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Hoonbaba

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Originally posted by ZooMom
That's right. :)

But I found this statement from a anti-Catholic protestant to be interesting:

"I look to Him, and Him alone, as the one who can save me “completely” since He ever lives to make intercession for me (Hebrews 7:24-25), not by being transubstantiated into wine and a wafer on an altar, but by the one offering of His perfect sacrifice on Calvary. Instead of appearing on Roman altars, my Lord Jesus is ever in the presence of the Father, interceding for me (Hebrews 9:12, 24). He is seated there, His work of sacrifice being accomplished (Hebrews 10:12), with the result that all those for whom He died are perfected by His work in their behalf (Hebrews 10:14). The Roman Mass is not a “re-presentation” of that one sacrifice, as you claim, for it does not result in the perfection of anyone. "

It's from this page:

http://aomin.org/MassCard.html

With that in mind, I'm curious to know: What's the point of representing Christ's sacrifice over and over?

-Jason
 
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ZooMom

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1 Corinthians 11:26
For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.


Catechism :1382. "The Mass is at the same time, and inseparably, the sacrificial memorial in which the Sacrifice of the cross is perpetuated and the sacred banquet of communion with the Lord's body and blood. But the celebration of the Eucharistic Sacrifice is wholly directed toward the intimate union of the faithful with Christ through communion. To receive communion is to receive Christ himself who has offered himself for us. "

That's the point. :)
 
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VOW

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To Jason:

If you listen to the words spoken by the priest at the Consecration, he quotes directly from THE LAST SUPPER. We aren't on Calvary, we are in the Upper Room, with the disciples, as Jesus takes the Wine and Bread and in His own Holy Hands, turns them into His Body and Blood.

Why do we do this? HE TOLD US TO.

We don't continually nail His Body to the Cross and watch it bleed into the cup, as the anti-Catholic propaganda would have you believe.

Jesus created this miracle at the Last Supper, at the Seder meal. Now remember, God told Moses and the other Israelites to re-enact their exodus from Egypt every year, to remember the wonderful MIRACLE of God when He brought His Children out of bondage.

Jesus DELIBERATELY created the miracle of the Mass at this commemorative meal, the Seder, because we JOIN in being the Chosen People of God by adoption through Jesus. WE are also, then, commanded to celebrate the Seder, and we do so, through the Mass.

The Jewish Seder features the roast lamb; Christians don't need it because we have the Lamb of God as the centerpiece of our meal.


Peace be with you,
~VOW
 
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Chili

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Originally posted by Hoonbaba


But I found this statement from a anti-Catholic protestant to be interesting:

"I look to Him, and Him alone, as the one who can save me “completely” since He ever lives to make intercession for me (Hebrews 7:24-25), not by being transubstantiated into wine and a wafer on an altar, but by the one offering of His perfect sacrifice on Calvary. Instead of appearing on Roman altars, my Lord Jesus is ever in the presence of the Father, interceding for me (Hebrews 9:12, 24). He is seated there, His work of sacrifice being accomplished (Hebrews 10:12), with the result that all those for whom He died are perfected by His work in their behalf (Hebrews 10:14). The Roman Mass is not a “re-presentation” of that one sacrifice, as you claim, for it does not result in the perfection of anyone. "

It's from this page:

http://aomin.org/MassCard.html

With that in mind, I'm curious to know: What's the point of representing Christ's sacrifice over and over?

-Jason

Ask your protestant friend how he plans to resolve the paradox "sinful yet saved" if he thinks that Jesus died for his sins--especially if Jesus must intercede for him until he dies.

May I direct you to Rev.14:12, "happy now are the dead who die in the Lord. Th espirit added: "Yes they shall find rest from their labors, for their good works accompany them." Jason, there are many places in the bible that suggest that we can and must die to our sins while in the presence of the Lord.

During the consecration of the bread and wine the transubstatiantion takes place which transforms the bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ. To this we say "Amen" while under the influence of dispensational grace because in reality we, as Catholics and sinners, are not worthy to receive. Hence our request "Lord I am not worthy to receive but only say the Word and I shall be healed" prior to our "Amen." The worthiness suggested here can be a reality for us before we physically die. Until then we do it by faith.
 
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Hoonbaba

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Ok...I have another question regarding the Lamb's Supper:

John 6:54 says, "Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life..."

Is that to say that if we DON'T partake in the communion, then we DON'T have eternal life?

I'm really curious about this :)

Also, John 6:56 says, "Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him"

Is that to say that we don't, then we don't remain in him? hehe :)

-Jason
 
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nyj

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Originally posted by Hoonbaba
John 6:54 says, "Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life..."

