Once saved always saved... an impossible dream
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Sorry, I should have made this assumptoin, my faultsethsmommy said:Ok what does this have to do with anything
you said
you seem to forget that we NEVER are without our sin nature.
REAL christian ARE capable of sinning and even apostating themselves as scritpure clearly shows.
You would seem to think that the person was faking all along.
While that is the case in many, and I daresay MOST cases, it does not nullify that the warnings against falling away were written TO REAL christians
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Melbelle
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Ok so you think blaspmy is sinning? I never one time said or even made it sound like we are without sin, I know for one I'm not with out sin I said that earlier. Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost (Matthew 12:31,32; Mark 3:28,29; Luke 12:10) is regarded by some as a continued and obstinate rejection of the gospel, and hence is an unpardonable sin, simply because as long as a sinner remains in unbelief he voluntarily excludes himself from pardon. Others regard the expression as designating the sin of attributing to the power of Satan those miracles which Christ performed, or generally those works which are the result of the Spirit's agency.
In the sense of speaking evil of God this word is found in Psalms 74:18; Isaiah 52:5; Romans 2:24; Revelation 13:1,6; 16:9,11,21. It denotes also any kind of calumny, or evil-speaking, or abuse (1 Kings 21:10; Acts 13:45; 18:6, etc.). Our Lord was accused of blasphemy when he claimed to be the Son of God (Matthew 26:65; Compare Matthew 9:3; Mark 2:7). They who deny his Messiahship blaspheme Jesus (Luke 22:65; John 10:36).
In the sense of speaking evil of God this word is found in Psalms 74:18; Isaiah 52:5; Romans 2:24; Revelation 13:1,6; 16:9,11,21. It denotes also any kind of calumny, or evil-speaking, or abuse (1 Kings 21:10; Acts 13:45; 18:6, etc.). Our Lord was accused of blasphemy when he claimed to be the Son of God (Matthew 26:65; Compare Matthew 9:3; Mark 2:7). They who deny his Messiahship blaspheme Jesus (Luke 22:65; John 10:36).
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Jesus defined blasphemy of the Spirit as unforgivable, yes.
Simple answer sis.
Show me chapter and verse for this.
What does Jesus show tho?
it doesnt matter what WE want it to say.
It only matters what it does say on this matter.
Anyone who rejects salvatoin their whole life isnt ''blaspheming''.
They are simply not born again. It doesnt take blaspemy to just reject the free gift.
By the very definition of the word it takes SPEAKING against someone to do so..
"Speaking evil of" is a good defintion.
Very good sis
This fits perfectly with what Jesus said about speaking a word against the Spirit being blasphemy.
WE are the ones who added this idea that it is a lifetime of rejecting the gospel.
That would merely make one unsaved, not commiting blasphemy.
I think this is a twist the OSAS doctrine has to put on scripture to make the theology work.
If we are indeed capable of just blaspheming with our mouths, then it defies the whole OSAS doctrine as one could technically be born again, then for some reason, who knows what that case may be, blaspheme the Spirit.
Possibly someone who say lost a child or a spouse and is angered with God.
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Melbelle
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<Follower> said:
Jesus defined blasphemy of the Spirit as unforgivable, yes.
Simple answer sis.
Show me chapter and verse for this.
What does Jesus show tho?
it doesnt matter what WE want it to say.
It only matters what it does say on this matter.
Anyone who rejects salvatoin their whole life isnt ''blaspheming''.
They are simply not born again. It doesnt take blaspemy to just reject the free gift.
By the very definition of the word it takes SPEAKING against someone to do so..
"Speaking evil of" is a good defintion.
Very good sis
This fits perfectly with what Jesus said about speaking a word against the Spirit being blasphemy.
WE are the ones who added this idea that it is a lifetime of rejecting the gospel.
That would merely make one unsaved, not commiting blasphemy.
I think this is a twist the OSAS doctrine has to put on scripture to make the theology work.
If we are indeed capable of just blaspheming with our mouths, then it defies the whole OSAS doctrine as one could technically be born again, then for some reason, who knows what that case may be, blaspheme the Spirit.
Possibly someone who say lost a child or a spouse and is angered with God.
I took all this out of a bible dictionary so if you do not believe this then take it up with that dictionary...
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sethsmommy said:
I believe that is denial of gospel is exactly what Jesus was refering to in the above verses. Look at the passage:
Mat 12:22 Then a demon-possessed man {who was} blind and mute was brought to Jesus, and He healed him, so that the mute man spoke and saw.
Mat 12:23 All the crowds were amazed, and were saying, "This man cannot be the Son of David, can he?"
Mat 12:24 But when the Pharisees heard {this,} they said, "This man casts out demons only by Beelzebul the ruler of the demons."
Mat 12:25 And knowing their thoughts Jesus said to them, "Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and any city or house divided against itself will not stand.
Mat 12:26 "If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then will his kingdom stand?
Mat 12:27 "If I by Beelzebul cast out demons, by whom do your sons cast {them} out? For this reason they will be your judges.
