christalee4 said:And Kasey, you still have not responded with a practical solution on how you can determine if a potential mate for your children is a racially pure white person, other than just making a subjective judgement based on your idea about ideal white racial visage. As you had stated before, this country, which has brought in nationalities from all kinds of places, has been perversely mixing in an ungodly fashion for the past 100 years. How can you exactly know who is truly whiter than snow, or who has some mongrel mix in their background? Would you request that your children's potential mate submit to a genetic test, in case you weren't sure?
well for this lurker... to me the arguments have gotten lost in the pile and are resorting back to "you're ridiculous" and "you're wrong" assertions.Ledifni said:Thanks guys, I do my best. The main reason I'm here is so that lurkers won't read Kasey's posts and imagine he's making some telling points. I doubt I'll change his mind but at least I can demonstrate that he's not worth following.
levi501 said:well for this lurker... to me the arguments have gotten lost in the pile and are resorting back to "you're ridiculous" and "you're wrong" assertions.
levi501 said:My morality isn't derived from the bible. So in that regard, I don't care what it says about interacial marriage. Although, I wouldn't put it past it to say something against the mixing the races.
levi501 said:Without going back and reading the entire thread(umm..no) it's hard to find your post where you initially tear apart his interpretations of the hebrew translations.
Ledifni said:As I clearly showed, your verses don't "state" anything of the sort. They state various things, but not one forbids interracial marriage. The one that best supports your position says merely that if the daughter of a priest marries outside of Israel, she is barred from that particular rite. No punishment, no condemnation, no command to do otherwise.
And as I further clearly stated, I don't care what the Bible says about it. So here we have: You can't defend your position from the Bible. You don't know how to use the Bible and much as you pretend to, you do not understand Hebrew. Furthermore, even if you could defend your position, it would have no effect on me. If you somehow managed to find a proof of your position in the Bible (I would be very surprised, but anything is possible), it would serve only to prove to me that the Bible is as evil as you are.
Given all that, I can't help but laugh at your great zeal and eagerness to dredge something, anything out of the Bible to prove that your racism is a good thing. But have fun, man! It's certainly fun to watch!
Ledifni said:LOL -- You are truly amazing!
You know, in the post you replied to I did not make one single claim about Adam and Eve. In fact, I specifically said, "Forget Adam and Eve." I said that whether or not Adam and Eve were the first people on Earth, Noah came afterwards and the Bible said that all people died but Noah and his family.
Yet you spend your entire reply trying to "refute" me by saying, "Adam and Eve were NOT the first people on Earth! That's a moot point!"
Do you realize how ridiculous you make yourself look?
Ledifni said:Actually, I am a student of the Bible, and have been all my life -- both as a Christian and after I became an atheist. And judging from your performance here, I'm quite a better student of the Bible than you are
Ledifni said:Well... that's because he hasn't addressed anyone else's arguments, but simply insists that we haven't addressed his(when in fact, the arguments he refused to address were our responses to his arguments).
It can certainly be interpreted that way. But it can also be interpreted otherwise, which is the point of this thread. Oddly enough, Kasey has regressed to simply saying that his interpretation is a possible one, which nobody in this thread denies as far as I know. He seems to have forgotten that his duty here is to prove his claim that his interpretation is the only valid one.
You won't find it because it doesn't exist. I haven't argued that his translations are wrong, but that they don't matter because while the Bible does use the word that means "mixed-race," it doesn't say that mixed-race couples are against God.
The entire point of this thread, at least from my point of view, is to prove that (1) Kasey's ideas about family planning are unworkable and (2) that one can believe in the Bible without being racist. I think I've shown both of those to be true, as follows:
1) Kasey cannot provide any workable set of criteria for determining a person's race. He says that "everybody knows" what a black person is or what a white person is, and claims that he can tell on sight whether somebody is black or white. When asked how, he says, "It's obvious." When anyone asks how he will screen his children's suitors, he ignores it. When anyone asks how he knows he isn't mixed-race, he ignores it. When anyone asks how he knows that black people and white people aren't both descended from Shem, he ignores it. Essentially, he ignores any question or comment that might cause problems for his neat "everybody knows who I'm talking about" method of discrimination. This, I think, clearly shows that his ideas are unworkable.
