Is Hal Lindsey accurate in his pradictions.

Willis Deal · Apr 26, 2002

GW,

I don't know how many different ways I can say 'It only matters what can be supported from the bible'. Either you agree or you don't, if you don't agree that the bible is the final authority then you can justify quoting Darby, or Hal Lindsey, or anyone else. If you agree that the bible is the final authority then dating any particular idea or belief system is irrelevant since the bible will either support or refute any particular belief.

BULWARK · Apr 27, 2002

There problem is though Willis, that it all depends on who is reading the bible because we would even come to disagreement on what the bible says, so It can make it hard to know the truth considering we come to different conclusions from scripture its self.

These other teachers you mentioned, claim there doctrines are from the bible but history shows that Christians have changed what they believe over time and it has changed more that a couple of times.

All in the name of what scripture means.

So I think it is worth testing these teachers in hine sight to see if they were accurate in their studies of the bible.

After all, these were supposed to be well educated bible teachers that should know more than all of us put together so I think it is interesting to test and see how Christian doctrine changes so much simply because this generation decided to listen to that persons bible studies and conclusions. But after time passes allot of the stuff is rejected or proved wrong.

All of this is built upon the foundation of scripture and I think we should examine why Christian doctrine changes from generation to generation.

There is only one bible truth but we get a new bible truth every single generation it seems.

Truth???? What`s that? :scratch:

if we can determine that hal lindsey was a false teacher in hine sight , then that would be important to now considering that modern christianity is so influenced by this man , even if you have never read his books , you learned his stuff over the pulpit.

so was Hal Lindsey anything more than a false teacher of christianity because we have a history full of those frauds.

is Hal in the same catagory as russel and rutherford and other genuinely deluded bible teachers. :scratch:

rollinTHUNDER · Apr 27, 2002

The truth about the mystery was not to be known until the last days.

Daniel 12: 9-10 - "He said, "Go your way, Daniel, for these words are concealed and sealed up until the end time. (10)Many will be purged, purified and refined, but the wicked will act wickedly; and none of the wicked will understand, but those who have insight will understand."

Willis Deal · Apr 27, 2002

JC,

There is a fatal flaw in your logic.

Let's say that Mr. Important Prophecy teacher (Mr. IP) believes Jesus was crucified, died on the cross, was buried, rose the third day, was the Son of God, and believes on Him to save Mr. IP from his sins. Mr. IP also believes Jesus will come the second time in the clouds, will resurrect the dead in Christ, and the living righteous will rise to meet Jesus in the air, and expects all these events to occur in 1988. Now if Mr. IP's expectations are proven wrong and Jesus did not return in 1988 does that then prove that Jesus was not crucified, did not die on the cross, nor was He resurrected from the dead? If Mr. IP's failed expectations do not disprove the death and resurrection how then can it disprove the return in the clouds, resurrection of the dead in Christ, and the rising of the righteous living to meet Jesus in the air?

BULWARK · Apr 27, 2002

I see what your saying Willis.

Lets say MR IP makes these biblical claims, which are most defiantly biblical, and then he adds to those doctrines of Christ and says something against scripture.

IE. MR IP expects these events of Christs return to occur in 1988.

Now, MR IP needed to come up with that date some how, most likely by using scripture.

Now, I see that in the bible, it says that no man nows the time or the hour.

Therefore I would find fault in his doctrines immediately even without hine sight.

So, he teaches the true gospel of salvation in Christ but now he has gone further and taught false teachings to the church.

If those teachings take, then that false teaching would make MR IP a dangerously false teacher.

Not just because of the truth he teachs but because of the lie he teachs.

a little levin destroys the whole deal.

Now, years pass and this date passes with all of his reasons for Jesus return has failed.

So, lets say his teaching convinced 30% of the church and then he is proved wrong and we all become awear that this mans futuristic claims are false and as scripture says, "that is how we tell a false prophet or teacher".

So, do we then listen to MR IP change his words and Ideas and then convince us all to then look for a date say,"1920"
Or would we become awear that he is a false teacher.

Now, does that mean he isnt a Christian (or saved if you like), I dont think so, it just makes him a false teacher because he taught false teachings.