Mat 12:28 "But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
Mat 12:29 "Or how can anyone enter the strong man's house and carry off his property, unless he first binds the strong {man?} And then he will plunder his house.
Mat 12:30 "He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters.
Mat 12:31 "Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.
Blasphemy against the Spirit is denial of Jesus Christ and that He is of/is God. "He who is not with Me is against Me;"
As John would later clarify:
1Jo 2:22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.
Jesus "cast out demons by the Spirit of God" , therefore, denial that Jesus was dong miracles through the Spirit was denying Him. The words can be spoken out loud or in our head.
Jamieson, Fawsett & Brown explains it as:
These remarks so narrow the question that the true sense of our Lord's words seem to disclose themselves at once. It is a contrast between slandering "the Son of man" in His veiled condition and unfinished work--which might be done "ignorantly, in unbelief" ( 1Ti 1:13 ), and slandering the same blessed Person after the blaze of glory which the Holy Ghost was soon to throw around His claims, and in the full knowledge of all that. This would be to slander Him with eyes open, or to do it "presumptuously." To blaspheme Christ in the former condition--when even the apostles stumbled at many things--left them still open to conviction on fuller light: but to blaspheme Him in the latter condition would be to hate the light the clearer it became, and resolutely to shut it out; which, of course, precludes salvation. (See on JF & B for Heb 10:26-29). The Pharisees had not as yet done this; but in charging Jesus with being in league with hell they were displaying beforehand a malignant determination to shut their eyes to all evidence, and so, bordering upon, and in spirit committing, the unpardonable sin.
Matthew Henry:
and this blasphemy is excepted, not for any defect of mercy in God or merit in Christ, but because it inevitably leaves the sinner in infidelity and impenitency. We have reason to think that none are guilty of this sin, who believe that Christ is the Son of God, and sincerely desire to have part in his merit and mercy: and those who fear they have committed this sin, give a good sign that they have not. ....
But if, when the Holy Ghost is given, in his inward gifts of revelation, speaking with tongues, and the like, such as were the distributions of the Spirit among the apostles, if they continue to blaspheme the Spirit likewise, as an evil spirit, there is no hope of them that they will ever be brought to believe in Christ; for First, Those gifts of the Holy Ghost in the apostles were the last proof that God designed to make use of for the confirming of the gospel, and were still kept in reserve, when other methods preceded. Secondly, This was the most powerful evidence, and more apt to convince than miracles themselves. Thirdly, Those therefore who blaspheme this dispensation of the Spirit, cannot possibly be brought to believe in Christ; those who shall impute them to a collusion with Satan, as the Pharisees did the miracles, what can convince them? This is such a strong hold of infidelity as a man can never be beaten out of, and is therefore unpardonable, because hereby repentance is hid from the sinners eyes.
Those Pharisee's were denying what was in front of their eyes - the working of a mircle by the Holy Spirit. As Henry wrote, if they continue to phaspheme, they can't be brought to belief in order to receive salvation in the first place.
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I believe i did agree with most of it.sethsmommy said:
I didnt agree with making blaspemy something its not, that was all.
Did the dictionary simply present the differnt theologies, or state them as fact?
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that may be considered blasphemy as well, but it doesnt change the what Jesus said directly.
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SPALATIN
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sethsmommy said:
So when did you quit being a sinner even though you have Christ? I have known Christ since I was a child and that doesn't stop me from Sinning on an almost everyday basis. If I have the penchant to sin than I have the penchant to choose to reject him. Doesn't mean I never knew him or was not at one time, part of his family.
I disagree with your statement only because it is not truth. We are selfish people and even with Christ's saving grace we are prone to sin because it is part of our nature.
If you were born into a family and one day decided that wasn't for you and you left does that mean you were never part of that family? No and that is why saying that you were never really a child of God if you leave him and go your own way is wrong to say. You were once a part of a family and now you are not so that blows this thinking a bit.
Think of the prodigal son. His father had all this wealth and the son decided to take his share and go somewhere else. Did that mean that he had not been part of his father's household? No, it just meant that he wasn't part of it while he was gone. When he came back he was awarded all the same rights and priveleges of being a son again and his Dad even threw him a huge party and killed the slaughtered the best of the livestock. So this also refutes your idea that a person who has blasphemed God was never there to begin with.
God loved us and sent his son to die for us. If we are part of him at any time we are part of his family, but because of our innate ability to screw things up we do have within our will the ability to reject our position in the family and leave. It is also highly unlikely that we will ever come back because once we reject him he will leave us on our own and we do not have it in our nature to seek God out.
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She never said we sin no more.SLStrohkirch said:
What does this mean:
" I never one time said or even made it sound like we are without sin, I know for one I'm not with out sin I said that earlier. "
You need to read the posts.
So where does it say that once we are born again, we can become unborn again? Where does it say that christians can be unadopted?
