievable.

Christian arabs are a very tight knit community. Minorities often hold on to their identity and religion. However, there are several prominant arab christian converts. Sheikh GF Haddad is an arab christian who was born in Beruit and converted to Islam while in college.

or maybe because these arabic speaking christians know very well what islam is about.
they live it.

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