Intrest and Homosexuality

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fejao

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Intresting comparison........


But what is the alternative? Is it possible to affirm the truth of the Bible yet deny the anti-gay conclusions the Church has drawn from it for centuries? To answer that question, I want to explore another case where the Church has re-interpreted Scripture: usury. For centuries the Church used the Bible to condemn the lending of money for interest — for any interest, not just excessive interest. Today it has more money in the bank than many major corporations. And its explanation for this shift — that cultural changes render the Biblical prohibitions inapplicable — works just as well for homosexuality as for interest banking.

The Bible condemns usury in no uncertain terms. In the Book of Exodus God says “if you lend money to my people, to the poor among you. you shall not exact interest from them” (22: 25). The fifteenth Psalm says that those who lend at interest may not abide in the Lord's tent or dwell on his holy hill (1-5). Ezekiel compares usury to adultery, robbery, idolatry, and bribery, and asks whether he who “takes advanced or accrued interest; shall he then live? He shall not. He. shall surely die; his blood shall be upon him.” (18: 10-13; see also Deut. 23:19, Lev. 25: 35-37, Neh. 5: 7-10, Jer. 15:10, Ezek. 22: 12, and Luke 6:35)

The Biblical case against usury does not stand alone. Plato and Aristotle condemned the practice, as did Aristophanes, Cato, Seneca, and Plutarch. So did Saints Anselm, Augustine, Bonaventure, Thomas Aquinas, Jerome, and Ambrose, citing both Scripture and natural law. Numerous church councils and synods forbade usury: for instance, at the Third Council of Lateran (1179 C.E.), Pope Alexander III declared that both the Old and New Testaments condemn it and that violators should be excommunicated. Subsequent popes repeated these sanctions. In 1745, in the encyclical Vix Pervenit, Benedict XIV pronounced that “any gain which exceeds the amount the creditor gave is illicit and usurious.” Protestant opponents of usury included Martin Luther, Philip Melanchthon, and Urlich Zwingli. Nor is this condemnation unique to the Judeo-Christian tradition: the Qur'an condemns usury as well (2: 275, 3: 130). In short, the case against usury, like the case against homosexuality, appears to have strong biblical, philosophical, patristic, ecclesiastical, and theological grounds.

So what happened? Did the Church suddenly realize that it was missing out on something lucrative, and thus rescind its earlier prohibition? Not surprisingly, Church leaders offer a quite different explanation. According to them, economic conditions have changed substantially since Biblical times, such that usury no longer has the same consequences as it did when the prohibitions were issued. Therefore, those prohibitions no longer apply.

Corvino, J. (1996) The Bible Condemned Usurers, Too. Available from: http://available on request on request (06/05/2005).
 
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ahab

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Hi Fejao,

I cant quite see how you might be assuming if something is condemned then something else that is condemned might be alright.

As to the subject of usury. I am not sure everyone is entirely certain that the OT scriptures are a blanket condemnation of interest or excessive interest.
Nevertheless, I am not quite so sure Jesus is condemning interest as such any longer when he uses the spiritual analogy of the talents (ie Matt 25, Luke 19) "Why then didn't you put my money on deposit, so that when I came back, I could have collected it with interest?'
works just as well for homosexuality as for interest banking.
I would say on the contrary, it doesnt at all, Jesus uses increased interest as a return on investment as a parable, no such mention of same-sex sex, infact quite the exclusion of it in Matt 19.

As you have already pointed out different churches and ministries have over time and continue to differ on how they interpet the scriptures about what action they take with earning interest. However non have as I am aware said that the OT and NT didnt understand it; unlike homosexuality.
 
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fejao

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ahab said:
Hi Fejao,

I cant quite see how you might be assuming if something is condemned then something else that is condemned might be alright.

