When are your sins forgiven?

I'm very sorry that I have not been very active on my thread here. I have got a lot going on this week. But I will take just a few min to make a quick few comments. First off I want to deal with ELDERMIKE and THEGREENEYELADY. I love and appreciate your comments on this thread but, you just mearly say things but do not back them up with scripture. For instance I could say to you that there are pink elephants that can fly in my backyard. This statement has just as much validity to it what you have been stating. Its very important to me that you notice that I have not just merly stated an opinion I backed it with book chapter and verse. I do not interpret the bible based on how it makes me feel or if I think something is right because I think in my own mind that it should be. I beleive in nothing more or less than what Gods word says. It is the only authority I go by.

I forget the name of the person that attempted to answer my challenge. I appluade you for at least trying to provide a verse to my challenge, however you have not met my challenge. I dont think you have taken the time to read this entire thread or else you wouldnt of used the the theif on the cross as an example. I will deal with post in more detail later when I get a chance.

Really quick on the subject of the OT and Jesus not destroying it. Your abosoutly right he didnt come to destroy it while he was on the earth he came to fullfill it and when he died on the cross the law was nailed to the cross. If you want to have the opinion that you dont have to be baptised because the people under the old convenant didnt have to be then you need to bring EVERYTHING from the old convenat in your lifes today. You need to keep the sabath which would include not picking up sticks or any kind of work for that would be grounds for you death. If you want to justify something from the OT you better be ready to bring it all over. You cant just pick and choose what you want to bring over. Again I will comment on this more latter.

Finally Mr LBooth I will provide you another scripture that you missed beyond ACT 2:38. Act 22:16. Ask you self the question how were Pauls sins washed away. Perhaps Mr Lbooth you overlooked this one.

I promise I will get back on track latter and back up what I have stated in this post with Gods word. This is just a fore taste. I recommend everyone that is reading these post on this topic to go back and read the post I have done and look up in the bible what I have presented so far. If you do this I feel confident that you will see how clear the salvation plan is.

Thanks

When Jesus met the “woman at the well” he told her:

Joh 4:13 Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the
water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting
life.

I think it’s quite obvious in the text, the “WATER” to which he referred wasn’t the
“natural water” found in the well.

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I would agree with that.

Jesus told Nicodemus:
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and
of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Here again we find “water” mentioned, but again, it’s not “natural water”, but the “same
water” Jesus gave the “woman at the well”.

What is this “water”??? it’s “DOCTRINE”, the “WORDS OF GOD”.

We must be “born again” by the “WORDS OF GOD” and the “SPIRIT”.

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Nicodemas, a Pharisaical leader of the Hebrew people, once sought a night-time interview with Jesus. He had been impressed with the Lord, hence declared: “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that you do, except God be with him.”

Christ never acknowledged the compliment; rather, he went right to the heart of the matter and admonished the Jewish dignitary: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except one be born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God” (Jn. 3:3). Nicodemas did not understand the nature of the Lord’s symbolic language, and so inquired: “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?” Jesus pointed out that the birth of which he spoke was of a spiritual nature. He announced: “Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God” (3:5).

Within the world of “Christendom” it is generally conceded that one must experience the new birth if he is to be saved. Our Lord certainly left no doubt about it when he emphasized: “You [plural] must be born anew” (3:7).

The matter of controversy is focused upon what constitutes the new birth. This point will be considered in this article.

There are three important phases connected with a birth experienceó a begetting, a bringing forth, and the state into which one enters as a result of that process. In the human arrangement, for example, there is the implantation of seed by the father, a bringing forth (delivery) from the mother, and a family relationship subsequently enjoyed (with inheritance privileges).

Within this context Christ suggests each of these components. There is mention of:


The Spirit; water;and,the kingdom.
We confidently argue that the Lord here affirms that one:

Must be begotten by the Spirit, and that such is effected by the Word of God as the sacred message produces belief in a sincere heart.

That penitent faith, generated by the gospel, will lead one to obey the New Testament command to be immersed in water, thus identifying with Jesus in his “birth” from the dead (Col. 1:18; Rev. 1:5).

All who yield to this divine plan become citizens of the kingdom of Christ (Col. 1:13), or members of his church (Mt. 16:18-19).
Let’s address each of these matters.