Would I class the man as a Christian, "yes, would I class the man as a prophet, "NO" or a teacher, "NO" or even my pastor "NO WAY".

Would I continue to read and trust his teachings, "You got to be kidding mate, NO WAY.

Is that what you mean Willis? Did I cover what you meant; I hope I didnt missunderstand your point.

Hey thunder, thanks for contributing.

I have wondered about those scriptures myself.

I always took that as the technology of the last hundred yrs as knowledge increasing.

Like the earth not being flat but round.
This book of Daniel has been opened in these last times by many different peoples and sects and examined in-depth.

There is different opinions on its meaning but it`s meaning has defiantly been opened up to us in these last days.

Do you believe that this prophesy in Daniel is personally referring to Hal Lindseys doctrines of Daniel or was that to mean that Daniel will be opened up in a general way.

There is a bit of a duel fulfilment to this, when the apostles came along, it was classed as the last days as well and Paul states that, things that were secret in the O/T was now reviled in there times. I have also wondered if Paul was referring to Daniels prediction of,"these words are concealed and sealed up until the end time. (10) Many will be purged, purified and refined, but the wicked will act wickedly; and none of the wicked will understand, but those who have insight will understand
." can also have it`s fullfillment in the first century when god enlitened the apostles and many were perged but the wicked still did wickedly.

Hey, theres this song on the TV at there moment, HONESTLY.

It goes like this. HISTORY, NEVER REPEATS , I TELL MYSELF BEFORE I GO TO SLEEP.

The truth is though; truth HISTORY repeats its self all the time.

I think it is more accurate to say that the angel was referring to these later times because the book of Daniel has been opened and studied by every Christian sect you can think of over the last 100 hrs alone.

So I am of the opinion that the true fulfilment is for today.

But I dont think it was souly referring to Hal Lindsey though thunder.

Is that what you believe thunder.

BULWARK

Willis Deal · Apr 27, 2002

JC,

I think that pretty much covers all the bases. The burden would be upon Mr. IP to clarify which of his teachings rely upon his personal understanding and expectation and which of his teachings are absolute final truth to avoid being labeled a false teacher when his expectations fail.

rollinTHUNDER · Apr 27, 2002

Originally posted by BULWARK

Hey thunder, thanks for contributing.

I have wondered about those scriptures myself.

I always took that as the technology of the last hundred yrs as knowledge increasing.

Like the earth not being flat but round.
This book of Daniel has been opened in these last times by many different peoples and sects and examined in-depth.

There is different opinions on its meaning but it`s meaning has defiantly been opened up to us in these last days.

Do you believe that this prophesy in Daniel is personally referring to Hal Lindseys doctrines of Daniel or was that to mean that Daniel will be opened up in a general way.

There is a bit of a duel fulfilment to this, when the apostles came along, it was classed as the last days as well and Paul states that, things that were secret in the O/T was now reviled in there times.
It goes like this. HISTORY, NEVER REPEATS , I TELL MYSELF BEFORE I GO TO SLEEP.

The truth is though; truth HISTORY repeats its self all the time.

I think it is more accurate to say that the angel was referring to these later times because the book of Daniel has been opened and studied by every Christian sect you can think of over the last 100 hrs alone.

So I am of the opinion that the true fulfilment is for today.

But I dont think it was souly referring to Hal Lindsey though thunder.

Is that what you believe thunder.

BULWARK

Hello Bulwark,
I believe that our knowledge is really increasing much faster now, than it ever has. Even with these computers, our knowledge is doubling every two years, and no other generation before this one can make that claim. Look at our transportation, men can now travel anywhere in the world in just a few hours. What generation before could do this?? I mean, any generation before 1948?? Just 500 years ago, the entire world thought that the earth was flat.

That scripture has nothing to do with Hal Lindsey. Hal is just one of millions who are studying the prophets and learning about this generation that was promised to see the second coming. You can add my name to that list, but I don't have the schooling that a lot of these men have. I lean more on the Holy Spirit to open my understanding. I am not just believing everything these men say, but I am very interested in what they find. I would have to say, that Grant Jeffrey's beliefs fit much closer to mine, than Hal Lindsey's.

