So You Lutheran??

ROTFLOL!

You might get more Mass- like if you go to an Episcopal service.

Off hand, do remember if it was an ELCA or LCMS church? What color was the big hymnal?

We are called Catholic- lite for a reason. All the forgiveness with half the guilt.

When it comes to the confession, we have what is called 'the Office of the Keys.' The pastor is a called and ordained minister in the church of Christ. He has the ability to pronounce your sins forgiven by Christ's authority. That means he speaks audibly on Christ's/ God's behalf. The pastor is not the one doing the actual forgiving. But because what we loose(forgive) on earth is loosed in heaven, and what we bind(do not forgive) on earth is bound in heaven, we can be compelled to declare forgiveness. (as a priesthood of believers)

As far as clear wine, this congregation probably used grape juice. Most congregations will provide both wine and grapejuice. We have grapejuice in the center of the tray, and use red wine in the outer rings of the tray.

I don't know exactly why the minister chuckled. Maybe it was obvious in your demeanor that you weren't familiar with the Lutheran liturgy.

One of the differences between Mass and Lutheran is that you won't find the wine witheld from Lutheran laity.
The Lord's Prayer recited in the Lutheran church is the longer version. (Catholics stop with 'but deliver us from evil.'
The Lutheran church teaches that we are saved by faith. (in Jesus)
There are more, and I will let my Lutheran brethren come along and answer more of this.

Phoebe said:

The Lutheran church teaches that we are saved by faith. (in Jesus)

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The Catholic church teaches this too You're right, the two are very similar (Martin Luther was after all, originally, a Catholic priest )

Blessings

Phoebe did a fine job covering the differences.

Most Lutheran pastors still wear traditional robes, and some even change into vestments before Holy Communion.

Phoebe does a fine job describing the Office of the Keys. Along with that, the pastor is pronouncing the Gospel of Jesus Christ when he prounounces absolution of sins by Christ's authority (for Lutherans, forgiveness is a condition, not an act; by grace alone through faith alone for Christ's sake, we are justified freely by God, and since we are justified, our sins are forgiven, absolution is another pronouncement of that fact).

Here's two ways absolution is declared (from the LBW [green book]):

Almighty God, in his mercy, has given his Son to die for us and, for his sake God forgives us all our sins. As a called and ordained minister of the Church of Christ, and by his authority, I therefore declare to you the entire forgiveness of all your sins, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

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or

In the mercy of almighty God, Jesus Christ was given to die for you, and for his sake God forgives you all your sins. To those who believe in Jesus Christ he gives the power to become the children of God and bestows on them the Holy Spirit

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I forget how it is pronounced in the LCMS, but it is very similar.

Another difference between Lutheran and Catholic services is that you will find no reference to a sacrifice on our part during the Words of Institution. I believe Roman Catholics call it the Words of Consecration, but I might be wrong.

Acceptance,

I'm not trying to pick a fight, because I'm about to go to bed, but unfortunately, Lutherans and Roman Catholics may both say we teach salvation by faith in Christ, but if one looks at the definitions of all the words and doctrines involved, they are radically different, and mutually exclusive.

For instance, compare the two doctrines of original sin or grace (gratia infusa (RCC) vs. gratuitis Dei favor (Lutheran)). Those two doctrines alone affect every other one: freedom of the will, conversion (the bestowal of faith), faith, justification, sanctification, the Sacraments, the church, election, eschatology, etc., and I'm barely scratching the surface.

However, we both agree on the Trinity, and that's a good starting place. And that Jesus Christ is Savior, the best starting place.

Oh, if you want to compare our two teachings, compare the Formula of Concord to the Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent. A lot of Lutherans and Catholics will be shocked to see how different we are, despite JDDJ, which is a very weak document.

Something I not when I got to Mass at a Catholic Church, they don't ever finish the hymns. But really there isn't all that much difference. Let me see if I can clear up some confusion:

1. The Introit of the services are the same (That is the processionary entrance). With a hymn. (Lutherans light altar candles)
2. Then we both begin in the Name of Father, Son and Holy Ghost
3. The Lutheran Church will then do confession, whereas in the RC it is thought of that you already did it.
4. Then both Masses proceed with the Kyrie, and the Gloria in Excelsis.
5. Thereafter, the first collect (prayer) is said.
6. Then the Lutheran Church does prayer concerns and maybe a choir anthem
7. Then the a reading from the prophet is lectored
8. A psalm is read or sung
9. A reading from an Epistle
10. The Gospel of the Lord is read (both churches will say the "Glory to you, O Lord" and the "Praise to you, O Christ"; yet the Lutheran church sings the "Lord to whom shall we go")
11. After the Gospel the Lutheran Church will sing more
12. After which, the Sermon is had in the Lutheran Church and the Homily in the Catholic
13. The Lutheran Church will sing even more
14. Then the profession of faith (creeds)
15. An offering is taken (the Lutheran Church sings yet even more)
16. The elements are uncovered on the Altar or brought forth
17. The Verba is said
18. Sanctus/Benidictus qui venit are sung
19. Lord's prayer is said (In the Lutheran Church with the Thine is the kingdom..., however, the Catholic church does it too, but differently still.)
20. Pax (the lord's peace)
21. Communing (Both churches with both species if so desired) (Singing again)
22. Final Collect
23. Salutation
24. Benedicamus
25. Benediction (MORE SINGING!)

Now in the Catholic Liturgy there is some more differentiation in the process of the Verba, I dont' understand that too well yet.

Also the end result is different, the Catholic church transubstanciates the elements, whereas the Lutheran Church has a Real Pressence of Christ in the Elements.

Luther only resolved the abuses in the Mass, but he kept the Mass, for the Mass is a sacred and very spiritual tool! There are few differences indeed. Yet the Lutheran Mass only happens on Sunday, midweek services etc. are all different. Festival Days might have a Mass too, but it gets complex.


