The Fulfillment of Revelation Six- Introduction

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Just The Facts

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Hi Zadok

I think you need to read again.

17: And the seventy returned again with joy,

Above is the Time frame...................it isbetween when the 70 leave and when the 70 return

saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
18: And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.


So here we are told that

1. These Disciples are battleing Satan and his Demons............

2. That as a rusult of this battle with the demons Satan has been cast out of Heaven down to Earth.

Now look at the SAME events in Rev 12:

7: And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8: And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9: And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10: And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11: And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
 
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Just The Facts said:
Hi Vin

Quote
Satan will be cast from heaven to the earth/5th trumpet...is a time of fleeing and the 6th trumpet is the great tribulation time.
End Quote

Once again Vin this would be your doctrine.........................Revelation is not the Revelation of vinsight4u it is the revelation of Jesus.

Jesus is very clear when Satan fell from Heaven.

Luke 10:18: And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.19: Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

Now Back to Rev

12:9: And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.10: And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.11: And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb,

As anyone can plainly see Satan fell from heaven back in 20 something AD. JESUS TELLS US HE DID. So you have a Choice BELIEVE the plain words of Jesus your claimed saviour or put Jesus words to no avail and follow the Doctrines of Men or of Yourself in this case.

I agree with what your saying to a certain degree. However, in the book of Revelation account of Satan and his angels being cast out, it seems to happen after Christ (the male child) is taken up to heaven. "And there was war in heaven", and Satan was cast down to earth, seemingly after Christ's assention, at least it appears that way in the book of Revelation. Comparing the Revelation account to Luke 10:18 has always left me confused.

DLM
 
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Zadok7000

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Just The Facts said:
Hi Zadok

I think you need to read again.

17: And the seventy returned again with joy,

Above is the Time frame...................it isbetween when the 70 leave and when the 70 return

saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
18: And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.


So here we are told that

1. These Disciples are battleing Satan and his Demons............

2. That as a rusult of this battle with the demons Satan has been cast out of Heaven down to Earth.

Now look at the SAME events in Rev 12:

7: And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8: And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9: And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10: And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11: And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.


:doh:

So JESUS is the only one who saw satan fall??? And how long is the "short time" of the verse you forgot to include - Rev. 12:12? Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

2,000 years is NOT a "short time". Satan and his angels falling from heaven is a future event. See my suporting scriptures in previous posts. His arrival as false christ is satan himself BODILY. What JESUS plainly said in Luke 10 was that the spirits are subject unto you. You may want to re-read 1Cor. 15 to know the difference between a spirit and a spiritual body.
 
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Zadok7000

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Ebed-Yahweh said:
Why not?
Why not?
Not really.

Because "azazel" as a proper name makes no sense in Lev. 16. We must rightly divide the WORD - subject and object. "Scapegoat" is the correct translation is that chapter.

Show me where Satan/Helel/Samael is clearly referred to as Abaddon (the destroyer). Also all fallen angels could be considered satans (adversaries/accusers). It is reasonable therefore that there are times when "Satan" (as translated in the text) might be referring to more than one angel.

You mean other than the only place it is mentioned in the Bible (Rev. 9:11)? I pointed out previously where he is called Abaddon "the destroyer". And I beg to differ but it is NOT reasonable to assign other fallen angels to the name of satan because of Rev. 12:9 and 20:2. In 12:9 it specifically seperates the name of satan from those of his angels.

Okay, well, in order for this to be "the same event from a different point of view", the Abyss has to be located in space/the second heaven (the sky is the first heaven and paradidse, where God's throne is, is the third heaven.

KJV 2 Corinthians 12:2-4
12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.)

No, it doesn't even have to be a physical pit. It is imagery used to evoke our memory of Joel 2. In other words: Satan and his angels have just been cast from heaven and have arrived on earth; now is the time for Joel 2 to be fulfilled. The imagery of an abyss in the earth is used again and again (Rev. 11:7, 13:11, 17:8, 20:1, and 20:3 for example) to show that satan is the one and only locust king.

No. The Two Witnesses are either the Church of Israel and the Gentile Church or Judah and Ephraim. Olive trees are nations (especially holy, anointed nations) and candlesticks/ are churches (see KJV Revelation 1:20 and 11:4).

Please show me a place where "olive trees" refers to nations. The Hebrew in Zech. 4:14 where it says "two annointed ones" should be "two sons of oil". These are individuals, not groups of people. And no, I don't believe they are Moses and Elijah...

The eagle wings might possibly be those plucked from the first beast of Daniel ch. 7.

KJV Daniel 7:3-4
7:3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.
7:4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.