BULWARK · Apr 27, 2002

let me go for the home run hear. willis :idea:

So, if the burden is on MR IP to divide these beliefs into shore truth and speculative opinion and he did that to the best of his conscience, then he would not be a false teacher.

Or would he???

So, now the bases are covered , lets see if I can get a home run

That would leave a false teacher as someone that is teaching heresies and insisting that they are the truth.

I dont know enough about Hal Lindsey to judge that although I have heard that he doesnt speak in absolute truths concerning prophesy so if that were the case, I suppose we would have to conclude that Hal may not be a false teacher as such, if this is the case.

Or maybe he is a false teacher, one more go willis

The other problem then would be that, although MR IP may have been wise enough to see that he was only speculating on the possibilities of scripture, the rest of the Christian world has taken it as absolute truths and therefore are deceived because it was only ever meant to be speculation of possibilities.

It is like Darwin coming up with the theory of us coming from apes and then soon after renouncing his own theories but that didnt stop the whole world being ignorant enough to believing him.

Going for that home run now Willis: yum:

Was Charles Darwin a false teacher on the grounds that he to spoke theoretically and he even went the next step (which MR IP never made) and renounced his false theories and they were only ever theories in his mind but that didnt stop the whole uneducated world taking what he said as absolute final truth and know the world believes in evolution.

So, would that mean that Darwin is freed from any responsibility because the world was too ignorant to see that he was speaking theoretically???

Again, if Darwin is to blame and be called a false teacher, then, were would that leave MR IP then if the Christian world was ignorant enough to take his theories as absolutes until the whole of Christianity is deceived.

Who would have to take responsibility for this?

I recon the teacher is responsible as god said, The more you have, the more that is expected of you".

Who is responsible Willis?

if we dont hold someone responsible, how do we get ride of the heresies.

Without holding Darwin responsible for his mistakes, can we deal with the overspread of evolution and if we hold him responsible, will that cause the world to rethink the truth

I believe it would and has. Darwin renounced his theories several times, thats why we no longer think we come from apes but that is what they taught me at school.

We get rid of false teachings by holding the teacher responsible so we can renounce the beliefs and stop them continuing to spread.

This is were MR IP should stand up and save the church from his own madness and stop the assumptions of his truth flying around as absolute truths. But it appears as though MR IP is making to much money and has gained too much respect, so why would he renounce something even though the church now believes heresies as absolute truths.

That would make MR IP a huge false teacher wouldnt it?

If I taught a theory to a friend and I heard him teach it as an absolute truth, I would put a stop to it or I could spread theories as absolute truth simply by telling someone that is ignorant of things in general.

If MR IP allows this deception to go on when he knows that it is not absolutes, especially if a big amount of time has past, lets say, 30 yrs , wouldn`t that make him a false teacher of the first degree.??

(looking for a smilie with a bat

) as that ball leaves the park and we all run home :clap:

BULWARK · Apr 27, 2002

hi thunder ,
yea , I agree with you , things are moving extreamly fast these days and that pradiction from daniel is most definatly for today once you think about it.

I havn`t heard of grant jeffreys , is he a modern day preacher thunder. does he still teach??

Willis Deal · Apr 27, 2002

JC,

You certainly know how to keep a person on their toes. I'm not sure I can keep up with all the complexities that have been introduced into our little scenario. I think you are overlooking that Mr. IP has defeated himself by proving that those ideas which are based upon speculation are wrong when they fail to come to pass. What great heresy or false belief does the church need to be defended against? That Christ returned in 1988? Or is it a heresy to speculate WHEN Christ will return or in what manner?

GW · Apr 27, 2002

Originally posted by Willis Deal
I don't know how many different ways I can say 'It only matters what can be supported from the bible'. Either you agree or you don't, if you don't agree that the bible is the final authority then you can justify quoting Darby, or Hal Lindsey, or anyone else. If you agree that the bible is the final authority then dating any particular idea or belief system is irrelevant since the bible will either support or refute any particular belief.

