Long known never interpreted archeological evidence...

Bevlina · Jun 13, 2005

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5724143/
This is an interesting link. The finding of this cave, whether it be John the Baptists cave not not throws more light on the New Testament. We have to agree it as an interesting find.

kofh2u · Jun 14, 2005

Bevlina said:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5724143/
This is an interesting link. The finding of this cave, whether it be John the Baptists cave not not throws more light on the New Testament. We have to agree it as an interesting find.

1) Yes, it was interesting, adding a tiny bit more info.

2) The hand on the wall is very prominent in some of these web photos.

I was surprised that none of the people who requested/received my evidence of that graphic of the hand have even acknowledged that I backed up my assertion.

It seems so Archeologically significant in support of what I said:
That Jesus resurrected the priesthood of the wilderness in the day of Moses, those Kohanim of the "Hand Blessing.".

These priests used their hands in some way, lost to the whole religious community, so far. Matthew 3:12 says Jesus used the "shin" shaped grasp seen in the hand of Doc Spock. It says he "baptized with fire" by such a method.

3) The cave raises the whole issue concerning baptism, in general. Apparently, the feet were/had suddenly become the focus of the "humble baptism" replacing the full body immersion by John.

Had John's demeanor and grasp but less than humble?

The jugs shards and the size 11 foot imprint on the "baptizmal rock" in the cave suggest this was a new way, don't they?

4) The point can not be side stepped.
Jesus must have reduced John's full body submergence to just washing the feet.
(This took place sometime after Jiohn was arrested.)
This is a plausible deduction because the cave had no water source, the jugs had held oil. And, the foot stool was the focus of the service if we use the cave as evidence.
So, the cave gives answers and raises question, as does any scientific approach to the Truth.

5) The figure carved on the cave wall, with the outstretched hand, seems to imply a fire baptism by utility of the "fanned" fingers of the hand, (Matt 3:12).

Was this the "laying on of hands?"

Did the apostles, and even those who long followed Jesus, use this "fan of the fingers of the hand" to continue the baptism of fire? (Luke 3:18).

6) The whole issue seems to require some honest, unbiased investigation into just what this "Hand Blessing" was, as performed by the Kohanim of the Jews in the days of Moses. You can see on the graphic I offer to all that henna was used to write God's name and to demonstrate how the order of the digits count out (7) seven lettered spaces:

Rev. 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars:

7) It is also interesting that the Jewish tradition held that the "one coming" would revive the days of Moses and the generation of the wilderness. These original levite priests served the tabernacle in that day. So, isn't this exactly the fulfillment the Jews look forward to in their tradition, as the apostles laid hands upon the people?

8) Hands of fire also were a messianic promise:

Toward evening Elijah called his disciple Elisha and made him pour water over his hands. Then a miracle took place: water commenced to flow from the fingers of Elijah as from a fountain, so that the ditch around the altar became full (Tanna debe Eliyahu R. xvii.)

The prophet prayed to God that He would send fire down upon the altar, and that the people might see the miracle in its proper light and not regard it as sorcery (Ber. 9b). In his prayer he spoke of his mission as the precursor of the Messiah, and petitioned God to grant his request that he might be believed in future (Midr. Shir ha-Shirim, ed. Grünhuth, 25a; Aggadat Bereshit, lxxvi.).

See how important this might be to Jewish conversion?

Radagast · Jun 14, 2005

kofh2u said:
...This is a plausible deduction because the cave had no water source, the jugs had held oil...

Of course, this could also mean it's not John the Baptist's cave at all.

-- Radagast

kofh2u · Jun 14, 2005

Oh yeah.
But, then, what bunch Jewish weirdos were doing this stuff?

Serapha · Jun 16, 2005

kofh2u said:
One is that Jesus used his hand exactly in this manner to baptize and execise the evil spirits dwelling in man. We verify this by reading Matthew 3:12.

HI there!

Actually, there is no "evidence" of you use of the Matthew passage to support your claim. Do you have any instances where the winnowing fans of ancient times match your defining hand formation?

