More Testimonies: Why I Left Islam

SKY80 · May 10, 2005

Date: 25 Feb 2001 Time: 12:34:44 Comments

While I was a Western "revert," I was never actually a Sunni Muslim. Instead I opted for the life of a heterodox Bible-quoting, hadith-rejecting pseudo-submitter. Undoubtedly the Muslims will argue that I was never really a Muslim, therefore I am not really an apostate. I would respond that if we are indeed all born as servants of Allah, all non-Muslims are apostates, and should be killed as per the Shariah. The global ikhwaan al-Kaafireen has three days to revert, or feel the wrath of the global ummah. As for my story, I left Christianity and played the Muslim game for a while, but soon realized the subconscious fallacy I was committing. It is a fallacy committed by so many Christian converts to Islam. These are people who are already disillusioned with the Christian mythology, but still want to believe in Jesus. Thus along comes Islam, which seems to paint a more "logical" picture of Jesus than that which is found in Trinitarian Christianity. They watch a few Ahmed Deedat videos, accept the tribal mythology hook, line, and sinker, and are brought into the fold. These types will memorize a few contradictions in the Bible, and subconsciously assume that by invalidating the Bible, they simultaneously validate the Qur'an. The often-repeated "the Bible has changed but the Qur'an remains the same" polemic is an exhibition of this sort of idiocy. This is the mental state of almost all Christian converts to Islam. I finally realized that the Islamic mythology is no different from that of the Judeo-Christian model. While I finally stopped believing in stories about virgin births and men turning sticks into snakes, so many others still take this seriously. It is a state of mass hysteria. -Denis Giron

arunma · May 10, 2005

I can't tell if Mr. Giron is a Christian or not. The last sentence is a bit disturbing. He says, "I finally stopped believing in stories about virgin births and men turning sticks into snakes." Obviously, the virgin birth refers to the birth of the blessed Messiah Jesus. And the snake is probably a reference to the Aaron's staff, which Moses turned into a snake before the court of Pharaoh. Doesn't Mr. Giron believe in these things? If he doesn't, then I'm guessing he's not a Christian. And to be honest, I'll take a Muslim over a godless atheist any day.

But maybe I misunderstood his point, from what you've posted.

rahma · May 10, 2005

While I was a Western "revert," I was never actually a Sunni Muslim. Instead I opted for the life of a heterodox Bible-quoting, hadith-rejecting pseudo-submitter

He didn't leave Islam, he left the Rashid Khilafa pseudo islamic cult.

That being said, I could post thousands of stories of americans who converted and are quite happy with Islam. And I'm sure you could post quite a few stories of people who left Islam. People enter each respective faith and others leave it. Nothing new or exciting.

Ahmed Waheed · May 10, 2005

There is a simple reason behind those who leave Islam (become ghaafil; and go into kufr). The reason is that Allah guides whomsoever He wills and mis-guides whomsoever He wills (the ignorant people). Whoever Allah guides; none can mislead and whoever Allah mis-guides; none can guide.

May Allah protect the Muslim Ummah from Kufr . . . Ameen

mjmaj · May 16, 2005

I would respond to Denis Giron that his simulations look like those Jews who were at the beginning of Islam when they did all which means to deceive from one hand the followers Of Islam, and on the other hand those who were about embracing Islam That because the Jews and the Christian in that epoch were known among the Arabs as "the people of the heavenly scriptures" therefore they would be considered of their knowingness and their experience on the subject of religions-

But unfortunately as the Jewish's habits is to refuse all what's Arabic, they refused what they were waiting for and threatening the Arabs from

 The Prophet Muhammad just because He was an Arabic. The Quran says in this regard:

. 89) And when there came to them a Book from Allah verifying that which they have, and aforetime they used to pray for victory against those who disbelieve, but when there came to them (Prophet) that which they did not recognize, they disbelieved in him; so Allah's curse is on the unbelievers. 90) Evil is that for which they have sold their souls -- that they should deny what Allah has revealed, out of envy that Allah should send down of His grace on whomsoever of His servants He pleases; so they have made themselves deserving of wrath upon wrath, and there is a disgraceful punishment for the unbelievers. 91) And when it is said to them, Believe in what Allah has revealed, they say: We believe in that which was revealed to us; and they deny what is besides that, while it is the truth verifying that which they have. Say: Why then did you kill Allah's Prophets before if you were indeed believers?