Is that to say that if we DON'T partake in the communion, then we DON'T have eternal life?

Serious business, isn't it? Either we are to believe that Jesus meant what He said, at all times, or that His message is optional and up to each persons discretion. Unfortunately, I have yet to find any Scripture which supports the second viewpoint.

Also, John 6:56 says, "Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him"

Is that to say that we don't, then we don't remain in him? hehe :)

[/B]

I would't laugh Jason. You've touched on a fundamental Truth of the Faith. If to be Christian means to believe what Jesus Christ said, and He said we must eat His Body and drink His Blood, and then we fail to do so...

... what do you think the consequences will be?

"But... what about all those who think that communion is symbolic... they'll be damned?"

My reply is: "Narrow is the gate..."

As for Mr. White's comments about the Eucharist... methinks he needs to brush up on the history and meaning of Passover.
 
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kern

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Originally posted by nyj


I would't laugh Jason. You've touched on a fundamental Truth of the Faith. If to be Christian means to believe what Jesus Christ said, and He said we must eat His Body and drink His Blood, and then we fail to do so...

... what do you think the consequences will be?

"But... what about all those who think that communion is symbolic... they'll be damned?"

My reply is: "Narrow is the gate..."

Is this the official Catholic teaching? That people not taking the Catholic eucharist are not saved? This was not my understanding from reading some of the other posts on this forum.

-Chris
 
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nyj

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Originally posted by kern


Is this the official Catholic teaching? That people not taking the Catholic eucharist are not saved? This was not my understanding from reading some of the other posts on this forum.


Those who, after recognizing the Truth, turn away from it, are damned (2 Peter 2:21).

On the otherhand... I suppose there is such a thing as "invincible ignorance".

HOWEVER... the Holy Eucharist is a source of sacramental grace. As those who seek to obtain heaven, grace is the most important element of that journey. Without it, we will not obtain salvation. Hence, if one denies themselves the grace that comes with the Eucharist, they are at a severe disadvantage.
 
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nyj

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Taken from "Unitatis Redintegratio", the Decree on Ecumenism.

Nevertheless, our separated brethren, whether considered as individuals or as Communities and Churches, are not blessed with that unity which Jesus Christ wished to bestow on all those who through Him were born again into one body, and with Him quickened to newness of life-that unity which the Holy Scriptures and the ancient Tradition of the Church proclaim. For it is only through Christ's Catholic Church, which is "the all-embracing means of salvation," that they can benefit fully from the means of salvation. We believe that Our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, in order to establish the one Body of Christ on earth to which all should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the people of God. This people of God, though still in its members liable to sin, is ever growing in Christ during its pilgrimage on earth, and is guided by God's gentle wisdom, according to His hidden designs, until it shall happily arrive at the fullness of eternal glory in the heavenly Jerusalem.
 
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Hoonbaba

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Originally posted by nyj
Nevertheless, our separated brethren, whether considered as individuals or as Communities and Churches, are not blessed with that unity which Jesus Christ wished to bestow on all those who through Him were born again into one body, and with Him quickened to newness of life-that unity which the Holy Scriptures and the ancient Tradition of the Church proclaim. For it is only through Christ's Catholic Church, which is "the all-embracing means of salvation," that they can benefit fully from the means of salvation. We believe that Our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, in order to establish the one Body of Christ on earth to which all should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the people of God. This people of God, though still in its members liable to sin, is ever growing in Christ during its pilgrimage on earth, and is guided by God's gentle wisdom, according to His hidden designs, until it shall happily arrive at the fullness of eternal glory in the heavenly Jerusalem

Uhm....I don't understand what all that means.. care to explain?

-Jason
 
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Hoonbaba

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Originally posted by nyj


Serious business, isn't it? Either we are to believe that Jesus meant what He said, at all times, or that His message is optional and up to each persons discretion. Unfortunately, I have yet to find any Scripture which supports the second viewpoint.



I would't laugh Jason. You've touched on a fundamental Truth of the Faith. If to be Christian means to believe what Jesus Christ said, and He said we must eat His Body and drink His Blood, and then we fail to do so...

... what do you think the consequences will be?

"But... what about all those who think that communion is symbolic... they'll be damned?"

My reply is: "Narrow is the gate..."

As for Mr. White's comments about the Eucharist... methinks he needs to brush up on the history and meaning of Passover.

But if you take that passage (i.e. John 6:54) literally then doesn't that contradict the 'baptism of desire'?

Because it sounds like you're saying that non-Catholics do not and cannot go to heaven unless they partake in the Eucharist.

I think I may've missed something important.

God bless!

-Jason
 
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