The role of the Holy Spirit
The New Testament makes it clear that the Holy Spirit, operating through the medium of the Word of God, “begets” (in a manner of speaking) the individual who gladly receives that truth. For example, James declares: “Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of first-fruits of his creatures” (1:18). Further, note Peter’s comment: “...[H]aving been begotten again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, through the word of God, which lives and abides” (1 Pet. 1:23). In one of his epistles to Corinth, Paul observes: “For though you have ten thousand tutors in Christ, yet have you not many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I begat you through the gospel” (1Cor. 4:15).

To these plain passages add this fact: The Scriptures clearly affirm that the Holy Spirit uses the Word of truth as his instrument of operation upon the human heart (cf. Eph. 6:17). It thus becomes apparent that the term “Spirit” in John 3:5 is an allusion to the source of the spiritual seed that impacts the human heart by means of the gospel. This represents the initial phase of the conversion process.

[Note: An accurate analysis of John 3:3ff will not allow the view, becoming increasing popular with some, that “Spirit” in John 3:5 refers to a kind of “baptism in the Holy Spirit” (cf. Robert Leon Gibson, Christian, You Were Baptized in Water and Spirit, Fort Worth: Star Publications, 1988). The birth from the water is distinct from the implantation of the seed.]


The water of the new birth
To what does the word “water” refer in John 3:5? For many centuries following the apostolic age, there was no controversy concerning the significance of “water” in this passage. The “church fathers” clearly understood it to denote baptism. The testimony of Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Cyprian, etc., could be cited to establish this point.

In his monumental work, History of Infant Baptism, William Wall, a leading scholar in the Church of England, asserted that not a single writer of antiquity denied the identification of the “water” of John 3:5 with baptism. He suggested that John Calvin was the first to disassociate the two items, and that Calvin even conceded that his interpretation was “new” (Oxford, 1862, Vol. I, p. 443).

Of course, subsequent to Calvin, numerous denominational clergymen have denied that baptism is an element of the new birthó and this due, of course, to their doctrinal bias against the necessity of immersion for the remission of sins. On the other hand, many scholars concede that the “water” of this passage is an allusion to baptismó though they would deny the essentiality of the rite as a condition for salvation. Under the term hudor (water), William Arndt & F.W. Gingrich note: “Of Christian baptism, the new birth...Jn. 3:5” (Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, Chicago: University of Chicago, 1967, p. 840).

It is interesting to reflect upon some of the bizarre speculations that have been offered in order to eliminate water baptism from this context. A few of the novel ideas which attempt to identify the “water” as something other than baptism are as follows.


Some have suggested that “water” is but a symbol for the Spirit himself (cf. Ben Bogard, Hardeman-Bogard Debate Nashville: Gospel Advocate, 1938, p. 138). That would hardly be the case, since the Spirit is already mentioned in the passage. The Lord was not arguing that unless one “be born of Spirit and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”

Others have contended that “water” is a figure for the blood of Christ (cf. B.H. Carroll, An Interpretation of the English Bible, Grand Rapids: Baker, 1978, Vol. 4, p. 292). There is no basis for such a theory. The apostle John, in one of his later writings, clearly distinguishes between water and blood (cf. 1 Jn. 5:8).

Occasionally, it is asserted that the “water” of John 3:5 is a reference to the amniotic fluid that flows from the mother’s body prior to birth. Such a wild view is easily refuted by the fact that whatever the new birth process was, the Jewish ruler had not yet experienced it; obviously, however, he had been born of his mother already! Moreover, such a theory would suggest that anyone delivered by Caesarean section (no water in that procedure) would be ineligible to enter the kingdom of God!

Equally absurd is the recent view advocated by D.A. Carson, which theorizes that the “water” of this passage is a reference to “male sperm” (Exegetical Fallacies, Grand Rapids: Baker, l984, pp. 41-42). This would have the Lord suggesting that unless one is conceived he cannot enter the kingdom. Is there any un-conceived person on earth? It scarcely needs to be pointed out that such a ridiculous statement would be unworthy of the Son of God.
The simple truth of the matter is thisó the “water” alluded to in this context is a reference to the water of baptism, which is a necessary act of obedience for those who aspire to enter into the kingdom of heaven. This fact is evidenced by the following considerations:


It is a recognized principle of biblical exegesis that words are to be viewed literally unless there are demands within the immediate or remote context which call for a figurative meaning. There is nothing here or elsewhere that would require a symbolic interpretation of “water” in this passage. Hence, there is no necessity to attach an unusual meaning to the term in John 3:5.

The expression “born of water” is certainly consistent with language employed of baptism in other portions of the New Testament. For example, just as Christ’s resurrection from the dead is declared to be a birth from death (cf. Col. 1:18; Rev. 1:5), even so, when one is born of water he is “raised” to walk in newness of life (cf. Rom. 6:4; Col. 2:12).