So in order to confuse people and astray them away from the truth they made many schemes that to let some of them embracing Islam for a while and then refute it, as I said in order to confuse the others relying on their fame of heavenly knowledge, but Allah (SWT) disclose them in the Holy Quran by the following

Verses:

72) And a party of the followers of the Book say: Avow belief in that which has been revealed to those who believe, in the first part of the day, and disbelieve at the end of it, perhaps they go back on their religion. 73) And do not believe but in him who follows your religion. Say: Surely the (true) guidance is the guidance of Allah -- that one may be given (by Him) the like of what you were given; or they would contend with you by an argument before your Lord. Say: Surely grace is in the hand of Allah, He gives it to whom He pleases; and Allah is Ample-giving, Knowing. 74) He specially chooses for His mercy whom He pleases; and Allah is the Lord of mighty grace. 75)[Quran:The Family of Imran]

Also the following verses explain some of the Jewish's plots

. 51) Have you not seen those to whom a portion of the Book has been given? They believe in idols and false deities and say of those who disbelieve: These are better guided in the path than those who believe. 52) Those are they whom Allah has cursed, and whomever Allah curses you shall not find any helper for him. 53) Or have they a share in the kingdom? But then they would not give to people even the speck in the date stone. 54) Or do they envy the people for what Allah has given them of His grace? But indeed We have given to Ibrahim's children the Book and the wisdom, and We have given them a grand kingdom.

[The Women]

. 109) Many of the followers of the Book wish that they could turn you back into unbelievers after your faith, out of envy from themselves, (even) after the truth has become manifest to them; but pardon and forgive, so that Allah should bring about His command; surely Allah has power over all things.[The Cow]

Finally I say for those who become a Moslem and realize exactly what Islam is, and as long as they are interesting to follow the truth, they will never give the Islam up and take an other religion instead of it.

ServantofTheOne · May 16, 2005

"These types will memorize a few contradictions in the Bible, and subconsciously assume that by invalidating the Bible"

The Qur'an is not validated by the status of the Bible, The Qur'an stands on its own substance and merit. The Qur'an confirms that which was revealed throughout the history of man. The ultimate truth that we belong to the One Creator and to Him we will return.

The Creator gave an open challenge to all who deny the truthfulness of the Qur'an to create another like it.

prior to the revelation of the Qur'an there were 16 different and distinct literary styles in the arabic language. The Qur'an came and it was completely different from any style that they knew, and the arabs were well known for they literary expertise in language, poetry, etc. Their favorite past time was poetry. Allah challenged all these experts in the language to create any of their own work or chapters using this new Quranic style. NONE could. up until today, the challenge remains.

There is no other piece of literature that can make this claim.

The translation of the Qur'an is not the Qur'an, it is the translation of the meaning.. all of its literary beauty remains in the original arabic.

arunma · May 16, 2005

Wow Mjmaj, that sounded rather anti-semitic, don't you think?

morningstar2651 · May 17, 2005

arunma said:
I can't tell if Mr. Giron is a Christian or not. The last sentence is a bit disturbing. He says, "I finally stopped believing in stories about virgin births and men turning sticks into snakes." Obviously, the virgin birth refers to the birth of the blessed Messiah Jesus. And the snake is probably a reference to the Aaron's staff, which Moses turned into a snake before the court of Pharaoh. Doesn't Mr. Giron believe in these things? If he doesn't, then I'm guessing he's not a Christian. And to be honest, I'll take a Muslim over a godless atheist any day.

