Wifely Submission to Husband: How Far Should It Go?

Electric Sceptic said:

Of course. Healthy people don't 'submit' to others. Obviously, on a given issue, one person may well 'submit' to the other. But when one person is always 'submitting', that's not healthy.

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Then we disagree. Are we amazed?!? Hee-hee!

But as a believer, when I do submit, it is a fresh decision each time. He, too, submits to me. This is the way it should be in the life we have consciously chosen. A further item that will likely drive you nuts or make you want to throw up: in 17 years of marriage, we have never fought or argued. We do, however, disagree and we debate but for the sake of reasoning, never with the intention of putting the other down.

Do I get my way? You bet! And he does, too. And when things are not working right, I pray and wait -- and yes, they end up turning out right.

Ah, we mindless, pollyanna believers . . . but what a life!

Velcro said:

Then we disagree. Are we amazed?!? Hee-hee!

But as a believer, when I do submit, it is a fresh decision each time. He, too, submits to me. This is the way it should be in the life we have consciously chosen. A further item that will likely drive you nuts or make you want to throw up: in 17 years of marriage, we have never fought or argued. We do, however, disagree and we debate but for the sake of reasoning, never with the intention of putting the other down.

Do I get my way? You bet! And he does, too. And when things are not working right, I pray and wait -- and yes, they end up turning out right.

Ah, we mindless, pollyanna believers . . . but what a life!

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You say you disagree, but then yuo describe a relationship in which one person does NOT submit to the other all the time. Why should your never having argued drive me nuts? It sounds to me like you have a healthy relationship, with out any of this harmful 'wife submits to husband' rubbish.

Woman should love their husband and husbands should love their wives.
Husbands are the head of the WIFE as Christ is the head of the church. Jesus prays and protects the church. He does dissipline the church also, but in love.
Jesus does not force his church into submission, but corrects it in Love.
When the the people step out of line they looz\s the protection of the Lord

A man who abuses his wife is unfaithfull to her. A woman who manipulates her husband with sex is unfaithfull.

God Bless

Steve

The Gregorian said:

1: You are lying. There is no possible way you've only kicked a guy in the groin once in your entire life. You may have only done it once for a good reason: i.e. the one you're suggesting... but I'll gladly bet you $5,000 that you've done it more than once.

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Gregorian: I, also, have never kicked or kneed a man in the groin in my life. I've never hit a man at all, in any way, except maybe in cases where both of us were joking and swatting at each other. The only time I ever WOULD kick a man would be if I were in serious danger and I needed to get away. I think it's awfully rich of you to accuse someone of lying about herself - what makes you so sure? You must have had some strange experiences with women, because I have never seen even a hint of this horrible kneeing and kicking epidemic that's supposedly going on.

Were we arguing? Yeah, I guess I thought we were, because I wrote that we disagree. However, I believe the whole Bible, and it does say that we are to submit to one another. To be completely honest with you, I think I do most of the submitting under normal circumstances.

Right now, however, my husband and I are going through an issue in which he needs major personal healing. In this area, I am making certain demands of him, and he is submitting, because he knows that I have more knowledge and experience with this than he does. It is a difficult area in his life, but he is growing. I really appreciate that.

Old Soul said:

And as far as the Gregorians flamboyant post in which he suggests that women are insane because he can't turn around brandishing a stick at them at night without them thinking that he's going to attack them. And thinking that he should be given a thumbs up by women for flashing them? I am sitting here shaking my head in disbelief.

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a: it was in the middle of the daytime.... in the middle of a crowded park... in the middle of a free community country music concert.... which is why both I and the women following me... were leaving. I hate country music.
b: you can't "brandish" a 1/8 inch thick 4" long stick. to brandish is to To wave or flourish (a weapon, for example) menacingly or threateningly. There is nothing that a twig of that size, and rigidity could possibly do to harm someone unless it poked you in the eye or something...
c: I could not attack them... there were three of them.... one weighed at least 100 pounds more than me.... I'm a very small man, and I was wearing a bright pink shirt that said "Tough guys wear pink" and litterally skipping down the sidewalk... as a generally rule... if someone is skipping... they will not hurt you.
d: The "flashing comment" is simply pointing out a gross doublestandard in today's modern chauvanistic society. Go to a concert that contains a mosh pit... watch for any 5 minute period of time. A woman will flash the crowd, the crowd will, as a group say "yay." The point is, the human body, is another one of god's creations, as such, a beautiful thing? Why is it women are cheered in concerts and men are thrown in jail for being a pervert?

