Jesus will return in chariots??? HAY???

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Well, Bulwark, what can I say. I'll be happy to play you in a game online (although our theologies won't be on the line).

what, ya don`t want to fight for the right to have the right theology :D why not ;) :p J/K

on a searious note though acts, the challenges are similar , and I would enjoy a good AOE battle with you and a battle over the truth. so , when ya got the time , lets address this post because I am interested to see these biblical symbols for the things I talked about.

I am waiting ,patiently but curiously to. I have been wondering about some of the things you said and I would love to know more of your opinion and your theology.

so , when ya got the time acts.
 
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Sayci

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I believe that yes, the army will strike down many women and children, but, they did not accept the Lord in fact they insulted him and took the most holy being in everything's name in vain. Personally, when we are taken to Heaven, we will wish for revenge against those people.

You also said that are we supposed to just sit back and watch the slaughter of humanity or fight for salvation of the earth. I believe that we are not supposed to sit back we are supposed to follow the Lord's commands. If his command is to grow up with him and then become a banker have three kids live a normal life and then die of old age then that is what we should do. But, personally I think that is not what he has planned for you or for me. we are supposed to be ready in the spirit, and to be led wherever God wishes for us to go. From what information I have, it sounds like Satan is trying to confuse you, by making the Bible sound like it will destroy things you care about. I believe that the Bible is true, and it really is the only guideline I have. If you truly cannot read the Bible as it is supposed to be read. Next time just pray about it. Don't think,listen. Another thing when these thoughts come into your mind test them as Paul said to, Around James three, I think. No promotion of e-mail ads thank you
 
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NumberOneSon

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Hey Bulwark - I didn't forget about answering your post, my friend! (just in case you were wondering :) )

I've been on jury duty for the past couple days, but it ends on Friday so I'll have time this weekend to respond to the scriptures you presented. Until then.

In Christ,

Acts6:5
 
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NumberOneSon

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Hey Bulwark, glad I could get back to you!

I had considered that possibility as well but I just couldn’t make it fit history in Babylon’s fall.

The reasons that I don’t believed that it wasn’t Nebuchadnezzar was because of scriptures that don’t hold normal apocalyptic symbolic methods like whole earth and inhabitancy of the earth and kings and hosts of the earth and isles of the sea, for it to be relevant to Babylon.

I don’t think I said “Babylon’s fall”, but I did say the destruction of Israel by Nebuchadnezzar (Babylon). But either way, you would probably still have the same questions about my interpretation regardless of which nation is being spoken of in Isaiah 24, so I‘ll still show you where I‘m coming from.

I do have a good understanding of the apocalyptic side of Judaism in the last 400 yrs before Christ so I am with you on allot of what you say Acts (even if I don’t believe Jesus has returned).

Good! I’m glad you are familiar with apocalyptic language in Judaism, so at least you won’t think I’m nuts when I interpret certain scriptures from that perspective. Alright, let’s look at Isaiah 24

Isaiah 24
1 Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattered abroad the inhabitants thereof.
In prophetic or apocalyptic language, there would have been a symbolic sign for which nation or people it referred to, but seems to suggest , it is the whole world.

Yes, it may seem to suggest that. I have no problem being wrong if indeed I am. Isaiah 24 is in the midst of numerous “judgment” prophecies concerning Israel and other contemporary O.T. nations (Isaiah 14-34). I find it difficult to see why a prophecy dealing solely with the end of human history would be placed smack dab in the middle of localized judgments that took place thousands of years ago. Isaiah could be discussing God’s judgment against the O.T. nations of the earth (see Isaiah 34), but that doesn’t sit too well with me since the people of the “earth” in chapter 24 have “transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant”. But Isaiah 34 is an example of a prophecy against all the great nations of the ancient world, so I could interpret chapter 24 from both angles.

15 Wherefore glorify ye the LORD in the fires, even the name of the LORD God of Israel in the “isles of the sea”.(symbolic for whole world)

I don’t quite think that is the case. Cross reference Isaiah 11:11, where the isles of the sea mean nothing more than the coastlands and islands around the Mediterranean. I can’t recall any place in the scriptures that equates “isles” with continents.

16 From the uttermost part of the earth have we heard songs, even glory to the righteous. But I said, My leanness, my leanness, woe unto me! the treacherous dealers have dealt treacherously; yea, the treacherous dealers have dealt very treacherously.
17 Fear, and the pit, and the snare, are upon thee, O inhabitant of the earth.

Again, the words "uttermost part of the earth" and "inhabitant of the earth" and “isles of the sea” are not referring to a nation.