But maybe I misunderstood his point, from what you've posted.

1.) Belief in virgin birth and sticks that turn into snakes isn't a requirement to be a Christian the last I knew.
2.) Godless atheist - a bit redundant?

morningstar2651 · May 17, 2005

Little known fact, there are fewer contradicting verses in the Quran than there are in the Bible.

Not that it validates or invalidates either book...

cweb255 · May 17, 2005

Godless atheist? atheos atheos in Greek. God, I'm sure "love your neighbor as yourself" is a metaphor for hating atheists and liking only Christians, and maybe Jews and Muslims, no?

morningstar2651 · May 17, 2005

Heh, my "good" Christian neighbors give me dirty or threatening looks if I do lawn work on a Sunday. :doh:

ServantofTheOne · May 17, 2005

morningstar2651 said:
Little known fact, there are fewer contradicting verses in the Quran than there are in the Bible.

Not that it validates or invalidates either book...

The Qur'an claims to be the speech of the Creator. a message for all humanity directly from the Creator.

No other scripture can make this claim:

1. a completely new literary style that was unknown to the experts of literature of the time.

2. this style has not been imitated even though many have attempted.

The challenge remains for all who desire to undertake the task, produce a single chapter of literary work using the quranic style.

this challenge is not subjective, there are clear rules to the style of literature in the arabic languange and in the Qur'an.

for example a haiku is a Japanese lyric verse form having three unrhymed lines of five, seven, and five syllables, traditionally invoking an aspect of nature or the seasons. and any poem written in this form is called a haiku.

Say: "If the mankind and the jinns were together to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they helped one another." [Qur'an 17:88]

And if you (Arab pagans, Jews, and Christians) are in doubt concerning that which We have sent down (i.e. the Qur'an) to Our slave (Muhammad Peace be upon him ), then produce a surah (chapter) of the like thereof and call your witnesses (supporters and helpers) besides Allah, if you are truthful. [Qur'an 2:23]

And this Qur'an is not such as could ever be produced by other than Allah (Lord of the heavens and the earth), but it is a confirmation of (the revelation) which was before it [i.e. the Taurat (Torah), and the Injeel (Gospel), etc.], and a full explanation of the Book (i.e. laws and orders, etc, decreed for mankind) - wherein there is no doubt from the the Lord of the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns,and all that exists).

Or do they say: "He (Muhammad(P)) has forged it?" Say: "Bring then a surah (chapter) like unto it, and call upon whomsoever you can, besides Allah, if you are truthful!" [Qur'an 10:37-38]

Or they say, "He (Prophet Muhammad(P)) forged it (the Qur'an)." Say: "Bring you then ten forged surah (chapters) like unto it, and call whomsoever you can, other than Allah (to your help), if you speak the truth!" [Qur'an 11:13]

Or do they say: "He (Muhammad(P)) has forged it (this Qur'an)?" Nay! They believe not! Let them then produce a recital like unto it (the Qur'an) if they are truthful. [Qur'an 52:33-34]

the challenge remains.

arunma · May 17, 2005

cweb255 said:
Godless atheist? atheos atheos in Greek. God, I'm sure "love your neighbor as yourself" is a metaphor for hating atheists and liking only Christians, and maybe Jews and Muslims, no?

I didn't say I hate atheists. Even my own brother is an atheist; surely you wouldn't think that I hate him. It's the atheism that I don't like.

Morningstar said:
Little known fact, there are fewer contradicting verses in the Quran than there are in the Bible.

Not that it validates or invalidates either book...

Another little known fact: the Qu'ran is smaller than the New Testament. Besides that, I doubt any of the contradictory verses in either text are really contradictory. Atheists excel at inventing propaganda about the scriptures of any religion.

Electra · May 17, 2005

ServantofTheOne said:
The Qur'an claims to be the speech of the Creator. a message for all humanity directly from the Creator.