Note to self: due to overwhelming "linear" evidence - have paramedic teams ready to apply painkillers directly into the spines of males who have been kneed in the groin - making everything below the waist completely numb for hours - actually, becuase it is far worse than childbirth - make sure they get two

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some women give birth naturally just fine... I was watching lifetime once and this woman gave birth standing up leaning on some pole thingy.... i.e. she can stand... i.e. it's not as painful as a low blow.

Again I ask, please answer this question: For those of you who have been, both hit by a car, and given birth, which is more painful? hmm?

Okay. Gregorian is having fun with us -- what you call macabre humor, tongue-in-cheek, a little truth mixed with some pretty interesting thought. Gotcha, Gregorian.[/quoet]
exactly... I'm a big fan in witty humor. Watch south park for a while... if you get past all the poop jokes and foul language there are actually VERY good moral values behind that show (especially one dealing with racism: cheff goes banananas or whatnot.... south park flag shows a bunch of white people hanging a black person... chef... being black protested to have it changed, about 3 people agreed with him that it was racist, 3 said it should stay how it is not to change history, and the entire rest of the city couldn't make up their mind, while being interviewed saying such things as "The flag is racist.. but don't change history" anywho... the children have a debate, and the "the flag should stay the same" team focused on the hanging of a "PERSON" not a "black person." and chef realized that he was the one focusing on it being a "BLACK person" being hanged... the kids didn't even notice a difference between white and black people because skin tone doesn't matter... 'cept pale people look HORRIBLE in swim suits, trust me, I know. Anyway, what I say, I do... to an extent... believe... but I'm saying it in a way that entertains myself... because People don't really talk to me much and I'm begging for attention )

A relationship where one partner - male or female - is 'submissive' to the other partner is a sick relationship.

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Then why does the bible command us to be submissive to eachother? a relationship is sick when neither partner helps eachother out, not when they both submit to eachother. I see what you were saying though... emphasis was one "one partner" being the submissive one.

fanatiquefou said:

Gregorian: I, also, have never kicked or kneed a man in the groin in my life. I've never hit a man at all, in any way, except maybe in cases where both of us were joking and swatting at each other. The only time I ever WOULD kick a man would be if I were in serious danger and I needed to get away. I think it's awfully rich of you to accuse someone of lying about herself - what makes you so sure? You must have had some strange experiences with women, because I have never seen even a hint of this horrible kneeing and kicking epidemic that's supposedly going on.

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I think you're assuming too much. You may not remember doing it, but it's VERY unlikely that you've never struck a man. Like I said before... small children don't realize they've done it... they just run up to you, and laugh because for some reason you've fallen down. Saying you've NEVER hit a man in the groin is like saying you've NEVER wet the bed... everyone has... especially when we were in diapers... and it's nothing to be ashamed of.... you're just less of a person now

Not every woman does it out of malice... but most have... every woman I've ever met has done it to someone at some point in their life... and trust me... they forget about it... it's not a big deal to beat a man... they forget about it later that day because it's OK.. we're just guys... we're your personal punching bags and there's nothing we can do about it.

On a more serious note:

If you're really a woman in an abusive relationship... leave him. Just do it. Normally when a woman is abused... she stays with the man... If you get beat up once... it's his fault, but if you stay with him IT'S BLOODY YOURS. My ex-girlfriend's sister was (and probably is) going out with a horrible excuse for a person who hits her, does drugs in front of their baby, and has even kicked a butcher knife across the room... AT the baby... We've tried getting him arrested.. we've tried kidnapping her and her baby to get her away from what will LIKELY get them both killed... but she keeps going back to him... at this point IT'S HER FAULT. She's choosing to go back, and I don't feal sorry for her (although I'd do anything to get that baby out of there.... but CPS won't do anything... cops won't do anything... no one can legally do anything because she won't press charges).

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christalee4 said:

http://www.cbeinternational.org/new/free_articles/katherine_kart.shtml

I have worked at a family shelter where we see mostly women and children from disadvantaged families over the years. Recently, I have seen more cases of abuse come in from women who are more middle class, from more religious backgrounds, who have experienced verbal and physical threats from husbands. Some of these husbands have used Biblical scripture to justify their actions, and appear to be the most unremorseful and unrepentant about their words and actions. It's most distressing because these women are clearly conflicted due to their strong religious belief and desire to stay married, but don't want to stay in a marriage that is abusive. A couple of them who came to our shelter said that they sought aid from their churches first, but were told to pray more and submit more to their husbands. I was shocked.

I wonder if this is an issue that some churches have dealt with. And also, I would be curious to see how far some Christian couples interpret the call for the husband to be at the head of his wife. Does that mean that the husband makes ALL of the decisions regardless? If the wife disagrees on an issue, and can't submit, then what happens?