Also, the Lutheran Church sings way more. We even have musical settings for the Verba, and the Prayers (collects and Lord's).

Phoebe said:

ROTFLOL!

One of the differences between Mass and Lutheran is that you won't find the wine witheld from Lutheran laity.

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I don't think that I have ever had the blood of Christ withheld at a Sunday Mass. At daily Mass they usally only offer the Body of Christ at our Parish.

I so miss the Liturgy now that I attend an Evangelical Free Church

http://www.lutheran-hymnal.com/online/page5.html

Cary.Melvin said:

I don't think that I have ever had the blood of Christ withheld at a Sunday Mass. At daily Mass they usally only offer the Body of Christ at our Parish.

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However the Catholic Church does teach that one can be fully communed with just one species. A great many I see don't take the blood, yet, it is offered as you point out. The main point is, it wasn't when Luther split also, that both species constitutes a full communion. However, the reforms to the Catholic Mass have been extensive since the split, they have become quite Lutheran in thier worship with regards to Common Language, Hymns, both species, etc.

tigersnare said:

Seriously though, what is difference about the Catholic "Mass" and the Lutheran service?

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While there are many significant theological differences between Roman Catholics and Lutherans...I think these are not readily apparent in the liturgy alone. You'd have to look very critically at the nuances to unearth the things of significance.

For example...when the Catholics congregation pronouces at the preparation of the altar "May the Lord accept the sacrifice at your hands for the praise and glory of his name, for our good, and the good of all his Church." This might go right past a person...but this refers to what theologia crucis identified as the re-sacrifice of Christ...which Catholics believe and Lutherans do not. And the whole transubstantiation thing is not at all transparent in the liturgy alone.

The Catholics do offer a confession of sorts (penitential rite) at the beginning of the mass (just before the Liturgy of the Word) and the priest does say "May almighty God have mercy on us, forgive us our sins, and bring us to everlasting life." but I do not know if this counts as absolution. The Lutheran aspect of this has already explained. Again...on the surface...they both look pretty much the same.

IMHO, I think the significant differences for the most part lie below the surface of the liturgy.

I am glad you liked the liturgy...I think I would miss it if I never had any more exposure to it but I find it difficult to concentrate on the words each Sunday to keep the service meaningful. Sometimes, since the words have long been committed to memory, the words want to run out of my mouth bypassing my brain and I start thinking about other things.

Peace
Rose

What is the Westminister?

theologia crucis said:

Acceptance, I'm not trying to pick a fight, because I'm about to go to bed, but unfortunately, Lutherans and Roman Catholics may both say we teach salvation by faith in Christ, but if one looks at the definitions of all the words and doctrines involved, they are radically different, and mutually exclusive.

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EEEEP! I hope I wasn't misunderstood. I didn't mean to say anything to cause a tiff.

Yes, I know there are differences in the theology between Lutherans and Catholics (I wish we were united SO! badly). I only wanted to clarify that Catholics do believe that faith in Christ saves you, as well as emphasize that there's a reason the OP saw similarities between the two churches.

Peace in Christ!

Acceptance said:

EEEEP! I hope I wasn't misunderstood. I didn't mean to say anything to cause a tiff.

Yes, I know there are differences in the theology between Lutherans and Catholics (I wish we were united SO! badly). I only wanted to clarify that Catholics do believe that faith in Christ saves you, as well as emphasize that there's a reason the OP saw similarities between the two churches.

Peace in Christ!

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I knew what you meant, and I knew that remark would get someone's attention.
I was avoiding saying "faith alone" since the word alone doesn't actually appear in Scripture. Luther thought it was implied.
I won't take any offense at your commentary.
(sorry about the witholding the wine from the laity- that was a long time ago- it is offered now)

Tiger, you can purchase Luther's Large Cathechism at a bookstore. It will show Luther's view on The Ten Commandments, Holy Communion, Baptism, and the Apostle's Creed, and The Lord's Prayer.

Acceptance said:

EEEEP! I hope I wasn't misunderstood. I didn't mean to say anything to cause a tiff.

Yes, I know there are differences in the theology between Lutherans and Catholics (I wish we were united SO! badly). I only wanted to clarify that Catholics do believe that faith in Christ saves you, as well as emphasize that there's a reason the OP saw similarities between the two churches.

Peace in Christ!

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My bad. I didn't mean to hijack the thread. And if anyone said anything to cause a tiff, it was me.

I too, wish ALL Christians were truly united.

And, our liturgies (Lutheran and Catholic) are really quite close, overall. There's a section somewhere in Luther's Table Talk (if I remember right) that says that there was a Catholic visitor to Wittenberg in the 1530's, and the visitor couldn't tell the difference between the Lutheran service and a Catholic one! And that's still relatively true today!

However, I was hoping to pique someone (anyone!) into realizing the big differences between the two (and others as well), and maybe get somebody thinking on how to solve them. I sure can't figure out how to! Catholics aren't going to budge one inch of Trent or the Vatican counsels (or any of the other doctrinal statements) anytime soon, and confessional Lutherans aren't going to give up one sentence of the Book of Concord, either!



tigersnare,

You can find the Large Catechism (as well as all of the Lutheran confessions) here: http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=522

or here: www.bookofconcord.org

That could save you a buck or two! (Not to take any money away from CPH or Augsburg Fortress!!!)

The Large Catechism is a great place to start, as is the Augsburg Confession or the Epitome of the Formula of Concord. They're all relatively short and concise and easy to understand.

I'll go back into hiding now...

I'm glad you all are so understanding -- sorry about the confusion

Ahem!!!



www.elca.org is the site for the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. (Norwegian)