The kingdom – Christ’s body
According to the Lord's declaration in John 3, the goal of the new birth is entrance into the kingdom. That this relates to salvation is apparent from the following irresistable logic:


The new birth introduces one into the kingdom (Jn. 3:5).
But the kingdom is the church (Mt. 16:18-19).
Therefore, the new birth introduces one into the church.

The new birth introduces one into the church (conclusion above).
But the church is the body (Eph. 1:22-23; Col. 1:18, 24).
Thus, the new birth introduces one into the body.

The new birth introduces one into the body (above).
But the body is the saved (Eph. 5:23).
Therefore, the new birth introduces one into the realm of salvation.
Without the new birth, therefore, one cannot be in the kingdom, the church, the body, or the state of salvation.

Some Summary Considerations

Let’s now begin to tie our related passages together - with a return to a consideration of the “water” of John 3:5 as the equivalent of baptism.

A comparison of John 3:5 with a parallel passage, 1 Corinthians 12:13, makes it certain that the water of the former verse is equivalent to the “baptism” of the latter.


Jn. 3:5 I Cor. 12:13
...Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God! For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body...

First, note that both passages mention the role of the Holy Spirit in the conversion process. Second, observe that both verses state the same result that occurs with the completion of the new birth. John records that the goal is entrance into kingdom, while Paul affirms that the convert is introduced into the one body.

That the “kingdom” and the “body” refer to the same entity is demonstrated by the following logical argument:


The body of Christ is the church (Col.1:18, 24).
But, the church is the kingdom (Mt. 16:18-19).
Thus, the body of Christ is the kingdom.
In the remaining portion of the equation, we need only compare the word “water” in John 3:5, with Paul’s use of “baptism” in the Corinthian passage. Note, therefore, how the verses line up:


Jn. 3:5 Spirit water kingdom
I Cor. 12:13 Spirit baptism body

Plainly, “water,” in John 3:5, refers to baptism.

Moreover, a comparison of two other New Testament passages will reveal additional interesting similarities. In Ephesians 5:26 Paul writes:


“Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself up for it; that he might sanctify it, having cleansed it by the washing of water with the word.”
Note these three elements:

The Word;the washing of water; cleansed.
Observe how these correspond with the two verses just considered.


Jn. 3:5 Spirit water kingdom
I Cor. 12:13 Spirit baptism body
Eph. 5:26 Word water cleansed


In the first column, it is revealed how the Spirit operates in conversionó through the Word (cf. Eph. 6:17). In the second column, the water is identified as baptism. Then, in the third column, it is demonstrated that those cleansed by their obedience have entered into the body, the kingdom.

Finally, there is yet another passage which complements this study. In Titus 3:5, the apostle Paul declares:


“...according to his mercy he saved us, through the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Spirit.”
Again, there is mention of:


The Spirit;the washing of regeneration; and,
saved.
Observe now how the columns line up.


Jn. 3:5 Spirit water kingdom
I Cor. 12:13 Spirit baptism body
Eph. 5:26 Word water cleansed
Titus. 3:5 Holy Spirit washing saved


Clearly these various biblical passages wonderfully explain one another.

The sincere person, who believes the testimony of the Holy Spirit, as conveyed through the Word of God, will yield to the Lord’s command to be baptized for the forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:38; 22:16). He thus will be cleansed (or saved) from his past transgressions, and subsequently translated into the kingdom of Christ (Col. 1:13), which is the body, or the church (Col. 1:18, 24).

There is no difficulty in understanding the clear teaching of scripture when such is distanced from the biased speculations of men.

One must be born anew!

This was an article written by Wayne Jackson that I completely agree with and more than answer your arguement.

Umm...no where in Acts 22 does Paul say you MUST be baptised to be saved. Again if you look at the totallity of scripture you will see that baptism is a identification and initiation into the church mirroring the spiritual transformation that has happened when you accepted Christ (already happened).

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I just have 2 questions for you.

LouisBooth are saying that you can be saved without haveing your sins washed away? This is exactly what it sounds like you saying. By the way have you read 1Peter 3:21.

Lets say for a min that you are right about Act 2:38 being the only verse that associates forgiveness of sins with baptism (all though I highly disagree with this). How many times does Gods word have to command something before it is to be taken seriously?

