CPR Question

Myah,
I will be glad to give you information. I am a Christian, and I don't think that one's belief in Christ has any bearing on DNR decisions. I have worked in ICU for over 20 years. In this time many patients are "DNR". It is NOT murder! Allowing someone a peaceful death is letting God's will be done. Neither Catholic nor Protestant denominations have rules that someone must be resuscitated.
CPR and resuscitation was invented for heart attack victims to provide circulation until other help can be given. It is not intended to forestall death. In reality, given you grandad's conditions, if he experienced a worsening of his conditions, and his heart stopped, most likely if he were resuscitated, he would have less than a 1 in 10 chance of leaving the hospital alive, and less than that of going back to his home, and not to a nursing home. What your family members do not understand is that procedures that don't help are just as unethical as doing things intentionally harmful, especially in light of your grandfather's wishes.
Most large hospitals have an ethics committee who will review cases such as these where families are in disagreement on following a loved one's wishes. On the one hand your mother and uncle may be having a difficult time letting go of their parent. On the other, your grandfather is entitled to make decisions regarding his medical care. The hospital just doesn't want to get sued, which is why they would allow families to overrule someone's decision. The hospital chaplain may be a helpful in getting dialogue between your mom and grandfather going. You might want to talk to the chaplain.
I am sorry your family has to go through this. It is always hard to have illness overtake a loved one. It is especially hard when there is discord over decisions that should be discussed long before someone gets sick.
I will keep you and your family in my prayers.

I would agree with you Myah, a person has every right to decide what medical procedures they wish to partake in (so long as it is not endangering the medical safety of other people, and then it becomes a sticky mess of uncertain ethics.)


Christians can get confused sometimes between something being nice and something being right, they believe that human life is sacred because God created us to be in communion with Him, but forget that everyone will eventually die. It seems that maybe your Uncle and Mother are not coping with the thought of your Grandfather dying very well, and taking some of their grief out on you I pray that your relationships will heal

I agree with you too, Myah. You have good insight into a difficult situation

If you have the opportunity, it might be an idea to chat with one of the doctors looking after your grandad, and express your feelings and those of your family.

They may be able to explain things differently to your family, so that they understand that resuscitation of someone so ill is not only futile, but also unkind and painful for a person who inevitably will die of their illness.

If it is time for God to take your Grandad, perhaps the occasion should be a peaceful one for him, and for his family and his medical carers.

God bless you

Myah said:

This was just something that came to me...

My grandfather (who is a minister) has on his medical charts that he is a DNR (do not resuscitate). He has been diagnosed with heart disease, emphysemia, and diabetes as well as being a widower. He has a pacemaker and is on O2 regularly.
Here's my question for you, is it moral to let him die or would it be right to resuscitate him? Where I live, the law says that even if the patient is a DNR on their charts, the family can still request that he be resuscitated and a medical worker would have to comply.
My family and I are in disagreement with this. I think it would be best with all his health problems that we should acknowledge his wishes. Yes, I love him, but I know he is extremely ill and I think that resuscitation would not be helping him. However, my mother (a Catholic) and my uncle (a Church of Christ minister) believe that to not do so would be tantamount to murder.
When I ask why, I am told that since I am not a Christian I couldn't understand.
Is there any Christian who could maybe explain about this? I would ask my grandfather, but I don't want to upset him.

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I don't think it would upset him if you were to ask him why he chose to give a DNR order and how he feels about the morality of it. I think it would show how much you, as a grandchild, are interested in understandimg him and the legacy he wants to leave behind.

You don't have to mention the other family members' disagreement unless he brings it up. You just want to know your grandpa better and understand what he believes. I think he would be honored to have you respect him so much as to ask him about it.

Myah said:

I know why he wanted to be a DNR.

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How do you know? Did he tell you?

I don't mean to sound argumentative, but lots of time information is passed around indirectly in families, and information is kept from certain people so as not to upset them. Family members who are strong enough not to play those games can do a lot of good.