2) Kasey argues that his interpretation of the Bible -- that it commands us to keep the races pure and avoid perverted and abominable miscegenation -- is the only possible one. While I am less inclined to address this argument since I feel Biblical arguments are incorrect anyway, I think I've consistently shown that his "proofs" don't actually prove anything. They are possible interpretations, yes, but not the only ones. I'm not going to list every post I've made in this thread to counter each of his ridiculous attempts at proving his points, but there are several of them in the past few pages that you could look over, if you're really interested in why Kasey's arguments from the Bible don't prove his point.
Kasey said:SHow me the post # where I havent addressed what other people have said? Can you do that? If your going to call me a liar and say that I havent, then you need to prove it. Show me what I havent addressed please.
I have proven it. I have given my sources, what sources have "YOU" given? Ive gone according to the experts. Ive gone according to Strong's Concordance and Gesenius' Hebrew-CHaldee LExicon. I have also gone according to the context of scripture, that Adam and Eve were not the first people on Earth.
You never want to touch that part dont you? You revert back and say..."its a moot point!". NO ITS NOT!. If Adam and Eve were created as the progenitors of mankind, then EVERYTHING that I have said would be a lie for there would be no actual concept of race nor specific kinds of human beings just as their are concerning the animal and plant-life being AFTER THEIR KIND!.
Ooooooh, I see. So you admit that the translations are correct. Wow, thanks. So now we have THAT part out of the way. By your own words, YOU ADMIT that mixed-race as in racial lineage is in the Bible. Thanks. However, you say that mixed-race couples, as in marriages arent against God. Hmm, well, thats a contradiction because you can only get a mongrel child FROM a inter-mixed racaial couple and that child is barred from entering into the congregation of the Lord in Dueteronomy 23:2. Because they are, that means that the parents are an accomplice to their child being that way and that means that they are responsible and therefore, how can you justifiably say that God is not against interracial marriage when God is obviously against the result of that marriage?
In addition, you COMPLETELY ignore Leviticus Leviticus 22:12-1. It speaks of a woman, being the daughter of a priest, going out and marrying a "zuwr" strangeer, which according to the Hebrew, means a foreign, alien, adutlerative, out-landish individual. It states SPECIFICALLY that if she is married, she cant eat of the holy thing, but if she is DIVORCED and has NO CHILD, then she can come back. However, what is the context of even all this? What difference does it make? Why does the Bible use "NO CHILD" if its not an interracially mixed couple?
Its Leviticus 22:3 with the word "seed". According to The New Strong's Expanded Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, at page 78 of the Hebrew index, under 2233, its the Hebrew word "zera" and it means sowing, seed. It means OFFSPRING. According to the context of Genesis 3:15 with Eve's seed, and the fact that Adam and Eve were not the first people on earth, its talking in a RACIAL context!
According to Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon, under page 254-255, under 2233, it says that this word means OFFSPRING, PROGENY, DESCENDANTS, STOCK, RACE, FAMILY, A RACE OF MEN.
If Adam and Eve were NOT the first people on earth, then this PROVES that Adam and Eve were of a SPECIFIC race of human beings and therefore, contextually, the word means RACIAL LINEAGE when used of the sons of Aaron! They were of a specific race of men!
This is why if she was divorced and HAD NO CHILD!
Now, this was speaking to the Levites, I do not dispute that, however 1 Peter 2:9 states that CHristians, the Elect according to 1 Peter 1:1-2, are ROYAL PRIESTHOOD. Therefore, this proves that this statute is applicable to Christians today.
I rest my case. This PROOVES it all!
I deal with the Bible FIRST. I will deal with the rest later.