~serapha~

Serapha · Jun 16, 2005

Bevlina said:
Use my msn address in my profile Kof. Actually, too much evidence points to the fact that it could be John the Baptist's cave Rad. For example, the footwashing indent.
There is nothing to disprove it that I have found out. Naturally, following the death of John, other Christian's would have entered this cave.
But,Archaeologists pulled about 250,000 pottery shards from the cave, the apparent remnants of small water jugs used in baptismal ritual.

HI there!

You might be interested in reading on the Wadi el-Kharrar in Jordon which is more likely to be the place where John baptized.

At the Wadi el-Kharrar, baptism has been found to be total immersion.

~serapha~

Radagast · Jun 16, 2005

Serapha said:
HI there!

You might be interested in reading on the Wadi el-Kharrar in Jordon which is more likely to be the place where John baptized.

At the Wadi el-Kharrar, baptism has been found to be total immersion.

Well, that certainly matches the Scripture passages much better.

-- Radagast

Serapha · Jun 16, 2005

kofh2u said:
Incredible as it sounds,... at first, ... this connection between the luke 3:18 comment of Jesus baptising with the "fan (Hebrew for winnowing fork, a two pronged farm tool)" is the key to a whole body of information not known to Christians today.

Hi there!

Would you mind providing a source for your information, such as the discription of the winnowing fork.

Rev. 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his
mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

I have the Hebrew graphic passed down and to be found in the Jewish Encyclopedia which explains this symbolism of seven "stars" and augments Matthew 3:12's subtle meaning.

I can not upload it because i am using a pocketPC device that won't do this. But, I can email directly in the text, without atachments necessary if I have an email address.

If you click on my moniker, it will take you to my profile which will provide you with email capabilities.

The reason that the congregation is NOT permitted to peek at the Cohans is that on the back of their hand are certain cues written in henna. This is shown in the graphic. It also becomes clear that Exekiel was writing about this priestly "manna" always hidden from the congregation, lost over tge ages, and replaced and usurped by the temple priest @ 900 BC.

Interestingly, I emailed this information to a friend who a a rabbi named "Cohen" (from a separate CF posting)

The Jewish cemetery contains engraved headstones showing a pair of
hands held out in a strange position. The fork shaped separation of
two paired sets of fingers on each hand make them look exactly like
those of Spock.

1) These hands are only on graves of dead men named "Cohan."

2) Men named Cohan
are active in the synagogues today, occassionally performing a ritual
they call the Hand Blessing. However, they are descendents directly
and genetically related to the very first priests, the sons of Aaron,
then called Kohanim. (Priest). Their role in the congregation has gone
from total and unique priestly authority to a very brief and
subservient role, one replaced by rabbi today. What was their full
relation to the Aaronic ministration? Were they, especially, commanded
to minister for the Jewish congregation then and now?

4) Luke 3:17 Whose fan is in his hand,....

And his reply was...

Hello back at you.

Yes, the information you have is correct.

but he gave no indication that this was a ritual which is hidden from the congregation.

Another thing about these kohanim is that genetic collateration proves they had an original and unique common ancestor @ 3200 years ago. This would complement the Exodus story of an Aaronic Priesthood serving the tabernacle under Moses' leadership. It supports argument of an actual exodus, wbich has been under crigicism by the secular community for some time, now.

How would this support the argument of an actual exodus? There are other evidences that "prove" an exodus of Israelites/Hebrews from Egypt that carry more weight than a "hand signal".

~serapha~

kofh2u · Jun 16, 2005

hi mr. seraphim,

Where are we so far?
You have enumerated a number of areas in what I have told you so far which you seem to doubt. Not that the immense importance of what I may come to tell isn't startling enough to make people back off. But, what I am asking here is, what shall we proceed with.

For instance, you "doubted" enough concerning the Cohans as to inquire of your rabbi. (I very much appreciate this kind of academic behavior, I might add).

My point is this.
You speak to me of proof. What kind of "proof," and just what do you mean by "proof?

Proof, a Hebrew word in the bible, bachan: to investigate, to examine.

What do you ask for? The rabbi seems to confirm, but he is hardly to superior to what I may investigate further with you, because these Jews have long lost the full function of the Cohanim in the practice of their form of Judaism. If it were not so, then Jesus would have been rather redundant in his own fanned hand bsptism, merely a lay minister usurping a well known priestly function. That the rabbi did not mention the use of the shawls thrown over the head of the congregants implies you didn't ask him about that. How and why then do you suggest this may be a flaw in my comments?
I am, are you suggesting that there is some "proof" implicit in your interogation of what I say that will "evidence" I am incorrect?

