Mary during Mass

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kern

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Some protestants make a big deal about the supposed "Mary worship" in the Catholic church and such.

I haven't been to many masses since I started going to church again, but I don't recall any mention of Mary except for the line in the Nicene Creed about the virgin birth. Is this standard, or are there some churches that emphasize it more? (The church I go to is called "St. Mary's", as was the church I went to as a child. Eerie....)

-Chris
 

Wolseley

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She's also mentioned in the Eucharistic prayers, "that we may be worthy to share heaven with Mary, the Virgin Mother of God"; but unless the Litany of the Saints is recited at Mass, she's really never mentioned.
 
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VOW

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She's also mentioned in the "Confetior" (or however you spell it, LOL)

"I confess, to Almighty God,
that I have sinned, through my own fault,
in my thoughts, and in my words,
in what I have done, and what I have failed to do.
And I ask Blessed Mary, Ever-Virgin,
And all the Angels and Saints,
And you, my Brothers and Sisters,
To pray for me to the Almighty God."

I love that prayer!



Peace be with you,
~VOW
 
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One of the problems is with Priests who get rather *zealous* in their Marian devotion, to the point in letting it run the Mass.

I get EWTN, the Catholic network, and I watch Daily Mass from time to time; especially when I have been prevented from celebrating the Eucharist for some reason. One of the Priests, Father Augustine Mary if my memory serves, has often (though not always!) concluded the General Intercessions (i.e., Prayers of the People) with a saying like this:

We make all these our prayers to Christ by the power of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, and we unite our voices with hers in prayer as we say, Hail Mary, etc...

This is, frankly, not a limited phenemonon on EWTN, many parishes practice similar things (my parish growing up did!) but they usually closet them away at a weekday Mass.

Father Rob
Anglican Catholic
 
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Evan

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I have been reading that the pope and certain jesuits are strongly promoting Mary as co-redeemer with Christ in our salvation. What I have been reading I don't like at all. It goes something like this; Mary was weeping at the cross because she was suffering for our sins as Jesus was. It all seems very blasphemous!

I think it's called Mary Co-redemptrix theology.
 
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VOW

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To Evan:

Wolseley has explained in a prior post that the "co-redeemer" nomenclature in describing Mary is based on Latin terminology. In this case, "Co-" is derived from the Latin word for "with." And the intention is that Mary's role is subservient to that of Christ. Mary's entire life was to point the way to Jesus. Misunderstandings occur when people take the present-day understanding of "Co-" to mean "equal with." That is not the intention here. Mary cannot, and never will be equivalent to, or a substitute for Christ.


Peace be with you,
~VOW
 
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ZooMom

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Mary's suffering at the Crucifixtion was prophesied.

Luke 2
34Then Simeon blessed them and said to Mary, his mother: "This child is destined to cause the falling and rising of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be spoken against, 35so that the thoughts of many hearts will be revealed. And a sword will pierce your own soul too."


She was suffering with Him. Because she loved Him, as her God and Savior, and as her Son. But her sufferings are not what redeemed us. Only Christ's did that.
 
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Evan

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Vow,

I am so glad to hear you say that! That is really a relief.

Because what I have been reading is something entirely different. I went back and found what I read and here it is:

1997-APR-9: During an audience Pope John-Paul II referred to the role of Mary during the crucifixion of Jesus: "Mary … co-operated during the event itself and in the role of mother; thus her co-operation embraces the whole of Christ’s saving work. She alone was associated in this way with the redemptive sacrifice that merited the salvation of all mankind. In union with Christ and in submission to him, she collaborated in obtaining the grace of salvation for all humanity...In God’s plan, Mary is the ‘woman’ (cf. John 2:4; John 19:26), the New Eve, united to the New Adam in restoring humanity to its original dignity. Her cooperation with her Son continues for all time in the universal motherhood which she enjoys in the order of grace. Trusting in this maternal cooperation, let us turn to Mary, imploring her help in all our needs." This is from "Rome says Mary is Co-redeemer, mediator, advocate," Way of Life, at: http://www.whidbey.net/~dcloud/fbns/marycoredeemer.htm

Although Mary has been referred to on numerous occasions as co-redemptrix, mediatrix, and advocate, none have the force of an infallible papal declaration.