Very possible.


Yes, I agree that Satan plays many roles. But he also has many servants.

No offence, but that is immaterial. Satan's ego alone would not allow someone else to be the locust king. It is his role and his alone.

The 70 year period of Daniel was almost completely fulfilled by Yahshua. except for a remaining 3 1/2 years/1260 days/42 months.

KJV Daniel 9:27 And he [Yahshua] shall confirm the covenant with many for one week [7 years (the number 7 symbolizes perfection or completeness]: and in the midst of the week [3 1/2 years. The duratation of Yahshua's ministry was about 3 years or perhaps a little more.] he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease [the animal sacrifices are no longer necessary because of Yahshua's sacrifice], and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate [The 2nd Temple (actually the 3rd Temple as the first century Jewish historian Josephus records that Herod tore down and completely rebuilt it) was destroyed during the Roman conquest of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.], even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The Tribulation is not limiited to a period of 7 years. The Wrath of Yahweh God takes place in a period of 3 1/2 years (or perhaps (1260 days = 1260 prophetic years?), but that does not begin until the Sixth Seal is opened,

I have heard it taught the way you just explained it, but I believe it to be false. MESSIAH was "cut off" ("karath" = to cut off, cut down or cut asunder; by implication, to destroy or consume; specifically, to covenant)
at the end of the 69th week. HIS ministry obviously ended before the 70th week could even get started.
Dan. 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The "he" that confirms the covenant ("baryith" = league, confederacy) is "the prince that shall come". IE the vile person, satan. I believe he outlaws the taking of Christian communion since he wants us to believe he is CHRIST returned.
Dan. 11:21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.
22 And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.
23 And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.

So again, we have reference to the league satan will make with the world's leaders - see the 1st beast of Rev. 13 - the healing of the deadly wound.
And did you notice the reference to Gen. 7:24, 8:3, Matt. 24:39, Luke 17:27, and Rev. 12:15-16 in verse 22??? The flood that lasts 5 months...


Why not? What are your exact reasons for believing the Tunguska Event could not be the Dragonfall?

Because as I explained earlier, the 1260, 1290, and 1335 day periods (as well as the 42 month and 3.5 year periods) are themselves subdivisions of the 70th week (7 years). Therefore, they cannot be LONGER than 7 years. The longest satan could POSSIBLY have before YASHUA returns is 7 years. So since HE did not return by 1915, it was not satan that fell in Tunguska.
 
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Just The Facts

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Hi

2,000 years is a short time to God. Look at Rev 22:

12: And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Revelation written in 96AD and here Jesus says he will return for judgement day "quickly"

Peter tells us to god a day is as a Thousand years so 2,000 years could be 2 days to God.

8: But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9: The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness;

Peter even warns us not to apply human concepts to the terms like quickly. Just because you count 2,000 years as slack GOD DOES NOT. So don't be Ignorant for peter warns us against such use of terms.

No sorry Zadok you are mistaken about a number of things.

Not the least of which is that The AC IS NOT THE DEVIL...........................

Please allow me to show you the Truth of Scripture.

Is this the AC

8: The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition:
 
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Just The Facts

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Hi David

The two battles take place at the same time.

The enemies of Humanity have been going before God and accusing mankind of evil up to when Jesus seals and send out the seventy.

They have been saying to God that he should destroy Mankind as evil. Like he did to the Nephilim.

But When Jesus seals the 70 and they go out showing that mankind is not evil and that it is Satan and his angels that are responsible for the mess on Earth.

While the 70 prove mankind’s worth in the council Michael and the Angels of Heaven grab hold of Lucifer and cast him to earth. he can no longer go before the throne of God and accuse mankind because Jesus has sealed them.

Once on Earth the Beast goes after them first in Jerusalem by the Jews persecution then when that fails he send Rome to destroy Jerusalem in a flood. See Daniel 9; and Rev 12.

Every one of the 70 ends up murdered at the Beheast of Satan and his Earthly Kingdoms.

Stephen the First perhaps John as the last.
 
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Ebed-Yahweh

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Zadok7000 said:
Because "azazel" as a proper name makes no sense in Lev. 16. We must rightly divide the WORD - subject and object. "Scapegoat" is the correct translation is that chapter.

I'm sorry, you're wrong.


Zadok7000 said:
You mean other than the only place it is mentioned in the Bible (Rev. 9:11)? I pointed out previously where he is called Abaddon "the destroyer". And I beg to differ but it is NOT reasonable to assign other fallen angels to the name of satan because of Rev. 12:9 and 20:2. In 12:9 it specifically seperates the name of satan from those of his angels.