Is our approach to be onevthat ignores the oowerful, never noticed truth of Matthew 3:12, but focuses upon the gnats in what has been noticed adjunct to the larger body of information Imexamine WITH you, or is it against you?

This is a science archaeological thread. mSo far, my Hypothesis anput the possible meaming of this cave has wi]on me the accusation of blasphemer. Is it truth we seek here, in archeology, or must what I "prove" lie within the range of what you can and/or are willing to examine and demonstrate and show?

Greek:apodeiknumi: to show off, to demonstrate, to exhibit,

NOTE:

Leonard Nimoy: Biography and Much More From Answers.com

(He tells us that he peeke
against the rule of the synagogue during this service of the "Hand Blessing," and that was how he found out aboit the strange ritual.)

"Nimoy also devised the Vulcan Salute consisting of a raised hand, palm forward with the fingers parted between the middle and ring finger. It is said to be based on the traditional kohanic blessing, which is performed with both hands, thumb to thumb in this position; a position thought to represent the Hebrew letter shin ?. (This letter is often used as a symbol of God in Judaism, as it is an abbreviation for God's name Shaddai. This usage is seen, for example, on every mezuzah.) Nimoy may also have derived the accompanying spoken blessing, "Live long and prosper" from this source, as the last phrase of the blessing is "May the Lord be forbearing unto you and give you peace" (Numbers 6:24-26)."

Serapha · Jun 16, 2005

kofh2u said:
hi mr. seraphim,

Where are we so far?
You have enumerated a number of areas in what I have told you so far which you seem to doubt. Not that the immense importance of what I may come to tell isn't startling enough to make people back off. But, what I am asking here is, what shall we proceed with.

For instance, you "doubted" enough concerning the Cohans as to inquire of your rabbi. (I very much appreciate this kind of academic behavior, I might add).

My point is this.
You speak to me of proof. What kind of "proof," and just what do you mean by "proof?

Proof, a Hebrew word in the bible, bachan: to investigate, to examine.

What do you ask for? The rabbi seems to confirm, but he is hardly to superior to what I may investigate further with you, because these Jews have long lost the full function of the Cohanim in the practice of their form of Judaism. If it were not so, then Jesus would have been rather redundant in his own fanned hand bsptism, merely a lay minister usurping a well known priestly function. That the rabbi did not mention the use of the shawls thrown over the head of the congregants implies you didn't ask him about that. How and why then do you suggest this may be a flaw in my comments?
I am, are you suggesting that there is some "proof" implicit in your interogation of what I say that will "evidence" I am incorrect?

Is our approach to be onevthat ignores the oowerful, never noticed truth of Matthew 3:12, but focuses upon the gnats in what has been noticed adjunct to the larger body of information Imexamine WITH you, or is it against you?

This is a science archaeological thread. mSo far, my Hypothesis anput the possible meaming of this cave has wi]on me the accusation of blasphemer. Is it truth we seek here, in archeology, or must what I "prove" lie within the range of what you can and/or are willing to examine and demonstrate and show?

Greek:apodeiknumi: to show off, to demonstrate, to exhibit,

NOTE:

Leonard Nimoy: Biography and Much More From Answers.com

(He tells us that he peeke
against the rule of the synagogue during this service of the "Hand Blessing," and that was how he found out aboit the strange ritual.)

"Nimoy also devised the Vulcan Salute consisting of a raised hand, palm forward with the fingers parted between the middle and ring finger. It is said to be based on the traditional kohanic blessing, which is performed with both hands, thumb to thumb in this position; a position thought to represent the Hebrew letter shin ?. (This letter is often used as a symbol of God in Judaism, as it is an abbreviation for God's name Shaddai. This usage is seen, for example, on every mezuzah.) Nimoy may also have derived the accompanying spoken blessing, "Live long and prosper" from this source, as the last phrase of the blessing is "May the Lord be forbearing unto you and give you peace" (Numbers 6:24-26)."

HI there!