Professor Mark Miravalle of Franciscan University in Steubenville, OH, initiated a formal petition drive in 1993 during a Marian conference at that university. It asks the Pope to make infallible statement that would officially elevate Mary, the mother of Jesus, to the status of co-redeemer. More than six million signatures from 148 countries have reached the Vatican as of the end of the year 2000, asking that Pope John Paul II infallibly declare a new dogma: "That the Virgin Mary is a co-redeemer with Jesus and co-operates fully with her son in the redemption of humanity."

If this were done, "she would be a vastly more powerful figure, something close to the fourth member of the Holy Trinity and the primary female face through which Christians experience the divine." (Vatican II, "Dogmatic Constitution of the Church," Chapter 8, II, 62, Pages 382 & 383.) Miravalle's petition has received support from Mother Theresa, 550 bishops, Cardinal John O'Connor and 41 other cardinals (including at least 12 cardinals in Rome). If the dogma is declared infallibly, it would pronounce Mary as "Co-Redemptrix [co-redeemer], Mediatrix [mediator] of All Graces, and Advocate for the People of God." It would require all Roman Catholics to believe that:

Mary is co-redemptrix with Jesus. She participates in people's redemption.

Mary is mediatrix and has the power to grant all graces.

Mary is the advocate for the people of God and has the authority to influence God's judgments.

This of course is not what you and ZooMom are saying.
 
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ZooMom

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If this were done, "she would be a vastly more powerful figure, something close to the fourth member of the Holy Trinity and the primary female face through which Christians experience the divine." (Vatican II, "Dogmatic Constitution of the Church," Chapter 8, II, 62, Pages 382 & 383.)
There is no 'fourth member' of the Holy Trinity (or it wouldn't be a Trinity), and the day that the Church supports Mary as such is the day Satan sells popsicles in hell.

The rest, however, I have to say that I agree with. Please bear in mind the connotations of the prefix "co-" as VOW explained it to you. I believe you are still reading the article above with the conception that 'co-' means 'equal to'. Many people do, which is why this will probably never be formally approved by the Church. While we Catholics may understand and agree with the 'Co-' status of Mary, the title is extremely confusing and inflammatory to non-Catholics. And while the Church wishes to honor Mary for the 'great things' God has done for her, She has no desire to further ostracize her Protestant brethren. So don't sweat it. :)
 
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VOW

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To Evan:

No, she's not going to be the fourth hand of the Trinity.

Mary has a wonderful assortment of Titles. No other human being has ever played such a critical role for mankind. (and I mean completely human, NOT 100% human, 100% divine, like Jesus) It was through a woman that Sin entered our lives, and it was through a woman that we achieved a Redeemer. That is why Mary is called "the New Eve." She's also called the "Ark of the New Covenant."

There's an incredible amount of Biblical research that has gone into the study of Mary. She was much, much more than most people realize. You don't have to be Catholic to read some of these things and appreciate the symbology that is here.


Peace be with you,
~VOW
 
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Evan

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I think Mary was a godly saint and very honored by God but that's it. There is no mention of a New Eve in the bible. Is there? Pls give me the site.

I see mention of a Second Adam, Jesus Christ. Mary's participation in our redemption is as much as her father, grandfather and great grandfathers participation. She was born. God did choose her but He chose John the Baptist and many others too.

Jesus said of John the Baptist "Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist...MAT 11:11

But this doesn't mean that John was Co-Redemptrix with Christ in our salvation by being beheaded, or that he is "entitled" to special veneration because Christ said he was greater than Mary and all others who were ever born. John was a sinner, so was Mary. God had mercy on both of them, just like He had mercy on you and me.