If I were having my last opportunities to speak with a grandparent, I would want to talk about important things. All mine have been gone for years now, so this is something I've been thinking about. My grandmother gave orders (no feeding tube) that her son and daughter were willing to support, but some of the grandchildren thought were wrong. It was a rough time, but we got through it. It would have done my sister good if she had been able to talk to Grandma about her orders, even though she disagreed, and I don't think it would have upset Grandma too much.

In your shoes, I might ask my grandfather how he & his children came to have such different ideas. You might learn something you couldn't learn any other way and might wonder aobut years from now. Also, lots of old and sick people give DNR orders so as "not to be a burden" on their families and others. Some need to have their families tell them, "You don't have to die for our sakes."

You know your family better than any of us, so feel free to discard any ideas you really don't think are appropriate. However, most people who "don't want to upset" their relatives give them too little credit.

As far as your mother & uncle's statement that you wouldn't understand because you're not a Christian, I think it's pretty obvious your Granfather is a Christian & doesn't agree with them. Ask your mother if she would introduce you to her priest so he could explain it to you. I happen to know the Roman Catholic Church does NOT teach that a DNR order for a terminal patient is tantamount to murder. This is often something a Roman Catholic will only believe if they hear it directly from their priest.

Myah said:

Being told I'm going to hell because of it...

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Well, I guess one handy response to your Mother and Uncle would be that you're going to hell (according to Christian beliefs) whether you resuscitate your grandfather or not, so that really isn't an issue. Granted, you don't believe in hell, but they are the ones that have been threatening you with it as a result of this intended action.

Following your grandfather's wishes is exactly the right and proper thing to do. And for someone with multiple, progressive, and ultimately terminal medical problems, CPR and intensive life support is clearly not indicated, just from the medical standpoint. Your mother and uncle almost certainly have issues that prevent them from seeing the inevitable. But a couple of things you might do: 1) I assume he is hospitalized. All hospitals have a chaplain, or a pastoral care department, and these individuals are very comfortable with appropriate DNR plans. Ask the hospital chaplain to call your mother or uncle, and explain how forgoing CPR is not in any way tantamount to murder. They may accept it better if they hear it from another person of faith. And maybe the hospital chaplain can contact their pastor(s), because they would probably benefit from some counseling. 2) If your relatives are religious believers, would they accept the God's will argument? If it's God's plan for your grandfather to recover, then that will happen regardless of whether he gets CPR or not. God certainly doesn't require CPR to heal someone. And if it's your grandfather's time, then God will take him no matter what the doctors do. Just some things to think about. And good luck in a very difficult situation.

Well I don't have anything to add to this thread except here's a and a thank you for being a brave and loving granddaughter!
tulc

Hi, Myah. I'm so sorry you have to be in this situation. I know it isn't easy, and when a loved one is involved, it's harder. And then to have disagreement in the family...Been there. It's rough; I know.

I guess your family has a hard time dealing with his decision, and it's never fun to see someone decide to go, especially before it happens. But the truth is, he's very ill. If he passes to the next world, that isn't murder; that's the life cycle. Murder is to kill someone. And he has decided that when his body gives out, he'd like it to remain that way. That's simply letting nature run its course.

Again; I'm sorry you have to go through this. But you're right.

Respect his wish to set free should death chose to embrace him. No matter what your opinion is on the situation, it is his decision, and he has good reasons for it. I have had to deal with a similar issue when my grandmother was dying. Many people, no matter how strong they are, realize there is a point at which fighting for their live is no longer worth it, and their time has expired.

I think you should respect your Grandfathers wishes however hard it is. I also think that you should try and talk with him some more about what his children think of his DNR decision.

I wish there was more I could do... but here's a big

leinahtan

Please abide by your granfather's wishes! As a Christian & a nurse, I have seen families want to hang on to people, and in the process have done more harm than good! Your grandfather is a Christian & ready to go...support him!


Love & Blessings!
dee