The words “world” and “earth” CAN refer to a single nation in apocalyptic literature. The same type of language can be found in Isaiah 13 concerning the fall of Babylon (and there is no question that the nation of Babylon is the focus of the prophecy). People gathering from the “end of heaven”(v.5), and the punishment of the Babylonian “world”(v.11) are just a few examples. Also, the terrible language of stars falling, darkening suns, shaken heavens, and a shifting earth describes the devastation God caused by using the Median armies as His instruments(v.17). Now, ideas of “future fulfillments” cannot negate the original fulfillment of the destruction of O.T. Babylon by the O.T. Medes. Even though Isaiah mentions the “world” in verse 11, it is the Babylonian world that he is referring too, not the entire planet.


18 And it shall come to pass, that he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake.
19 The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.
20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.
21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.

Again, look at Isaiah 13. The world, stars, sun, and moon are all said to be doing back-flips and summersaults, and yet this prophecy was against ancient Babylon, first and foremost. The language is apocalyptic in nature, and is not meant to depict literal events, but a literal judgment. Did the physical earth “remove out of her place” when God used the Medes to destroy Babylon?

Read that carefully because I am all form historically fulfilled prophecies but if you think all of it has past, then I have to disagree. This says clearly that it is a global advent to me.

If the judgment was global (from a O.T. perspective), then I don’t see much of a problem in viewing the prophecy as dealing with numerous nations (like chapter 34), although verse 5 still leads me to believe Israel may be the group in question. But I’m not adamant on that. I see no place in chapter 24 that speaks of an “advent” of Christ, only a “judgment”. Where do you see the advent spoken of in the chapter?


I have considered the fall of Babylon and the fact that she never rose again but this is not referring to Babylon as the earth;
1. Because Babylon did not fall in this manner at all.
2. Apocalyptic writing doesn’t use the word "EARTH" to describe a nation or an empire anywhere that I can remember.
3. It does say who it will affect, "v21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth."This affected even the fallen angels and all there kings of the earth.
That was not the case in 537 BC when Cyrus defeated Babylon either.

Well, like I stated earlier, I don’t think I ever had the fall of Babylon in view here. Israel was my pick if a single nation was being spoken of, but I’m willing to see a whole host of nations in Isaiah 24, albeit O.T. nations. On a side note, Babylon certainly did fall in such a manner (Isaiah 13:4,5,8,9-11,13), and this was accomplished by God through the Median armies (v.17). Apocalyptic writings can and do use the word “earth” and “world” to describe a nation or empire (see Isaiah 13:11,13).

So I gutta conclude that this is a future advent on a global scale, as mentioned in other places in the bible and apocryphal writings.

I think it was certainly a future event in Isaiah’s day, but not for us today. If I’m wrong that’s fine, but my main point in posting to you earlier was to help you understand apocalyptic language - although, you already seem to have some background in it already.

I hope this answered your questions. If you want me to clarify something I said then let me know.

In Christ,

Acts6:5
 
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Hi Acts,
Thanks for your reply. I am a bit busy at the moment and want to go through this properly before I answer you because I can see some of what your saying and I want to check it out properly.

I still havn`t got my AOE game back so that game is on hold for a while but I havn`t forgoten about it.

peace

BULWARK
 
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Hi Acts,
just a short post to let you know that I havn`t forgotten to answer your questions. I need to do a few hours study on these thing you have pointed out and also preterisim as I want to understand this historical concept , because , between me and you , shshshshsh :D it has crossed my mind a couple of times over the last 12 yrs that matt 24 could have been already fullfilled , including Jesus return , but I have many things that always contradicted that equasion.

so , let me study it for a while and I will be back.

thanks mate

BULWARK
 
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Heya Acts,
I made a vital mistake in our discussion. I thought you meant the fall of Babylon and misunderstood the whole concept and context of a lot of possibilities.

WOW! blow me down and call me stupid , :D I see what your saying. This “was” nebacadnezar-defeating Israel as you have said.

I have been doing a lot of study lately with a friend and I have been checking out a lot of things. I got to tell you, my position on so many things is changing and I need to do hours of study to get a good grip on all the things that make me curious.
The stuff we have started to discuss has blown me away!!!

I first picked up that you meant Israelis destruction by nebacadnesar and not Babylon’s fall, sorry about that, it was a vital mistake to being able to stay on the same wavelength.

So I went and read Isaiah ch 13 were I thought once before that it sounded exactly like Babylon’s fall and so when rereading that I saw that there were symbols like the sun and the moon doing back flips, :D, there was also references to the lord coming in the clouds and I started to see the whole picture. The lord coming in clouds or chariots seems to defiantly mean that he is coming in the cloud of an army going into battle.

What makes it interesting is that it uses these end time events hear as well as other places that have all happened. I wonder if this is symbolic of warfare and the powers that are in battle???

The thing is that this is defiantly when Babylon fell to Cyrus and his persian army.
the reason isiah says median army was because cyrus had defeated them and then used the median army in his persian empire making it the median-persian empire. at the time Isiah wrote this prophesy the persians and medians were still seperated.