My question was straightforward and to the point, and you have side-stepped the issue by throwing in "red herrrings".

I stated:

"Actually, there is no "evidence" of you use of the Matthew passage to support your claim. Do you have any instances where the winnowing fans of ancient times match your defining hand formation? "

I did search for the evidences of the winnowing fan, and I found no evidences of what you seem to indicate to be evident concerning the relationship to the hand. In fact, in ancient time, many times, winnowing baskets were used to clear the chaff from the wheat. How would winnowing baskets relate to a hand signal?

The fact remains, it is your theory, and not biblical fact as you indicated.

~serapha~

Radagast · Jun 17, 2005

kofh2u said:
...what do you mean by "proof?

Proof, a Hebrew word in the bible, bachan: to investigate, to examine.

From dictionary.com -- Proof: The evidence or argument that compels the mind to accept an assertion as true.

-- Radagast

kofh2u · Jun 17, 2005

hi rady,

I laugh every time I read that Humanity Professor who dreamt up such a definition.

As only mathematicians and scientists might understand, everything is founded upon Axioms or as in math, Field Postulates, which must first be agreed to before the process of convincing by "proof" of the logicor evidence may bear out.
And, as you know so well, those axioms themselves are unproven and unprovable.

So, then, I offer no "proof" but merely bring to your attention certain pieces of information.

The process of science, however, is our most recent paradigm, one by which we tend to agree that something, or some original idea, an Hypothesis, may make more sense than any other concept yet on the table. Of course, that would infer that it makes sense to mathematical/logical thinking people, about one seventh of the population.

Hence, my points are not offered to prove what I have linked together must be believed. Nor does what I say deny the validity of "proofs" quite acceptable to the people who lived with such predispositions. In the context of their paradigm they can dispute me. The idea that existed then, or continues even today, the thinking from that "box" or perspective, it remains true, even parallel to those which follow. There is neither hope nor profit in "proving" anything to minds already made up. Agreed?

Matt. 12:20 A bruised reed (of scriptural interpretion) shall he not
break, and smoking flax (of misguided dogma) shall he not quench, till (after) he send forth (good) judgment unto victory (in ecumenical amalgamation).

What do you make of the fact that the rabbi made no comment, while I tell you the shawls must hide the eyes of the Jews in the synagogue from looking at these mysterious hands of the Cohans?

And, in regard to the usefulness in confirming that the book of Exodus refers to events @ 1200-1300 BC, it seems a logical conclusion to a recent genetic study of the Kohanim.

Radagast · Jun 17, 2005

Well, since you ask, your posts to date do not "compel my mind" to accept them.

kofh2u said:
Matthew 3:12 says Jesus used the "shin" shaped grasp seen in the hand of Doc Spock. It says he "baptized with fire" by such a method.

Well, in my Bible it doesn't say that at all.

kofh2u said:
The cave raises the whole issue concerning baptism, in general. Apparently, the feet were/had suddenly become the focus of the "humble baptism" replacing the full body immersion by John.

Not really, it simply undermines the suggestion that the cave is associated with John (especially since there is a much more likely candidate for the place where John baptised).

kofh2u said:
And, the foot stool was the focus of the service if we use the cave as evidence.

Only if you first prove the association between John and the cave.

kofh2u said:
The figure carved on the cave wall, with the outstretched hand, seems to imply a fire baptism by utility of the "fanned" fingers of the hand, (Matt 3:12).

Only if we accept the 6 or so assertions you've already made.

kofh2u said:
The whole issue seems to require some honest, unbiased investigation into just what this "Hand Blessing" was, as performed by the Kohanim of the Jews in the days of Moses.

You haven't proved that this "Hand Blessing" existed.

kofh2u said:
As only mathematicians and scientists might understand, everything is founded upon Axioms or as in math, Field Postulates, which must first be agreed to before the process of convincing by "proof" of the logicor evidence may bear out.

As it happens, I am a mathematician and scientist.

kofh2u said:
And, as you know so well, those axioms themselves are unproven and unprovable.

True, but on "Biblical Archaeology" we can accept the laws of physics as axioms (for dating, etc.). We could discuss further axioms elsewhere, if you like. But my argument hasn't been with your axioms, but with your deductive reasoning.

kofh2u said:
The idea that existed then, or continues even today, the thinking from that "box" or perspective, it remains true, even parallel to those which follow.