As to the subject of usury. I am not sure everyone is entirely certain that the OT scriptures are a blanket condemnation of interest or excessive interest.
Nevertheless, I am not quite so sure Jesus is condemning interest as such any longer when he uses the spiritual analogy of the talents (ie Matt 25, Luke 19) "Why then didn't you put my money on deposit, so that when I came back, I could have collected it with interest?' I would say on the contrary, it doesnt at all, Jesus uses increased interest as a return on investment as a parable, no such mention of same-sex sex, infact quite the exclusion of it in Matt 19.
As you have already pointed out different churches and ministries have over time and continue to differ on how they interpet the scriptures about what action they take with earning interest. However non have as I am aware said that the OT and NT didnt understand it; unlike homosexuality.

Who said I was assuming brother, I just said "intresting comparison" its clear from my post that this is a quote of an article as indicated by the citation. Also I would hope you read the full article before making judgement, however due to our many conversations in the past, I know your position.

Fejao x
 
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ahab

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Hi fejao,

Who said I was assuming brother, I just said "intresting comparison" its clear from my post that this is a quote of an article as indicated by the citation. Also I would hope you read the full article before making judgement, however due to our many conversations in the past, I know your position.
Sorry but you are assuming my friend. So am I assuming. The scriptures I have given, show to me, that the Christian traditional and historical interpretation of usury is not necessarily wrong. Its condemned in the OT but I would say not condemned in the NT, same-sex sex on the other hand is condemned in several places in both OT and NT.


God Bless
Ahab
 
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fejao

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ahab said:
Hi fejao,

Sorry but you are assuming my friend. So am I assuming. The scriptures I have given, show to me, that the Christian traditional and historical interpretation of usury is not necessarily wrong. Its condemned in the OT but I would say not condemned in the NT, same-sex sex on the other hand is condemned in several places in both OT and NT.

God Bless
Ahab

You are quite correct my friend, however within a very specific context in my own oppinion. The point of the article is, certain things seem set in stone theologically at certain points in time, however as time and history moves on so does biblical understanding and application, take the example of slavery which is allowed both in the OT and NT, but condemed by most of the church worldwide today.


Fejao x
 
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Crazy Liz

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ahab said:
As to the subject of usury. I am not sure everyone is entirely certain that the OT scriptures are a blanket condemnation of interest or excessive interest.
Nevertheless, I am not quite so sure Jesus is condemning interest as such any longer when he uses the spiritual analogy of the talents (ie Matt 25, Luke 19) "Why then didn't you put my money on deposit, so that when I came back, I could have collected it with interest?'
Is mentioning something in a parable an endorsement?

I think this is faulty exegesis.
 
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ahab

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Hi Fejao,

take the example of slavery which is allowed both in the OT and NT, but condemed by most of the church worldwide today.
I would say thats incorrect as well. He who sins is a slave to sin. In fact in 1 Tim 1:10 Paul makes it clear that for adulterers, and perverts, for slave traders and liars... etc. So IMO you have been unable not only to see Paul's reference to arsenokoites (same-sex sex) but also against slave trading both are condemned.
That a slave and a master must treat each other with respect as written elsewhere does :)
 
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ahab

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Hi Crazy Liz,

Is mentioning something in a parable an endorsement?

I think this is faulty exegesis.
Well perhaps, but one thing is for sure, as interest is mentioned in a parable and same-sex sex is condened directly, anyone claiming same-sex sex is what God wants is most definately faulty exegesis.

But I would say its use in a parable rather does tend to endorse rather than condemn it.
:)
 
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leecappella

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ahab said:
Hi Fejao,


I would say thats incorrect as well. He who sins is a slave to sin. In fact in 1 Tim 1:10 Paul makes it clear that for adulterers, and perverts, for slave traders and liars... etc. So IMO you have been unable not only to see Paul's reference to arsenokoites (same-sex sex) but also against slave trading both are condemned.
That a slave and a master must treat each other with respect as written elsewhere does :)

Being a slave to sin is one example of slavery. However, THAT type of slavery is not what is being referred to here. I don't think you are saying that since we all are a slave to sin, since we sin daily, then slavery as it's being referred to here is okay. Also, arsenokoitai is an unclear greek term. There is no proof that it refers to ALL forms of homosexuality. Maybe a specific context of it, if same sex activity at all. In my studies, this term refers to quasi-sacred devotees of idols (ie. those who prostitute themselves licentiously in devotion to an idol). See the old testament and its references to Molech and the warnings to Israel to not go 'a whoring' after Molech and like idol images as well as not to allow their sons or daughters to become dogs or harlots (ie. male and female prostitutes for idolatrous purposes).
 