My husband and I take a more egalitarian interpretation of the call to submit in marriage, and we serve and submit to each other. I would welcome your personal views and experiences.

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I urge you to read the many letters of Paul. What Paul said on this subject was not a tradition. It is a requirement for the Godly husbands and wives.
Think of it as a trade off. His love and respect for her love and submission.

Am I God to answer such questions?
Paul says for the husbands and wives to be an example to such un-believers as these.
Does the Holy Sririt of God want you to do something as a Godly act of protection for you child? Or do you just dis-agree with physical punnishment? Is you child being beaten or is he being taught a lesson by the use of phsyical chastisement? Decern from the scriptures with the help of the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ on these questions.

serious post: Above authority, the bible makes clear that love is the driving force in both society, faith, and a relationship.

If the Husband tells the wife to do something out of love, she should do it... If the Husband tells his wife to do something that isn't good for her, he has no authority.

Example: If a husband asks his wife not to go to her parents house ever again... because her father is a drunk who will likely harm her..... she should listen to him. If a husband asks his wife not to go to her parents house ever again... because they know that he's a drunk that will likely harm her and that they will take her away from him, then he has no authority.

It's my understanding that the bible is based partially on social acceptance... At the time, it WAS considered shameful for a woman to speak in public... which is why the bible tells women not to speak in public.... because if she did at the time, she would be considered a prostitute, and stoned in some areas. That part doesn't apply today because women aren't items that should be ruled over and exchanged as currency, so it's A-OK for women to speak in public. Therefore, the opposite of the above statement is true as well. Anything a wife asks of her husband out of love, he should do... anything she asks of him out of greed, or some unloving motive, negates her authority, and he need not do it.

::and... back to being an idiot::

Accept making sammiches. Women should make me a sammich so I can eat it, because I LOVE sammiches.

christalee4 said:

Yes, I understand that churches cannot provide shelters - but as you suggested MamaBear, a place to go that offers SUPPORT, and not just a gentle shove out the door. Referrals to shelters could be made, as well as volunteers who could offer a warm shoulder and spiritual support. Yes, it's a dangerous world out there and if enough committed Christians took a stand against this issue, there could be more lives saved from trauma and a lifetime of painful memories - for both women and children.

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Just curious, you keep saying the church isn't doing enough-just what do you want them to do? PPl have shared what their churches do in case of DV, but that doesn't seem good enough for you

~Georgiana thanks for the aftrenoon laugh. you had me laughing at the stick, and the girls running from you! Are you still in High school?

A social worker who has worked in a battered women's shelter told me today that in cases where the woman is reluctant to leave people who want to help should put her in touch with someone from a battered women's shelter.

They are familiar with such reluctance and may be able to supply the support the woman needs to feel empowered to leave an abusive husband.

christalee4 said:

Okay, on the issue of a wife stepping in to stop her husband from physically punishing a child, in the case in which it has gone on for longer than five minutes and the child appears to be in great pain. 1) Is it permissible for a father to exert physical chastisement in that manner - hitting with a belt that leave bruises, welts and lacerations? And 2) Since the wife stepped in to prevent more harm from happening to the child, is she guilty of usurping her husband's authority? If so, how should the husband handle the disobedience? In your opinion.

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My humble opinion again, after I'd said I was going to close my mouth (for a while.) But I think parents are to be their children's protectors and if one is abusive, it is the other's responsibility to protect them. I know that is hard because usually when one spouse abuses the children they also abuse the other spouse - if not physically you can almost bet they are verbally abusive. That makes it very hard to deal with, no matter if the abuser is the husband or the wife. What helped me understand my responsibility in that situation was to imagine Jesus standing there watching. What would he want me to do? Where is He in my pain? Just being aware of Jesus' presence helps to gather the courage to reach past the flying belt and rescue the child. Then when the fires have simmered down some serious talking needs to be done. That can be done with love and tenderness, in all submission. Approaching an angry spouse with any other kind of attitude will only pour more fuel to the fire. Believe me. I know, and I also know that with God all things are possible. He will give the wife the words to say and the loving attitude to say them with, if we only ask. That is the only way to get out of such a situation.

The Gregorian said:

I think you're assuming too much. You may not remember doing it, but it's VERY unlikely that you've never struck a man. Like I said before... small children don't realize they've done it... they just run up to you, and laugh because for some reason you've fallen down. Saying you've NEVER hit a man in the groin is like saying you've NEVER wet the bed... everyone has... especially when we were in diapers... and it's nothing to be ashamed of.... you're just less of a person now

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Nope. Never done it. My parents would NEVER have encouraged or allowed me to do something like that