Let's praise God, not Mary or John or anyone else.

Why is there any talk about Co-redeemers, at all? Where is this coming from?
 
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Annabel Lee

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Mary cooperated in the redemptive work in a way quite special way. She became the bearer of the Son given to her by the Father through the power of the Holy Spirit.
Simply..She said yes. Mary is not just a vessel. She was chosen by God.
She is not just the mother of Jesus to Catholics.She is the Mother of God.

"My soul magnifies the Lord,
and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
because He has regarded the lowliness of His handmaid;
for, behold, henceforth all generations shall call me blessed;
because He who is mighty has done great things for me
and holy is His name."

Peace,
Annabel
 
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VOW

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To Evan:

Mary as "New Eve" isn't spelled out N-E-W E-V-E in the Bible, any more than Trinity is. Mary's existence PARALLELS that of Eve. Through Woman, sin entered the world, Through Woman, redemption entered the world. Eve used free will to disobey God, Mary used free will to obey. There are some fantastic Catholic sites on the Internet where you can research this, the Biblical arguments are powerful and inspiring.

"Mediatrix" is a term used to describe Mary's intercession for us in prayer. She occupies a very unique place in the life of Jesus. Almost everyone can identify how important a mother is, and can recognize the respect and love that is felt towards a mother long after childhood is passed. Jesus certainly must have felt that love towards His mother. How can we not feel the same?

Catholics like to point to the first miracle of Jesus, the wedding at Cana, to illustrate this very special role of Mary in her Son's life. She became aware of the problem, the host had run out of wine. She went to her Son, and asked Him to help. She certainly didn't expect him to make a midnight run to 7-11 to pick up a few bottles of wine! She KNEW Jesus had the power of miracles available to Him. He, in turn, said, "It is not yet My time." Did she then go to the host, and say, "Oh, sorry, my mistake." Did she apologize for bothering her Son?

No. She listened to what Jesus had to say, "It is not yet My time," and then turned right around and summoned the servants. And Jesus performed His first miracle.

Now that sounds like a mother's request was pretty special to Jesus.

However, even MORE than how He respected His mother's request, we should look to the example that MARY gave to us in this instance. She went to the servants and told them, "Do whatever He tells you to."

Yes, we can go to Mary with our requests for her intercession in prayer. And we can look to her for the comfort of a mother. And we also need to be prepared for her to tell us: "Do whatever He tells you to."


Peace be with you,
~VOW
 
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Evan

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Vow,

Just as you say there is no New Eve in the bible, there is also no command or request for you to seek Mary to pray for you or comfort you. You are abandoning Scripture again in favor of teachings from men.

You are commanded to go directly to the Father and pray and receive comfort from God alone. That is all.

Now there were some in Jesus day who felt the same way about Mary that you do today.

LUK 11:27 ¶ While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, "Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed."

But Jesus had to rebuke them.

LUK 11:28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

So we who hear the Word of God and obey it are the ones that are really the blessed ones. Not the ones who hear the words of man and keep them.
 
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VOW

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To Evan:

Just as you say there is no New Eve in the bible, there is also no command or request for you to seek Mary to pray for you or comfort you. You are abandoning Scripture again in favor of teachings from men.

<sigh>

You haven't got the full story here.

We are directed to pray for one another in the Bible. And since we believe that all Christians, alive and dead, are alive in Christ, it is possible for those who have died, such as Mary and the Saints, to intercede on our behalf and pray with us to God. It's extremely Scriptural.

Do a forum search on "praying to Saints." This topic has been covered extensively in the past.

As far as "feelings about Mary," it is the teaching of the Church that as Jesus was dying on the Cross and He looked upon His mother's suffering with compassion, He turned her over to the care of the disciple He loved, John. His words at that time were "Behold your mother," and then to Mary, "Woman, behold your son." It was then that Jesus not only gave the responsibility and care to John, but by using the non-specific term, "Woman," He was also giving His mother to mankind. That is why Mary is referred to as "the Mother of Mankind." We are Children of God through adoption, and as God's children, we share in enjoying Mary as our Mother.