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leecappella

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ahab said:
Hi fejao,

Sorry but you are assuming my friend. So am I assuming. The scriptures I have given, show to me, that the Christian traditional and historical interpretation of usury is not necessarily wrong. Its condemned in the OT but I would say not condemned in the NT, same-sex sex on the other hand is condemned in several places in both OT and NT.

God Bless
Ahab

There is something to be said for these comparisons of what is said in the OT and not said in the NT. The condemnation of eating certain foods was given in the OT, but in the NT, it was eradicated by Jesus' implication that what goes in one's body does not defile them, but what comes out of someone does defile them. Looked at deeper, Jesus is saying the externalities of something eaten means nothing to one's soul and says nothing about a person's heart. Likewise, I'd say, the gender of one's love is an externality that has no bearing on one's soul and the kind of heart they have, just as it is with the physical characteristic of what one eats. It's simple common sense and THAT is how Jesus approached scripture. He did not do so like the Pharisees of his day and the Phariesees of our day (those who take scripture as it reads without any concern for human need). Jesus put human need above the letter of the law. That's difficult to do for a Pharisee or a Pharisee like individual. When the disciples were seen as breaking the law by picking and eating corn from a corn field, Jesus said they were innocent, while the conservatives (Phariesees) said they were guilty according to what is written. Hmm. Jesus requires mercy, not sacrifice. Some learn this and apply this, but tearing away from what is written is SO hard for some, is it not? There is nothing about the outward appearance that affects the soul! If you're human, it does. Why? Because humans look on the outward, while God looks on the heart. Simple, but oh so difficult for some to grasp. The bible does not say that a certain kind of love is of God. It says God IS love and there are many forms of love. Many people worship differently, yet they love. There are varying perceptions of God, but those who hold these perceptions still love. I believe their love is counted in their favor since they love. The greatest of all commandments is to love God and neighbor. There once were tons of laws, then there were 10. Now, there are only two: love God and neighbor as thyself. Don't forget the 'as thyself' part of the law.
 
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ahab

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Hi leecapella:wave:

However, THAT type of slavery is not what is being referred to here.

I wpuld say it most definately is. As I believe same-sex sex is clearly a sin and seeking interest or excessive interest for personal gain would be greed and also a sin, I believe the quote is entirely appropriate. In this resepct would you not agree?
I don't think you are saying that since we all are a slave to sin, since we sin daily, then slavery as it's being referred to here is okay.
I am not saying that at all. I am saying that IMO we are only slaves to sin when we dont recognise the sin and are therefore mastered by it. Repenting and rebuking sin and seeking forgiveness isnt being a slave to sin because Jesus has that forgiveness and has conquered sin for us, so we need Jesus. We have put sin behind us, we no longer revel in it.
Also, arsenokoitai is an unclear greek term. There is no proof that it refers to ALL forms of homosexuality.
Ah but my reference to 1 Tim 1:10 was about slave trading being a sin to counter the claim made by Fejao that slavery was 'allowed' in both OT and NT.

That it just happened to include a same-sex sex reference and not a usury reference was appropriate to indicate the poster missing references that condemn both same-sex sex and slave trading. As to the form of same-sex sex, it dosnt say in 1 Tim 1:10 but neither does it says what sort of slave trading might be wrong.
In my studies, this term refers to quasi-sacred devotees of idols (ie. those who prostitute themselves licentiously in devotion to an idol).
In my studies I see that proposed by the likes of Wink, Boswell, JJ McNiel etc, but I also see that it is also probably Lev 18:22 as argued by Gagnon Robert Gagnon,, The Bible and Homosexual Practice: Texts and Hermeneutics (Nashville: Abingdon Press, 2001) and David F. Wright David F. Wright, "Homosexuals or Prostitutes? The Meaning of ARSENOKOITAI (1 Cor. 6:9, 1 Tim. 1:10)," Vigiliae Christianae 38 (1984) and Thomas E. Schmidt for example. And I also refer to you the recent gay thread on this section where Rom 1 comdemns the same-sex act itself as being not the truth of God. I also ask you to consider that marriage is the only place where sexual activity is countenanced in the Bible Matt 19, Gen 2, 1 Cor 7 etc and would suugest that all sex outside marriage is infact idoloty as well when peopmted as acceptable.