Thats just right, you "FEEL". Thats your basis. That doesnt hold up to anything. You havent shown ANYTHING that proves me wrong. You didnt even name your sources, I HAVE!
You want a basis for where its specifically commanded NOT to mix your race? Its Leviticus 22:12-13. This is taken into context with the fact of Adam and Eve were not the first people on earth, which you have "SPECIFICALLY" stated to be a moot point, which it is not, therefore, no one can trust your words, for in order to destroy some one's credibility, you must address the foundation of their arugment and Adam and Eve are the foundation.
Oh, I challenge you to get around that word "seed" there in the context of Leviticus 22:12-13. ADDRESS THAT! Address on how this doesnt mean a racial couple according to the Hebrew! Ive given my sources, now lets see what you have to say! Ive gotten very specific and YOU yourself has SPECIFICALLY stated that the translations that I have shown ARE NOT WRONG. Therefore, get yourself out of this one. I completely and wholly wait with great anticipation. . .
mhatten said:Well at this point Kasey you surely have not addressed my asking you to classify Halle Berry. I provided a picture and everything. I want to know your criteria; a,b,c,d for identifying people of a given race. Also what are the races in your view, black, white, asian, what else?
i.e to be Asian you must have that distinct Asian slant to your eyes and straight black hair, or to be black you must have a broad nose, some flavor of brown skin, and coarse hair texture etc.
I am going to post another picture can you tell me the race of this person:
Kasey said:I have specifically stated that I am dealing with the Bible "first" and that I would deal with the rest later. Lets stick to the subject matter please.
What good does the bible do you if you have no idea how you are to determine what it is that is wrong? Your claim that the bible says that inter-racial marriage is an abomination aside, how can you follow a rule when you can't determine what race someone is?Kasey said:I have specifically stated that I am dealing with the Bible "first" and that I would deal with the rest later. Lets stick to the subject matter please.
Kasey said:I have specifically stated that I am dealing with the Bible "first" and that I would deal with the rest later. Lets stick to the subject matter please.
Danhalen said:What good does the bible do you if you have no idea how you are to determine what it is that is wrong? Your claim that the bible says that inter-racial marriage is an abomination aside, how can you follow a rule when you can't determine what race someone is?
mhatten said:I view this as a cop-out because you do not have an answer. I stated earlier on that if you are against inter-racial marriage more power to you. I am strictily interested in how you determine the races and since ther are clearly no guidelines for this in the Bible I just want to know your criteria.
Kasey said:Thats how "you" view it, but that doesnt mean that it is. Stick to the subject matter, please. Just because I dont asnwer your specific question right off the bat or anything in that regard doesnt mean that I dont have an answer. I specifically told you that I will address this later, after what has already been the main topic in this and that is "Is the Bible for or against interracial marriage?"
However, there is a guide-line for it in the Bible, have you ever bothered to look up the word "kind' in Genesis 1?
Logic about same race marriage
Same race marriage should be banned because procreation without adaptation is harmful to society, to the parents and child, and to the gene pool. Without interracial marriages, the phenotype of the population remains the same, leaving this population stagnant and with a lack of genetic development and adaptation. This means that children from same race marriages add nothing to society while using up resources and part of the workforce by taking time away from the people that need to take care of them. In order to promote continuous adaptation of the whole of society, all marriages must be interracial and anything else should be illegal.
Interracial marriages also create a new generation of people who are not as prejudiced against people of other races because they gain tolerance for different races and cultures since they have been exposed and are apart of more then one. If someone is raised while experiencing and being a member of one group and one group only, when exposed to a second group it is likely they will be prejudiced against it. If someone is raised in two different groups, when exposed to a third they are more likely to be accepting of it because they wont think that there is only one right group, but that there could be many right groups. If interracial marriages had been the way everyone was raised for the past 100 years, the Civil Rights movement would have been much less painful for society in its entirety. Racial tension in the present also would be much more relaxed allowing for a more peaceful, tolerant and positive society.