The woman in Revelation in Heaven, with the crown of twelve stars, is also taught by the Church to be Mary.

Catholics don't worship Mary. We honor her, revere her, and love her, as a Mother to us all.


Peace be with you,
~VOW
 
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Evan

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I think we have answered Kern's original question very well.

"Some Protestants make a big deal about the supposed "Mary worship" in the Catholic church and such.

I haven't been to many masses since I started going to church again, but I don't recall any mention of Mary except for the line in the Nicene Creed about the virgin birth. Is this standard, or are there some churches that emphasize it more?"

I think this thread gives a good summary now about the Catholic Church's position on Mary. To summarize some of the thoughts;

"..it is possible for those who have died, such as Mary and the Saints, to intercede on our behalf and pray with us to God."

"As far as "feelings about Mary," it is the teaching of the Church...Mary is referred to as "the Mother of Mankind."

"The woman in Revelation in Heaven, with the crown of twelve stars, is also taught by the Church to be Mary."

"Mediatrix" is a term used to describe Mary's intercession for us in prayer."

"Yes, we can go to Mary with our requests for her intercession in prayer. And we can look to her for the comfort of a mother."

"Mary cooperated in the redemptive work in a way quite special way."

"Mary has a wonderful assortment of Titles. No other human being has ever played such a critical role for mankind. Mary is called "the New Eve." She's also called the "Ark of the New Covenant."

"She is the Mother of God."

I have done an exhaustive search in my bible over the years to support any of these thoughts and I can't find anything even closely resembling these positions. I find instead that Jesus only rebukes a woman who tried to overly exalt Mary in a similar manner in His day. A good warning to us all today I think.

LUK 11:27 While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, "Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed."

LUK 11:28 But He said, "On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it."

If the thoughts expressed in this thread were truely reflective of how Jesus felt about Mary, this was an absolutely excellent time for Him to agree with the woman and even expand on her praise of Mary with the same thoughts expressed in this thread. But instead He says, "On the contrary..."

The only other time I read of Jesus speaking to Mary is when He said, "..Woman, what have I to do with thee?..."

I was in another thread recently, and we were discussing how many times the Catholic church had to recant and revise it's official teaching because it ended up not being Scriptural. It was truely staggering! I wonder if this will be one of those times as well? :confused:
 
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kern

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For anyone who wonders why the One Bread, One Body forum is needed, this is the reason. I wanted to ask about Mary in the Catholic mass, without the Protestants turning it into yet another "Mary worship is not biblical" thread.

Evan, please read the rules of the board, especially the one for the One Bread, One Body forum. If you have issues with the catholic practices, take them up in Interfaith Forum, or better yet, agree to disagree.

-Chris
 
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VOW

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To Evan:

I have done an exhaustive search in my bible over the years to support any of these thoughts and I can't find anything even closely resembling these positions.

Well, Hon, better take another look at the Bible, because Mary's role IS shown in there. ALSO take a look beyond the Bible, into the Early Church Fathers. Just because you haven't seen the verification doesn't mean it's not there. In this forum alone, the Catholics have provided incredible amounts of Scriptural references and quotes from the Early Church Fathers. We simply cannot re-create every single thread that has defined the role of Mary. And there are no easy, one-stop Scriptural references either. As a matter of fact, MOST Catholic teachings cannot be defined with a single verse from the Bible. That masterpiece is probably the most complex bit of literature to ever grace the face of the earth. And the teachings of the Church derive from the Bible as a WHOLE.

Mary is only one single example of that fact.

You can take the time and make the effort to do an honest study, or you can sit back with arms crossed and say, "It's not there."


Peace be with you,
~VOW
 
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