who is the rightful owners of Palistine (Isreal today)

Originally posted by Fish
This will definitely get me banned from here but,
yes some of the jewish "settlers" paid for the
houses they took, but the "sellers" had no...

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Hello Fish,

Welcome to the PETCA forum.

No one here gets banned for voicing a contrary opinion.

It is true that the Jews used terror to throw the British out of Palestine. Nonetheless, you also have to remember that the Arabs were murdering the Jews at the same time.

So its not as simple as bad Jews, good Arabs or, of course, good Jews, bad Arabs.

The main thing you should note is that the Arabs have always been unwilling to negotiate with the Jews, preferring to use terror and war to push the issue through.

The mandate of the PLO, until very recently, called for the extermination of ALL Jews from Palestine. Indeed, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and Hezbollah which are active in PLO territory still call for the utter destruction of Israel.

Cheers,

YM

>>who is the rightful owners of Palistine (Isreal today)

Jesus is the rightful owner as a decendant of David. He has clear title to the temple mount. David purchased that from Araunah, at the time it was being used as a threshing floor. But Abraham worshiped there, and it was used before David for the honor and glory of God.

David and his decendant (Jesus) was made King over that area. It is perpetual, his kingship never has an end. During the 1000 year reign of Christ, Jesus will be King over Jerusalem also, that will be the capital of the world. Every nation will have to send a representive each year to Jerusalem to worship and honor God. If they do not send a representive, then God will not send them rain.

Zech. 14:16-18
And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. [17] And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain. [18] If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the Lord strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

Originally posted by The Messenger
LOL!! the preterist dispostion for dyslexic interpretaion is always amusing

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Hey Messenger -you might want to try and get out of your anti-preterist phobia, you're showing your ignorance of views other than your own. There was no preteristic dylexia here. Talk to any A- or Post-mill and you find in kind.

Originally posted by The Messenger
actually this scripture is a reference to the LAND that was alloted to the tribe of Judah, hence the words "Judah as his portion in the holy land" and when he does come he will rule personally from Jerusalem.

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Well, you do the typical dispensational thing -see one word in the text, and build a doctrine from it. Here are the verses:

Zech 2:10-12 (NKJV) 12"Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion! For behold, I am coming and I will dwell in your midst," says the LORD [the Incarnation cf 9:9]. 11"Many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and they shall become My people [the Church 1Pt 2:7-10]. And I will dwell [Jn 1:14 "tabenacle"] in your midst [reflects Messiah's prophetic name, Immanuel Isa 7:14]. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me to you. 12And the LORD will take possession of Judah [Jewish believers, the remnant] as His inheritance in the Holy Land [salvation started here, but went far beyond Jn 10:16; Eph 2:11-16], and will again choose Jerusalem [Christ did this in laying down His life. The commonwealth of Israel is made up of ALL believers -Gal 6:16, we are the Heavenly city the New Jerusalem the City of God -Gal 4:26; Heb 12:22].
[brackets mine]

Originally posted by The Messenger
i do not know about you personally, but i know many people like to think Christ will rule "through" church, but the Catholics tried that already with not real promising results...

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I can't speak for Catholics, however Christ indeed reigns through His Body in the earth -the Church, and we reign with Him -as you know the Word says -and that settles it.

davo

aahh, davo and JC,

What does body count have to do with anything? Perhaps it can show who is losing a particular conflict but it certainly is no indication of who is right or wrong. Was egypt 'right' because more egyptians died than jews when Moses lead them out of bondage? Perhaps we can look at some other OT wars and battles and see who had the most number of dead. A quick glance will tell you that in the OT times when God was on Israel's side the losing side always had a higher body count. Now before anyone thinks that I'm stating that God is supporting Israel today, I did NOT say that or comment on it one way or another, I used this demonstration to PROVE that body count is irrelevant in determining who is right or wrong. I could easily have used WWII and asked who had the most civilian casualities, Japan or USA?

Also note that I did not demonize the palestinians by painting them as all terrorists, nor even mostly terrorists, nor even terrorists at all. I did say that terrorists are EVIL, much more evil than the Israeli government.

G'day Willis, I'm not talking "body counts" nor OT battles and wars, they aren't the issue here.

What I'm on about is "JUSTICE" -and with Israel's history you'd think they would know better.

As I see it in the Scripture:

Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

Jer 22:3 'Thus says the LORD, "Do justice and righteousness, and deliver the one who has been robbed from the power of his oppressor. Also do not mistreat or do violence to the stranger, the orphan, or the widow; and do not shed innocent blood in this place.