This is were it seems to be convincing me that the vocabulary of using these words like great day of the lord and the sun and moon and all the rest of the over exaggerated stuff the prophets seem to go on about:D.

I have seen other destructive periods spoken of in the same symbolism as this.

Verse 10 - 11
10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogance of the proud to cease, and will lay
low the haughtiness of the terrible.

Punish the world would still be on a world scale as Babylon was the world ruler (of the known world) the world empire was over thrown.

Verse 13
13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her
place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce
anger.


“I had this vision and this is what I saw”;

WHEN YOU SEE THE ARMYS COMING WITH HUGE THUNDERING AND CLOUDS OF RED DUST THAT DARKEN THE SUN AND MOON AND SHAKE TERROBLY THE EARTH WHILE THEY FIGHT WITH FIRE BALLS BLAZING OUT OF THE SKY FROM ALL SIDES POUNDING THE EARTH AND QUAKING THE EARTH EXCEEDINGLY WITH EXPLOSIONS.

I SUPOSE IF YOU CAN PUT YOURSELF IN AN ANCIENT BATTLEFIELD WITH HUGE ARMYS BUILT FROM WORLD RULING NATIONS, THE SHAKING EARTH AND CLOUDS OF DUST AND NOISE OF THUNDERING CHARIOTS AND HORSES AND THE BLOOD ,SMOKE AND FIRE FALLING FROM THE SKY AND THEN CLASH

CAN YOU SEE HOW THAT IS ALMOST A LITRAL OCCURANCE AS A HUGE ARMY ATTACKS A CITY OR ARMY ON THE FIELD.


Some say that Babylon will raise back up for this to happen more literally in the end of the world but this prophesy says that Babylon will be like Sodom and Gomorra and it pretty much is to this day and so if someone were to build there a city again it would be braking gods decree.

So, after reading chapter 13 and seeing all of this concerning Babylon’s fall, it got me thinking about chapter 24 more deeply.

YES, I defiantly see this as nebacadnesar coming and destroying Israel and taking Judah into captivity.

I am defiantly seeing what you were saying about how the bible says things like, utterly emptied when there was a remnant there still or for ever and ever which never meant for that long at all.

This is what I saw, my eyes have been opened!!!

See, if I had of realized that you were talking about Israel then I think I would have cottoned on.

The first 5 verses of ch 24 are talking about making the land of Israel empty and scattering the inhabitance abroad.

Verse six is the result of nebbacadnesars army burning and pillaging the land of Israel until there was only a remnant left.

It goes on through to verse 15.

I’m not to shore about these scriptures that follow on though.

From verse 16 - 23.

I see that Israel never rose again although Judah did but when it says, “oh inhabitance of the earth!!” I would have expected ,”oh inhabitance of the land or of Israel but the whole earth???

What do you make of these verses in context with the whole chapter because I am getting the impression that it is talking about the judgment on the kings and the fallen angels spoken of in Jude and peter and revelations.

I then think that would put the whole chapter in a different light.

What do you make of these last verses Acts???

Sorry for taking so long to get back to you but I am in limbo on a lot of these things lately.

BULWARK.
 
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rollinTHUNDER

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Hello Bulwark,
For the answer to your question. The chariots are the clouds.

Psalm 104:3 - "and lays the beams of His upper chambers on their waters. He makes the clouds His chariot and rides on the wings of the wind."
 
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I totaly agree with you THUNDER.

This was something that I wrote in the last post to Acts. We have discussed some interesting chapters in Isiah and I would love to hear your opinion on theses things brother (espesialy the last part of my last post).

Verse 13

“I had this vision and this is what I saw”;

WHEN YOU SEE THE ARMYS COMING WITH HUGE THUNDERING AND CLOUDS OF RED DUST THAT DARKEN THE SUN AND MOON AND SHAKE TERROBLY THE EARTH WHILE THEY FIGHT WITH FIRE BALLS BLAZING OUT OF THE SKY FROM ALL SIDES POUNDING THE EARTH AND QUAKING THE EARTH EXCEEDINGLY WITH EXPLOSIONS.

I SUPOSE IF YOU CAN PUT YOURSELF IN AN ANCIENT BATTLEFIELD WITH HUGE ARMYS BUILT FROM WORLD RULING NATIONS, THE SHAKING EARTH AND CLOUDS OF DUST AND NOISE OF THUNDERING CHARIOTS AND HORSES AND THE BLOOD ,SMOKE AND FIRE FALLING FROM THE SKY AND THEN CLASH

CAN YOU SEE HOW THAT IS ALMOST A LITRAL OCCURANCE AS A HUGE ARMY ATTACKS A CITY OR ARMY ON THE FIELD.

hey thunder , what is your take on some of the things Acts and I have spoken off in the last few pages??
I would love to hear your opinion on the last few posts and the last comment made in my last post???

good to hear from you

BULWARK
 
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