But are you trying to debate homosexuality alone or the relationship between the interpreatations of interest and same-sex sex as I believe the thread is about?

:wave:
 
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Crazy Liz

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ahab said:
IMO this parable rather indicates that Jesus audience would understand this 'analogy' concerning interest, particulalry the Pharisees and Sadducees, but Jesus message is against greed not against wealth. If one cant serve God and money, that doesnt mean money cant be used wisely for serving God's purposes.:)
I never thought this parable was ABOUT greed or money at all. Why do you?
 
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ahab

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:) Hi Crazy Liz,

I never thought this parable was ABOUT greed or money at all. Why do you?
I think as its a parable it has a spiritual message. The analogy is money and interest. God expects us to live our lives as children and sons, so He expects a return on His investment of the Kingdom. That’s how I see the parable.

How do you see the parable?
 
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Grey Eminence

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fejao said:
The Biblical case against usury does not stand alone. Plato and Aristotle condemned the practice, as did Aristophanes, Cato, Seneca, and Plutarch. So did Saints Anselm, Augustine, Bonaventure, Thomas Aquinas, Jerome, and Ambrose, citing both Scripture and natural law. Numerous church councils and synods forbade usury: for instance, at the Third Council of Lateran (1179 C.E.), Pope Alexander III declared that both the Old and New Testaments condemn it and that violators should be excommunicated. Subsequent popes repeated these sanctions. In 1745, in the encyclical Vix Pervenit, Benedict XIV pronounced that “any gain which exceeds the amount the creditor gave is illicit and usurious.” Protestant opponents of usury included Martin Luther, Philip Melanchthon, and Urlich Zwingli. Nor is this condemnation unique to the Judeo-Christian tradition: the Qur'an condemns usury as well (2: 275, 3: 130). In short, the case against usury, like the case against homosexuality, appears to have strong biblical, philosophical, patristic, ecclesiastical, and theological grounds.

The application of interest to loan took two different routes during the 11th and 12th centuries.

One route was loans for personal consumption. Like modern credit cards they charged on the order of 20 to 30% from any of the major Italian banking houses during the 12th and 13th century. This was considered to be usury.

The other route was loan for commercial use. This was not considered to be usury.

During the 12th and 13th century loans for this purpose could be had at rates ranging between 4 and 8% from the major Italian banking houses. However the use of these loans was directed towards industrial/commerical purposes. Also included was the housing market as the money invested still represented a tangible asset that in the event of arreas of payments could be seized.

The rational at the time, for this not constituting usury, was that the money borrowed was for a legitimate commercial purpose. At the same time the agency lending the funds, as a result of lending the funds, lost the commercial benefit of being able to use the funds for thier own aims. Hence a basic rate of interest simply allowed them to make a basic level of profit from allowing others to make use of their assets.
 
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Crazy Liz

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ahab said:
:) Hi Crazy Liz,

I think as its a parable it has a spiritual message. The analogy is money and interest. God expects us to live our lives as children and sons, so He expects a return on His investment of the Kingdom. That’s how I see the parable.

How do you see the parable?
I agree. The point of the parable has nothing to do with money, and therefore it is improper to use the parable to support an argument that God endorses usury, just as it would be improper to interpret the parable in Luke 16:1-9 to support an argument that God endorses embezzlement.
 
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ahab

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Hi Crazy Liz,

Well you said it has noting to do with money, its does because the analogy is money (talents) and interest.
As to Luke 16, I do tend to agree with your comparison but I would point out that the master did recognise the manager was dishonest its just that he had acted shrewdly. There is no indication in Matt 25 that the interest gained on the money might be dishnonest. And the other point of course is that there is no mention of same-sex sex being acceptbale anywhere in the OT or NT.

:)
 
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