Of course this also applies to us all -the point I'm making is how soon do they [Israel] forget the evils of oppression eg, WW2.

davo

My apologies davo, it was a knee jerk reaction from having others twist my words around my throat too many times I've edited my post to remove any reference to preterists.

Originally posted by Willis Deal
My apologies davo, it was a knee jerk reaction from having others twist my words around my throat too many times I've edited my post to remove any reference to preterists.

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doh! good-one Willis, now I have to go back and change mine

davo

What's the Extent of Israel's Boundaries During the Tribulation? or What Really Belongs to Israel?

This kinda helped me.
Julie

I found this site on the web. It looks to have a lot information that may help in our understanding...

Israelis and Palestinians Battle for the Holy Land

The land belongs to Israel!

Maybe these verse will help...

Romans 11:25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."

28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. 32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

It is hard for us to understand...But there is a plan.

Your Friend in Christ
LOVE

Now that's a good verse: "for God's gifts [adoption as sons, God's glory, the covenants, the Law, the priesthood, the promises -Rom 9:4] and his call [to obedience] are irrevocable.
[brackets mine]

It's not too hard to understand -Rom 9:6 and following goes on to show that "real" Israel is that of the way of faith. Obediance then works compassion and mercy.

davo

>>I just wish he would return and rule it.
>>then there will be peace.

WHAT? Jesus did not take His authority with Him, He left it here with us. We have all the same authority He had when He was here. All we have to do is Honor and Glorify Him, after all, it is His authority.

It is our job to use that power and authority to bring as many people to God as we can. Heal the sick, raise the dead, cast out demons and so forth. In the Name of Jesus, we have the Victory.

The day will come, when the last person has made their decision for Jesus, and then God will remove His restraining power and those who are the enemys of God will be allowed to destroy themselves.

Do you know what that restraining power is? The Holy Spirit of God in us the Church. The power of God in those who live Holy, Consecrated, Sanctifed lives before God. So for now, the Kingdom of God is in us. It is through us that the Kingdoms of this world, will become the Kingdoms of God. Thanks, JohnR7

Rev. 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!"

Originally posted by Julie
What's the Extent of Israel's Boundaries During the Tribulation? or What Really Belongs to Israel?

This kinda helped me.
Julie

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Thanks for the link, Julie!

JC,

A lot of people get hung up on the OT slaughters. It is certainly a sticky point but we need to take several issues into consideration.

1. God used Israel to fulfill his judgment on wickedness of the vanquished people. We have lots of examples where God gave people every opportunity to repent of their sins before He finally gave up and destroyed them. There is no reason to believe the people of Canaan weren't wicked nor that God didn't give them an opportunity to repent before they were destroyed.

2. God ordered COMPLETE destruction to prevent the wickedness of the destroyed people from infecting the Jews. In several instances we see where the Jews failed to do this and did become infected by wickedness and suffered judgment for their own sins. Much like a cancer in which every cell must be destroyed in order to prevent the cancer from spreading so too must all the wicked be destroyed to stop the spread of wickedness. As painful or cruel as this sounds it also extends to women and children. Given a choice and provided you had an opportunity would you choose to kill Adolph Hitler before WWII and save millions of lives with the sacrifice of one life? Go back one generation and ask the same question. Would you kill Hitler's mother to prevent the same loss of life? As difficult as this decision would be to make, it is a decision which faced God. We just have to trust that God knew the consequences of His decision and made the best choice.

One other note along that line. I find it amusing that those who cricitize God for destroying the wicked people in the days of Israel's migration also criticize God for allowing Evil in the present day.

I do not believe God is supporting Israel today. Israel does not officially recognize the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and until they do God will not endorse the nation. He may preserve them until such a time as they repent and recognize Him. Of course God does not consult me on such matters and He is sovereign and can do as he pleases so this is just my opinion.

Interesting points JC. But keep in mind that there is a huge difference between OT times and NT times. God chose to work with people in a paticular way in the OT, choosing a single race descended a righteous man and woman. It is clear that He told that nation to destroy such and such a people, and that he used that nation's enemies to inflict punishment upon that nation. However, the NT is a different way of dealing with people. He doesn't tell Christians to destroy wicked nations, quite the opposite, we are to love our enemies, and do good to those who do evil to us. The entire structure has changed so that a modern day 'messiah' cannot truthfully point to the OT slaughters to justify modern day slaughters by Christians of the wicked.