Where does the Bible ever tell us that Satan is the angel of the Bottomless Pit/Abyss? Where does the Bible ever say that Satan is Abaddon/the Destroyer? Anyway, Satan is a title, not a personal name. "Satan" capitalized refers to one individual while "satans" can refer to all fallen angels. Similar to how "El/Elohim" is the Hebrew title of our Father Yahweh God, but pagan gods are also known as "el/elohim".


Zadok7000 said:
No, it doesn't even have to be a physical pit. It is imagery used to evoke our memory of Joel 2. In other words: Satan and his angels have just been cast from heaven and have arrived on earth; now is the time for Joel 2 to be fulfilled. The imagery of an abyss in the earth is used again and again (Rev. 11:7, 13:11, 17:8, 20:1, and 20:3 for example) to show that satan is the one and only locust king.

You provide no proof. There is no reason to assume that "the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit" (Revelation 11:7) is the same as the "beast coming up out of the earth" (Rev. 13:11).


Zadok7000 said:
Please show me a place where "olive trees" refers to nations. The Hebrew in Zech. 4:14 where it says "two annointed ones" should be "two sons of oil". These are individuals, not groups of people. And no, I don't believe they are Moses and Elijah.

KJV Romans 11:17-24
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

KJV Isaiah 17:4-6
4 And in that day it shall come to pass, that the glory of Jacob shall be made thin, and the fatness of his flesh shall wax lean.
5 And it shall be as when the harvestman gathereth the corn, and reapeth the ears with his arm; and it shall be as he that gathereth ears in the valley of Rephaim.
6 Yet gleaning grapes shall be left in it, as the shaking of an olive tree, two or three berries in the top of the uppermost bough, four or five in the outmost fruitful branches thereof, saith the LORD [Yahweh] God of Israel.

kjv Jeremiah 11:12-17
12 Then shall the cities of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem go, and cry unto the gods unto whom they offer incense: but they shall not save them at all in the time of their trouble.
13 For according to the number of thy cities were thy gods, O Judah; and according to the number of the streets of Jerusalem have ye set up altars to that shameful thing, even altars to burn incense unto Baal.
14 Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up a cry or prayer for them: for I will not hear them in the time that they cry unto me for their trouble.
15 What hath my beloved to do in mine house, seeing she hath wrought lewdness with many, and the holy flesh is passed from thee? when thou doest evil, then thou rejoicest.
16 The LORD [Yahweh] called thy name, A green olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit: with the noise of a great tumult he hath kindled fire upon it, and the branches of it are broken.
17 For the LORD [Yahweh] of hosts, that planted thee, hath pronounced evil against thee, for the evil of the house of Israel and of the house of Judah, which they have done against themselves to provoke me to anger in offering incense unto Baal.

KJV Hosea 14:5-6
5 I will be as the dew unto Israel: he shall grow as the lily, and cast forth his roots as Lebanon.
6 His branches shall spread, and his beauty shall be as the olive tree, and his smell as Lebanon.


Zadok7000 said:
Very possible.
We'll have to do more research on the two wings of the eagle.


Zadok7000 said:
No offence, but that is immaterial. Satan's ego alone would not allow someone else to be the locust king. It is his role and his alone.

How do you know that Satan wants to be the locust king? I thought he wanted to be God.


Zadok7000 said:
I have heard it taught the way you just explained it, but I believe it to be false. MESSIAH was "cut off" ("karath" = to cut off, cut down or cut asunder; by implication, to destroy or consume; specifically, to covenant)
at the end of the 69th week. HIS ministry obviously ended before the 70th week could even get started.
Dan. 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The "he" that confirms the covenant ("baryith" = league, confederacy) is "the prince that shall come". IE the vile person, satan. I believe he outlaws the taking of Christian communion since he wants us to believe he is CHRIST returned.
Dan. 11:21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.
22 And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.
23 And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.

So again, we have reference to the league satan will make with the world's leaders - see the 1st beast of Rev. 13 - the healing of the deadly wound.
And did you notice the reference to Gen. 7:24, 8:3, Matt. 24:39, Luke 17:27, and Rev. 12:15-16 in verse 22??? The flood that lasts 5 months...

The "league" made in Daniel 11:23 is not the same as the "covenant" made in Daniel 9:27. The Hebrew word used in Dan. 11:23 is "chabar", while the word used in verse 9:27 is berit.

(From the Hebrew dictionary of the Strong's Concordance.)