And for that very reason, there should be NO contradictions, metaphores, or verses to be 'interpreted'.

If such being, the creator, as Jews, Christians and Muslims picture him, said the words or set the law, from him directly, it should be clear cut and closed to any other interpretation, no?

Bin Qasim · May 17, 2005

u r the first buddist I saw talking about religion in kinda of negative way!!

anyways!! there r no contradictions in The Quran. if u think there is, pls bring it forward, we will try to answer best insha Allah.

btw we r going away from main topic as the main topic is about "why I left islam." Ibn Warraq's fans!!

ServantofTheOne · May 17, 2005

Electra said:
And for that very reason, there should be NO contradictions, metaphores, or verses to be 'interpreted'.

If such being, the creator, as Jews, Christians and Muslims picture him, said the words or set the law, from him directly, it should be clear cut and closed to any other interpretation, no?

Can i assume that no one has an argument against the status of Qur'an's inimitability.

-----
Arabist from University of Oxford, Hamilton Gibb was open upon about the style of the Qur'an. In his words:

"...the Meccans still demanded of him a miracle, and with remarkable boldness and self confidence Mohammad appealed as a supreme confirmation of his mission to the Koran itself. Like all Arabs they were the connoisseurs of language and rhetoric. Well, then if the Koran were his own composition other men could rival it. Let them produce ten verses like it. If they could not (and it is obvious that they could not), then let them accept the Koran as an outstanding evident miracle." H A R Gibb, Islam - A Historical Survey, 1980, Oxford University Press, p. 28.

"The influence of the Koran on the development of Arabic Literature has been incalculable, and exerted in many directions. Its ideas, its language, its rhymes pervade all subsequent literary works in greater or lesser measure. Its specific linguistic features were not emulated, either in the chancery prose of the next century or in the later prose writings, but it was at least partly due to the flexibility imparted by the Koran to the High Arabic idiom that the former could be so rapidly developed and adjusted to the new needs of the imperial government and an expanding society."
H A R Gibb, Arabic Literature - An Introduction, 1963, Oxford at Clarendon Press, p. 37.
-----------

Your question about interpretation will be addressed, God willing. but first let us establish whether or not the Qur'an is unique and whether or not the challenge of anyone to create a chapter like it has been accomplished or not.

Electra · May 17, 2005

Bin Qasim said:
u r the first buddist I saw talking about religion in kinda of negative way!!

anyways!! there r no contradictions in The Quran. if u think there is, pls bring it forward, we will try to answer best insha Allah.

btw we r going away from main topic as the main topic is about "why I left islam." Ibn Warraq's fans!!

Nagative? How is it negative? Its simply logical from where I am standing, unless questioning your religion you count as negative.

I have been thought to question and to seek answers - Buddha himself has thought to not blindly believe anything on the sole authority of teachers and holy men, or because certain act has been held in traditions for generations, but to believe what we have found to be true. I follow this idea because I have found to be right thing for me.

Bin Qasim · May 17, 2005

OK nothing wrong!! I may have misunderstood you. np I apologize to u if I hurt your feelings.

but u didn't mention any verses of contradicting views?

Electra · May 17, 2005

Bin Qasim said:
OK nothing wrong!! I may have misunderstood you. np I apologize to u if I hurt your feelings.

but u didn't mention any verses of contradicting views?

no harm done.

I'll be backy with verses of contradiction.

ServantofTheOne · May 17, 2005

Electra said:
Nagative? How is it negative? Its simply logical from where I am standing, unless questioning your religion you count as negative.

I have been thought to question and to seek answers - Buddha himself has thought to not blindly believe anything on the sole authority of teachers and holy men, or because certain act has been held in traditions for generations, but to believe what we have found to be true. I follow this idea because I have found to be right thing for me.

likewise we are taught in the Qur'an that belief should be based on conviction of truth rather than inherited belief or blind faith.

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