What matters is that we are FORGIVEN.
I guesss I cannot understand why this topic has gone on for 5 pages.
I know I am forgiven...You know you are forgiven WERE ALL FORGIVEN!
Lets praise the Lord God for forgivess instead of haveing fruitless conversations on how or why or if or WHEN we are forgiven!!

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I'm sorry you feel like this is a fruitless conversastion. However, I find this to be a very important discussion especially when ones salvation is at stake. You have to understand that I beleive that Gods word teaches plainly that you must sumbit to the obidence of faith and be baptized into christ in order to have your sins removed and to become united with the Lord. You can bring up all the deathbed cases and person getting killed going across the street to be baptized. But the real questions boils down to this, What does that have to do with you? Are you on your death bed or are being killed as you walk across the street? I will be glad to give you my thoughts on these type of situations if you want but again what does that have to do with you? I have studied and studied this topic from top to bottom and no matter how hard you try you can not rule baptizm out as the way you enter into christ death. I'm not in here trying to start arguements I am in here to share Gods word so that every person that reads these post will at least be exposed to what the bible teaches about salvation. So please I beg you to read my prior post and open up your bible and study what I presented with an open mind. I cant remember if I posted my temp website that has a longer verson of the plan of salvation so here it is if you would like to read it also.
http://www.ardmoreweb.com/christ/

LouisBooth perhaps you would like to explain to us the context of ACT 2:38.

Acts 2:37  Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Its very obvious what the context is here. These people want to know what it is they need to do in order to be saved. See the next verse.
40  And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41  Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Go ahead LouisBooth explain away the obvious context of Acts 2:38. I wish it were as simple as you claim it to be that you just merely have to believe in order to be saved but even the devils beleive LB. James 2:19  Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20  But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Perhaps you would like to try and distort the meaning of the word for(eis in greek)and say that the verses says to repent and be baptized BECAUSE OF the remmisson of sins. Well I'm sorry this wont work either because this next verse uses the same word for in the same gramatical way and undeniable refutes this view unless you want to state the Jesus blood was shed because we already had remmisson of sin. Matthew 26:28  For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Now LB has stated the word of God only has to say something 1 time for it to be fact if it is within context. Well lets see If LB sticks to his word.

If someone has just skiped to the end of these post I want it to be very clear that I beleive the bible teaches that Grace,Faith,Repentence,Confession,and Baptism are all requried to become a child of god and have you sins remove. If you take just one of these out you are lost. This may sound harsh but Gods word plainly teaches this concecpt when you use the whole concil of God and not just part of it.

Please pay attention LB to the following verses. Colossians 2:11  In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12  Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13  ¶And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Do you see it LB is the light bulb comeing on? The water isnt magical its your faith working though obediece that you know that when you are buried with Christ in Baptism that when you are coming up out of that water your being raised a new creature being joined with Christ and haveing your sins forgiven by your faith in the operation of God. These verse explain 1Peter 3:21 why baptism is not the removal of dirt from the body. Baptism joins you with Christ thourgh your faith. You claim you have studied Rom 6 for a long time well look at how these verses tie right in with the above verses.

Romans 6:3  Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4  Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5  For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6  Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7  For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8  Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

You see how clear the scriptures are.

You also claim that that the bible doesnt say anywere that Paul was baptized. Perhaps LB you used white out in your bible or you completely missed the following verse. Acts 9:18  And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized. Now maybe you should revisit this passage once again.
Acts 22:16  And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

You see LB Pauls sins were not washed away until he was baptized. And yes this is in water. See Acts 8:36-39; Acts 10:47-48.

Heres another verse that shows faith and baptism working together.
Mark 16:16  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Notice the conditional statement belive AND baptized. Now before you try and twist this verse by saying the last part only says if you dont believe that you shall be damned there for baptism isnt necessary let me provide the following anology. If I tell you he that eats and digest will live; but he that doesnt eat will die. This is all that needs to be said because if you dont eat your not going to digest. In the same manner if you dont beleive your sure not going to be baptized.

I dont mean to repeat myself but here goes anyways. Now watch this. The church is Christ body Eph 1:22-23 and baptism put you into the body 1Cort 12:13 and Jesus is the saviour of the body Eph 5:23. So would'nt it seem logical to you that you must be in the body of christ in order to be saved and the way you get into the body is through baptism? Again my challenge has not been meet. Show me just 1 verse that says that faith by itself puts you into christ body or his death. Baptism represent the death, burial and resurection of Jesus.

Well I look forward to your response Louisbooth as soon as you finish wipeing the egg off your face.