Well, we're living in a "Biblical Archaeology" box here.

kofh2u said:
Matt. 12:20 A bruised reed (of scriptural interpretion) shall he not break, and smoking flax (of misguided dogma) shall he not quench, till (after) he send forth (good) judgment unto victory (in ecumenical amalgamation).

Please quote Scripture without these parentheses of yours.

kofh2u said:
What do you make of the fact that the rabbi made no comment, while I tell you the shawls must hide the eyes of the Jews in the synagogue from looking at these mysterious hands of the Cohans?

I don't see it as relevant, unless you prove your preliminary assertions.

kofh2u said:
And, in regard to the usefulness in confirming that the book of Exodus ...

There is a difference netween "it would be nice if it was true" and "it is true."

If you would care to back up your many assertions with proof, we'd be happy to look at it.

-- Radagast

kofh2u · Jun 17, 2005

Hmmm.."If you would care to back up your many assertions with proof, we'd be happy to look at it."

"We?"

What's in it for me?

W

Serapha · Jun 18, 2005

kofh2u said:
Hmmm.."If you would care to back up your many assertions with proof, we'd be happy to look at it."

"We?"

What's in it for me?

W

"credibility"

~serapha~

Serapha · Jun 18, 2005

Hi there!

I would like to quote a couple of statements from BAR, Nov/Dec 2004, page 18 concerning the "cave" of John the Baptist...

"In fact, few, if any, scholars in Israel think this cave has anything to do with John the Baptist"

"The discovery is nevertheless extremely important--not because of what it says about John the Baptist, but what it says about life in Israel in the sixth century B.C. For that is when this enormous space was dung out of the rock."

"There is a saying among archaeologists that when something cannot be explained, interpret it as "cultic." And that is what Gibson does...."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

BTW... we found several "cultic" pieces last week digging in Israel, and they were identified and labeled as "cultic" as they did not qualify under any known use.

~serapha~

Radagast · Jun 19, 2005

For staff review

Bevlina · Jun 21, 2005

Thread reopened.

Radagast · Jun 21, 2005

Serapha said:
You might be interested in reading on the Wadi el-Kharrar in Jordan which is more likely to be the place where John baptized.

References are here: http://www.baptiststandard.com/2000/3_8/pages/site.html , http://www.elmaghtas.com/bethany2/bethany2.html and http://www.jordanbeauty.com/BaptismSite.html

There are signs of churches built to commemorate the site, but apparently it fell into disuse, perhaps because it's on the east bank of the River Jordan, and perhaps because a flood washed the main church away.

The site also seems to fit with records of Christian pilgrims of the 4th century and later (after all, it would have been one of the "must-see" spots!).

-- Radagast

kofh2u · Jun 21, 2005

Thank you, fellows for the excellent resourse!
Re:
"You might be interested in reading on the Wadi el-Kharrar in Jordan which is more likely to be the place where John baptized."

This alternative site to the recent excavation makes the new Cave of JTB even more interesting.
The jug shars, the broken pottery, has probably been carbon dated by now. These ceramics are the best "clocks" we have. I have no idea how to research if they know just when this cave foot baptism was going on.
If prior to our Lord's time, perhaps @690 BC, then His own unexamined insistence on this ritual of membership into the fold of discipleship is connected. And, so would be his connection with a little known "cult" of Judaism.
Their was always a group of bearded men who were under some vow or another and who lived as hermits. Only when their oath had been fulfilled would they cut their hair and beard.

That Jesus was unrecognized after his resurrection supports this hypothesis that, indeed, Jesus was practicing this ritual.

If the shards time-out just after the crucifixion, it implies the Jewish authorities forced the Foot Baptism underground.

If the "clock" reads long after Christ, then this was a secret "church" in muslim held Holy Lands.

Nevertheless, the more we think about the carving, the hermit-like clothing, an the outstretched arm, hand held palm out, the more this extremely "odd" posture suggests a importance missed or unnoticed in Luke 3:18-9.

And... in this, we have a clue in regard to the Second Coming:

Rev. 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his
mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

Do we not?

Long known never interpreted archeological evidence...

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