Dating Hal Lindsey's ideas back to the 1800s doesn't PROVE them wrong. It does prove them SUSPICIOUS. And when we see the direct link to the Jesuit counter-reformation tactics and the visions of teenager Margaret Macdonald we should be even MORE suspicious.

The reality is that Dispensationalism is not even remotely biblical. Here are just a few Dispensational inventions that are not remotely in scripture:

* Pretrib Rapture

* 7 Years Tribulation

* Future 70th Week of Daniel (Gap theory)

* Mr. World Ruler Antichrist Dude

* An End of the "Chuch Age"

* Christ's Kingdom: REJECTED, POSTPONED!

* Israel/Church: Two People of God

...and on and on and on.

None of these ideas is in scripture anywhere. They are all inventions of men of the 1800s.

note: a single antichrist has support in early Church history but is not in scripture.

rollinTHUNDER · Apr 27, 2002

Originally posted by GW

Dating Hal Lindsey's ideas back to the 1800s doesn't PROVE them wrong. It does prove them SUSPICIOUS. And when we see the direct link to the Jesuit counter-reformation tactics and the visions of teenager Margaret Macdonald we should be even MORE suspicious.

The reality is that Dispensationalism is not even remotely biblical. Here are just a few Dispensational inventions that are not remotely in scripture:

* Pretrib Rapture

* 7 Years Tribulation

* Future 70th Week of Daniel (Gap theory)

* Mr. World Ruler Antichrist Dude

* An End of the "Chuch Age"

* Christ's Kingdom: REJECTED, POSTPONED!

* Israel/Church: Two People of God

...and on and on and on.

None of these ideas is in scripture anywhere. They are all inventions of men of the 1800s.

note: a single antichrist has support in early Church history but is not in scripture.

This is why you are on the wrong forum. You don't fit in here, sorry. See ya

BULWARK · Apr 27, 2002

thunder,
brother , go read rule # 2 real carfuly because you brake it all the time brother and it is not right that you do this to others. this is a public forum with rules , go read rule # 2 and see who is in the wrong all the time on this forum , and it is not the preterists , it is the futurists that are braking rule #2 repeditivly.

Willis,
The scenario didnt spread that much, to simplify it;

Was Darwin a false teacher because his teaching took of as absolute truth even though he renounced it and said that it was only theory??

If so, wouldnt that make MR IP a false teacher to if he didnt insure that it was speculation enough to stop deception in the church.

What great heresy or false belief does the church need to be defended against?
That Christ returned in 1988? Or is it a heresy to speculate WHEN Christ will return or in what manner?

The church would need to be defended against speculation that turns into fact, just like evolution did.

Just as evolution is heresy, so would be a speculated belief that had become fact.

The heresy is not the speculating of the date but rather the setting of the date.

I.e. Williams in 1887 and Russel in 1914. They even went on to predict wrong again and people still followed them and what do we have for it, the J/W movement.

The speculating is fine until that speculation becomes church doctrine taught every were (like evolution) but it just isnt true. That is a heresy to me.

To be more to the point;

These things have about as much biblical foundation as some of those earlier J/W beliefs, like Abraham, Isaac and Jacob rising from the dead in 1975, another J/w prophesy gone wrong. Although they thought they had scripture for it even though it was simple speculation.

What great heresy or false belief does the church need to be defended against?

I believe these beliefs were once speculation that became church doctrine and unquestionable truth because I have been reading and studying the bible without outside influence for 12 yrs now and these are the things that I just can not see in scripture unless I were to look through some one elses doctrinal glasses.

* Prêt rib Rapture

* 7 Years Tribulation

* Future 70th Week of Daniel (Gap theory)

* Mr. World Ruler Antichrist Dude

* An End of the "Church Age"

* Christ's Kingdom: REJECTED, POSTPONED!

* Israel/Church: Two People of God

...And on and on and on.

GW, I agree with you 100%.

I have looked, I have been shown but I just cannot believe what is not there.

I am no theologian but I do now the scriptures better than those around me even if I want to see these thing, I just cannot see them. I see what other sees but I cant agree at all.

I have wanted to understand why people believe such things from scripture so I have gone out to check these things out more than once and every time I do this, I walk away still not knowing how these doctrines can be so widely believed when there is such little bible for it.