It is interesting how your logic has combined man being made in God's image and man is wicked therefore God must be wicked. If that were all there was to the equation then you would be correct. However, this is not the picture that the bible gives us. Evil exists because of Lucifer and Sin. Before sin entered the garden of eden God's creation was 'good'. There is absolutely no evidence that death existed before the fall. God communed with man on an individual basis and visited man regularly. Jumping ahead to the NT we see that Christians are to love their enemies and sin is further clarified as not being simply an act of wickedness but also failing to do good when you know to do good is also sin. What is 'doing good'? How about feed the hungry, cloth the naked, visit the sick, etc. That certainly doesn't sound like the work that a cruel and merciless God would ask his followers to perfom. If God enjoyed the misery and suffering wouldn't He command his followers to inflict MORE misery and suffering, strip the clothes from those who aren't naked, starve the fed, and ignore the sick?

Another interesting point you bring up is what God told Abraham and whether the same thing could happen today. The obvious difference is that we have a much more thorough understanding of God from the bible than was available to Abraham. At the risk of adding to scripture perhaps my brothers would permit me a bit of fantasy here to show one way that this COULD have happened (imaginary only and absolutely no basis in scripture). Imagine for a moment that we have a scenario such as Job, whereby Lucifer stands before God bragging about how much his followers love and trust him, even to the point of sacrificing their own children. Lucifer then points at Abraham and makes his challenge, that the man God has chosen doesn't love God as much as the wicked love Lucifer. Could God have used Abraham to make a point?

In any event, much more of the nature of God has been revealed to modern man than was available to Abraham. And I believe we can say with confidence that anytime we have a spirit which asks us to do things which are CONTRARY to the word of God that the spirit isn't from God. We are fortunate to live in the age of Grace, where God's patience and love are demonstrated toward man. He has withheld justice and bestowed mercy. Woe unto those men who face a just God who bestows justice after mercy has been exhausted.

To Yauming and Coastie and others,
I am sorry if I came across badly, but I feel that the
whole mess in the middle east cannot be dismissed as
Israel as fully right and all others against God and evil{etc.}
That is the only reason I spoke out. I had a couple of
personal messages about expulsion, but I will not temper
my posts with this threat in mind. Another message said
that if I was to be banned, I just had to rejoin under a
different name. It was a common occurence. I don't
play that way.
I just wish all to keep balance on the opinions of
the Middle East problem, and that there are millions in
that area that have been living in poverty and camps
for decades, and that is why they are angry. If you just
tell them that it is God's will, it just makes them
angrier. To dismiss this problem in any other fashion
is foolish, as supposing that they were recompensed
for there lose of homes in the past. They may have sold
their homes at gunpoint for a few months food, and a nice
refugee camp to live in, butI do not think it is quite
good enough. In peace time the Palestinians were third
class "citizens", faring slightly better than a slave class
as servants, gardners, and waiters to bring a few
groceries back to their families at the "camp",
regularly frisked, herded, and jailed.
When the teenagers revolted in the 80's, they used
rocks against the soldiers, and the press described that
as a clash, or battle. If the Palestinians had weapons,
it was usually described as an ambush or massacre.
But all here should at least think about why the
Palestinians might be angry, before ruling them out
as "evil". Then one may see why there is little hope
for a resolution to this problem.
I have not bothered looking up the attack on the
U.S.S. Liberty on the web, as I am sure the Pro-Israel
position is quite well represented. I am sure the
U.S. sailors involved would love to elaborate.
I am not really trying to stir up trouble, as the
trouble in the middle east is already there, but Christians
calling for war and bloodletting is something that
the members on this forum should examine.
I read the posts here to listen, but several pro-war
anti-Arab-Muslim-whatever posts made me wonder where the
heart of the members here were. That is the only reason
I made any posts here.
Many people here seem to be hung up on this "preterist"
doctrine. Do not let any interpretation of a prophecy
divide you all up. Interpretation is just that, an
interpretaion. I know independant Baptists that think
Southeren Baptists are wrong and in danger of condemnation
for minor interpretaional differences. I studied Greek in college seeking the "truth". Greek is a dynamic and
changing language, and interpretation is relative to
many factors. Take Jesus's discussion with Nicodemus
in John 3. Jesus most likely was saying you must be born
from above, and Nicodemus thought he was saying"be born
again". The greek word is transliterated as "anothen"
and in Greek means from above, but in that area at that
time may have meant "again". Thus Nicodemus's question
about the statement. Yet in the 1980's there was a great
"born again" movement, and anyone not "born again" was not
a "true" christian.
So any variance on doctrine should not be shunned,
as well as interpretation of who is right or wrong
in the middle east should be labeled as "Anti-Semetic"
or "Pro Palestinian" or "Pro-Terrorist", but discussed at
length.
As common sense teaches us, there are 2 sides to
any story.
Fish