How good is God's pledge? He seals us in the Holy Spirit as HIS pledge of our inheritance (the Greek tenses, mood and voice of the sealing in the spirit verses show it is GOD who seals and His pledge to us - His doing).
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irrelvant.FreeinChrist said:
where does it say ''trinity''?
yet it IS there.
the text DOES show that we can apostate ourselves.
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well, the wifey is making me leave now.
Sorry for those who feel offended. That is not my intent.
Sorry for those who feel offended. That is not my intent.
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Beoga
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again, i think 1 John 2:19 sheds a lot of light on the apostate:
1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. [kjv]
1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. [esv]
1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. [kjv]
1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. [esv]
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Well as a born-again Christian now since a early age of 9 years old I would love to respond to this here question with my lifestyle. My walk began at a early age, which the death of my sister sent me into a wild and crazy lifestyle with drugs and alcohol up until a year ago. I'm now 45 years old, so you could say I've been best at being a looser and a drug addict all my life. Wrong! All throught my life I have been in and out of my faith, or relationship with Christ. I have done things I will only say that I will stand before God to reveal to the generel public. I 'm proof that once saved always saved. I have never taken a life if thats whats on your mind.LMHO Yet within seconds it almost happened. I have tryed sucide twice. Been in and our of the Outlaw biker lifestyle for almost 12 years. Hurt alot of people in my days where this very scipture was what many used to allow me to think I was a false prophet, or a fallen child. I have walk through the valley of shaddows of death where I have had my life threaten for being a Christian. I stood there and said in the blood of Jesus so be it. Well I'm typen so I made it to this point. I hung out with what I though was Hell on earth the Hell Angels for three years. I truly beleaved I was lost and seperated from God many times in my life. I had a PCP overdose three years ago, which I totlay cook mt brain. I had to relaern my life all over again, which was everything. Yet Gods word is so enriched in me I have never faild to remeber it. Fath as small as what? A mustard seed. Man you can't even really see a mustard seed, but thats all it takes. I gace back my mustard seed to God in Jeus name to share with this world this fact. There is nothing in all creation that can or will seperate you from the love of God. No height nor depth, nor things present, nor things past. Nothing, nothing. Yet it is a battle we are in children! A battle that we must claim the blood of Christ to carry use to that day Phil 1:6 Zec 10 Speaks of how mad God is at those who say we fall away, for it's just not true at all. He is the shepherd who went all the way to the cross and died to pay for sin for everysingle person in this world. If we cnfess our sin and tirn to Him He will keep us until that day in Christ Jesus. Satan the acuuser of the fellowship is hard at work to tell everyone that we can loose this gift, which if you don't talk Gods truth you fall for the lie. The word of God is active and sharper then a two edge sword it seperates the lie for the truth, which is He is our Father who will never leave nor forsake us. We leave Him for lies of Satan! May God give us all the faith and Grace to realize if you fall for the lie you can repent and cliam the right through the Blood of Christ only to be mmore then a conqueror over evilness and lies. In Jesus name and Grace I lift up this message to you who suffer suck lies to clain your right back again and press into His Grace. My mission in Christ is this messgae to reach those who have fallen away to realease the days are short my fellow brothers and sisters. We are the key to unlock broken dreams with the meassge of the good news, which is Jesus is alive and that JESUS IS STILL LORD PRAISE GOD HE STILL SAVES!
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SPALATIN
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FreeinChrist said:
But by her saying that they were probably never a true Christian anyway pre-supposes that one has stopped sinning once Christ has received them. We are not saying that a person who is in Christ will leave, but that it is possible to do so because of the weakness of the flesh.
The danger of Once Saved Always saved puts one in danger of believing in free grace which is also a fallacy as St. Paul pointed out in scripture several times. I believe that Mrs. Wilde said that her husband and son fell into this trap because a Pastor told them this so now they are living as they please and not as God pleases.
Simul Justus et Peccator is what the Bible teaches.
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cygnusx1
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sethsmommy said:
YES! that is the one great lesson I have learned from this thread .........
It is not enough to post a scripture , you will be told it is an interpretation.
And as soon as you disagree , the other person gets emotional and defensive , which inevitably leads to unguarded and irrational statements.
Then when you see someone make a comeback , not with scripture but with a particular interpretation of scripture you get critisised for rejecting it , but all the while you know full well you can find over TWENTY Five leading commentators that would help your own position and make the other position positively rediculous , so why not DO THAT ?
Because if men will not submit to the clear teaching of scripture , they most definately will not listen to over 25 Scholarly interpretations.....and in the end instead of God's word holding the final position of authority it is man , men should always seek not only to be taught in humility , but be able to submit to what they find ........... would that this were so , but take the doctrine of Hell and see just how it is "got rid of" ........ same goes for Election , men despise it , they cannot ignore it , so they Change it.
The bottom line is we all carry baggage , we are all Highly influenced by the World's philosophies , and if Scripture disagrees with our treasured understanding , then scripture often must be made to bow the knee , we end up being like the Jews stiff-necked and defiant , not realising we know nothing , until God teaches us from His word.
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