This is only my opinion but it is based on a person that has genuinely tried to understand these doctrines from the bible but I cant, it just isnt there unless you start speculating huge things of small portions of scripture.

Still to this day, I can see nothing but a prediction of the messiah in Daniel ch 9 but everyone else sees an antichrist and it is just not there.

I dont mean to be presumptuous but I cant believe something that is so obviously not there, even if I want to, and I have wanted to, believe me, but I think I know the bible to well to get sucked in

hows that for presumption.

rollinTHUNDER · Apr 27, 2002

Originally posted by BULWARK
thunder,
brother , go read rule # 2 real carfuly because you brake it all the time brother and it is not right that you do this to others. this is a public forum with rules , go read rule # 2 and see who is in the wrong all the time on this forum , and it is not the preterists , it is the futurists that are braking rule #2 repeditivly.

Bulwark,
You have got to be kidding me, right?? Who is breaking the harmony here?? Before you can even appreciate that rule, you must first consider who this forum was designed for. You should first read Dr Loh's threads at the top of all the other threads, and then tell me who is interfereing with who. I am only defending the beliefs of the ones who this forum was designed for. If this is a Perterist Forum, then I will gladly admit that I am wrong, apologize and leave for good. You gotta be kiddin' me dude.

GW · Apr 27, 2002

In response to my assertion that Dispensationalism is unbiblical, rollinThunder said:

"This is why you are on the wrong forum. You don't fit in here, sorry. See ya"

It's time you understand something very clearly, bro. This board is NOT a Dispensationalist-Only board. Hal Lindsey is not the only valid endtimes view. In fact, the vast MAJORITY of Christians do reject and HAVE rejected both Dispensationalism and Hal Lindsey. Neither Catholics nor the Reformers nor American Revivalist Postmillennialsts can agree with hardly any of your endtimes beliefs.

So, please, stop telling those who disagree with you, Hal Lindsey, and Dispensationalism that they are not allowed in this forum. That is dead wrong. You are dead wrong on this. No moderator is going to vindicate your view that only Hal Lindsey's version of the endtimes is to be discussed here. If you think otherwise then it is you that is probably on the wrong forum. Rapture-Ready and HalLindseyOracle are the place for you.

GW

rollinTHUNDER · Apr 27, 2002

Originally posted by GW
In response to my assertion that Dispensationalism is unbiblical, rollinThunder said:

It's time you understand something very clearly, bro. This board is NOT a Dispensationalist-Only board. Hal Lindsey is not the only valid endtimes view. In fact, the vast MAJORITY of Christians do reject and HAVE rejected both Dispensationalism and Hal Lindsey. Neither Catholics nor the Reformers nor American Revivalist Postmillennialsts can agree with hardly any of your endtimes beliefs.

So, please, stop telling those who disagree with you, Hal Lindsey, and Dispensationalism that they are not allowed in this forum. That is dead wrong. You are dead wrong on this. No moderator is going to vindicate your view that only Hal Lindsey's version of the endtimes is to be discussed here. If you think otherwise then it is you that is probably on the wrong forum. Rapture-Ready and HalLindseyOracle are the place for you.

GW

This Forum is not about Hal Lindsey's views, but his views fit the views of this Forum, while your views spit in the face of everyone that chooses to believe that Christ is STILL to return. You still don't seem to understand that, but you can believe that some of us are on to your evil plan, and you can believe that I for one, am watching your every move. You can bank on that.

GW · Apr 27, 2002

Originally posted by rollinTHUNDER
You still don't seem to understand that, but you can believe that some of us are on to your evil plan, and you can believe that I for one, am watching your every move. [/B]

MODERATOR: please police our brother rollinThunder here. I believe he continues to break the rules of this forum and defy the moderators at every turn. How many times is he allowed to say things like this before he forfeits his membership?

Please advise.

Mandy · Apr 27, 2002

This thread is closed until further notice.

There is no reason for any discussion or debate to become personal. In the future everyone please refrain from personal insults.

This forum is for end times and prophecy discussions only.

Is Hal Lindsey accurate in his pradictions.

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