Who is the real spouse of Mary?

They were never married, rather they remained permanently betrothed.

John.

Mary is the spouse of the Holy Spirit.
Joseph was the foster-father of Jesus.

Cary.Melvin said:

I Joseph really the husband of Mary or is the Holy Spirit? Was Joseph only named as husband to Mary to fufill a role as protectorate and father figure for Jesus? Because they never consumated their marraige, Were they not sacramentaly married?

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Good Day Cary

I say Joseph:

Mat 1:24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:

Do you know of another meaning in the NT for the greek word used here as WIFE?

The Him AND His in this verse refers to whom? A third person not mentioned what is the constuction of the passage that would lead you to that conclusion?


Peace to u,

BBAS

panterapat said:

Mary is the spouse of the Holy Spirit.
Joseph was the foster-father of Jesus.

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Good Day, Panterapat

Source please, this seems be at odds with history and biblical exergersis.

Peace to u,

BBAS

To BBAS:

The Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary, and she became pregnant with Jesus.



Peace be with you,
~VOW

VOW said:

To BBAS:

The Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary, and she became pregnant with Jesus.



Peace be with you,
~VOW

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Good Day, Vow

How are you?

I am not questioning this truth or the nessity for it. How does this prohibit or undermind the mariage of Mary and Joseph?


Peace to u,

BBAS

BBAS 64 said:

Good Day, Panterapat

Source please, this seems be at odds with history and biblical exergersis.

Peace to u,

BBAS

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Dear BBAS

You are correct when you say "seems", but a closer look at the entire biblical record vindicates the Catholic position.
You are familiar with the command, "Thou shalt not commit adultery", correct?
What constitutes adultery? Certainly mothering children buy two different fathers, while both fathers are still alive, would qualify. Now Jesus' father is God the Father, who is alive forever, and Joseph was alive when he and Mary were "married". The questions we must answer are, 1)Did Mary have other children?, 2)Did she commit adultery?, 3) Is Jesus' birth a legitimate one?
The answer to the first two would be no in order for the third answer to be yes. If we accept someones contention that Mary mothered other children besides Jesus, that would put the legitimacy of Christ's birth in question, as His mother had children with another man that is not Christ's Father, while Christ's father still lives. If we say that Christ's birth is legitimate, then Joseph commited adultery, if he fathered children with her, as the Father of her first child still lives.
All of the problems of legitimacy vs adultery are solved by Mary's perpetual virginity. She is the spouse of the Holy Spirit, and she did not mother any other children besides Jesus. The fact that a human could be the spouse of God should not be surprising to protestants. Is not the church referred to as "The Bride of Christ", and won't we be at "The Marriage supper of the Lamb" if we are part of the body of Christ? Mary was just the first one to experience this type of communion with God, and she is rightly crowned "Queen of Heaven" see Rev12:1.

prodromos said:

They were never married, rather they remained permanently betrothed.

John.

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Hi John,

That is a very interesting way of putting it . . I assume this is from the Eastern Orthodox fathers . . do you have a resource to point me to (on line if possible) . . I would love to read more on this way of looking at their relationship.

I believe Mary is ever virgin. I just don't remember hearing their relationship put in those terms before . .

Peace in Him!

To BBAS

How does this prohibit or undermind the mariage of Mary and Joseph?

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Is Jesus illegitimate? Was He conceived "in sin"?

Legally, in the US, all children born of a marriage are the heirs of the husband. This is based upon English law. Of course, with DNA testing these days, the true father of any child can be determined. But if you follow the law, then Jesus is the Son of Joseph.

But we KNOW Jesus is the Son of God.

Joseph only thought Mary had "cheated" on him, until he received the message from the angel telling him to take Mary as his wife. That was for appearances only. She was still the spouse of the Holy Spirit, even after the birth of Jesus. Why? Well, the Holy Spirit certainly cannot die, and there is absolutely NO mention of a divorce in Scripture.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

My understanding of the thought behind Mary as spouse of the Holy Spirit is that it is a convenant type relationship. Similiar to the covenant relationship of Christ and His Bride the Church, similiar to OT convenant language of the covenant described of God to Jerusalem in Ezekiel 16 (where Jerusalem is the "faithless" spouse). Marriage is a covenant.

Though there is some edge or hint of marital and sexual overture in the incarnation (overshadowing and the power of God), I think we need to look at it in terms of the covenant bond and not deem it as equating exactly to the sexual relationship of a marriage.

I would say that Joseph and Mary were actually married, not just betrothed (as that was the state before Joseph had the dream to go ahead and take her into his home) ... but obviously the marriage was for the sake of raising Jesus. I often hear of Catholics speak of looking at things in a "and/both" way, instead of an "either/or" way. I think this is another and/both case. Mary was married to Joseph, but asl spouse of the Holy Spirit. It is very much like the Church (the Body of Christ) is also the Bride of Christ. We're a bride with a bridegroom and there will be a wedding feast for us in heaven.

Marcia

A child is only illegitimate if it is born out of wedlock right?
Correct me if I am wrong, but this does not nessecarily mean the natural mother and father be the ones who are wed as I understand it.
If this is the case, it does not support either side of this discussion pertaining to who Mary's true husband is.

Terminology in canon law regarding a couple who has not consumated their marriage:
(not to imply that Mary and Joseph were obliged to follow canon law which of course did not exist yet)

Can. 1061 §1 A valid marriage between baptized persons is said to be merely ratified, if it is not consummated; ratified and consummated, if the spouses have in a human manner engaged together in a conjugal act in itself apt for the generation of offspring. To this act marriage is by its nature ordered and by it the spouses become one flesh.

geocajun said:

A child is only illegitimate if it is born out of wedlock right?
Correct me if I am wrong, but this does not nessecarily mean the natural mother and father be the ones who are wed as I understand it.
If this is the case, it does not support either side of this discussion pertaining to who Mary's true husband is.

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No. A child is illegitimate if its true father and mother are not married to each other. For example, King Charles II was married to Queen Catherine of Braganza, but he had a son with another woman. This son was acknowledged as the King's son, and made Duke of Monmouth, but he was still illegitimate, and could not inherit the crown.

Again, in scripture, King David had to be married to Bathsheba for his sons by her to be legitimate. Hence the plot to kill her existing husband.

BBAS 64 said:

Mat 1:24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:

Do you know of another meaning in the NT for the greek word used here as WIFE?

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Interesting question.

The word used in Matthew 1:24 for WIFE is

Gune (Strongs 1135)

The meaning given in Strongs is:

1. a woman of any age, whether a virgin, or married, or a widow
2. a wife
2b a betrothed woman

So the use of the word wife in scripture is not at all conclusive. The greek word used in the original does not specify a marital relationship in the way wife does in English.


King James Word Usage - Total: 221
woman 129, wife 92

Axion said:

No. A child is illegitimate if its true father and mother are not married to each other. For example, King Charles II was married to Queen Catherine of Braganza, but he had a son with another woman. This son was acknowledged as the King's son, and made Duke of Monmouth, but he was still illegitimate, and could not inherit the crown.

Again, in scripture, King David had to be married to Bathsheba for his sons by her to be legitimate. Hence the plot to kill her existing husband.

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It seems that this is a purely legal term though right? thus, when Joseph named Jesus, under Jewish law - at that time - Jesus became Josephs legal son, entitled to all the benefits of being his first born son - thus completely legitimate?

I found this from Fr. John A. Hardon

http://www.catholic.net/rcc/Periodicals/Faith/Jul-Aug99/Questions.html

Q. Was Mary married to Joseph according to the Jewish Law before the Annunciation?