1285 (spelled bet-resh-yod-tav) berit, n.f. covenant, treaty, compact, agreement, an association between two parties with various responsibilities, benefits, and penalties; "to cut a covenant" is "make a covenant," a figure of the act of ceremonially cutting an animal in two parts, with an implication of the serious consequences of not fulfilling the covenant:- covenant [264 (number of times translated as such in the KJV)], league [15], in league [2], confederacy [1], confederate (+1167) [1], confederate [1]
2266 (spelled chet-bet-resh) chabar, v. to join, unite, be attached, to be touching; to cast spells, to enchant; to be joined; to fasten, join; to be fastened, be closely compacted; to make an alliance, become allies; to make fine speeches:-joined[6], coupled [5], couple together [3], coupled together [2], couple [2], joined together [2], charmer (+2267) [1], charming (+2267) [1], compact [1], fellowship [1], heap up [1], join together [1], joined to [1], join [1], league [1]

The "he" in Daniel 9:27 is either "Messiah" or "or the prince that shall come". I believe "he" is Yahshua HaMashiach, while you believe "he" is the Anti-Christ. Perhaps you can take comfort in the fact that people like Hal Lindsey and Tim LaHaye believe the same as you do.
 
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Ebed-Yahweh

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Back in April of 2002 (when I received quite a few personally earth-shattering revelations), I found something interesting which led me to believe Yahshua might return in the year 2022.

Daniel 12:8-13
8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.


KJV Matthew 25:1-46
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

KJV Mark 13:1-23
14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:
16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.
17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.
19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:
22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

KJV Luke 21:20-22
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Many prophetical interpretations of Biblical scholars equate the Abomination of Desolation with the Image of the Beast.

Revelation 13:11-18
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

While this connection may be true, it is not the only possibility.

A newsletter (One of Chuck Missler’s Koinonia House messages) I was reading on Saturday, April 6, 2002 made reference to this passage:

KJV 2 Thessalonians 2:1-17
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away (apostasy) first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

For some reason it mention verse 4 in relation to Islam.

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Usually this verse is connected only with the Anti-Christ (which I still believe it is). But I started thinking about the implications of it also being a reference to Islam. What I found intriguing is that there is currently a mosque standing on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem where Solomon's Temple and the Second and Third Temples* once stood (*Post-Babylonian Exile and Herod‘s Temples. See Josephus Antiquities of the Jews Book 15 Chapter 11 to discover that Herod actually tore down the Second Temple and built an entirely new Third Temple.). This the Dome of the Rock, the Mosque of Omar. It is the oldest mosque in existence. Its construction was initiated in 687 A.D. (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dome_of_the_Rock) by Abd Al-Malik (Arabic for servant of the king), the ninth caliph.

"And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days." (Daniel 12:11-12)

"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." 1 Peter 3:8

The sacrifice was taken away in 70 A.D. when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and the Second Temple. 687 was when the Dome of the Rock began to be built, a mosque standing on the place where Yahweh's glory once dwelt, could perhaps be considered an abomination in His eyes. So then, if a day can be like a thousand years, why not a day as one year?

Also:

KJV Numbers 14:33-34
33 And your children shall wander in the wilderness forty years, and bear your whoredoms, until your carcases be wasted in the wilderness.
34 After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise.

KJV Ezekiel 4:4-7 [God talking to the prophet Ezekiel]
4 Lie thou also upon thy left side, and lay the iniquity of the house of Israel upon it: according to the number of the days that thou shalt lie upon it thou shalt bear their iniquity.
5 For I have laid upon thee the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days: so shalt thou bear the iniquity of the house of Israel.
6 And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year
7 Therefore thou shalt set thy face toward the siege of Jerusalem, and thine arm shall be uncovered, and thou shalt prophesy against it.


From Daniel 12:11 add 1290 to 687. This comes out to 1977. The year the Egyptians made their first peace overtures to the modern nation-state of Israel. Egyptian President Anwar Sadat even visited the Dome of the Rock during his peace mission to Jerusalem. Beforehand, and especially since her restoration in 1948, the "beautiful land" (called so in Daniel) has been in a constant state of warfare with her Arab/Islamic enemies (Mostly equipped with Russian arms by the way). 1977 might also be the year of the Anti-christ's host body’s birth, or birth of his mother (note that February 3, 1977, 2-3-77 is the birthdate of main character/Anti-christ-type Shinji's mother in a Japanese anime concerning the end of the world called Neon Genesis Evangelion. The number 2377 also appear on the side of a train in one of the first episodes), although he hasn't yet been revealed. (Just speculating here.)
Next add the number 1335 from Daniel 12:12 to 687. This gives us 2022. 2022 A.D., the year in which we may see HaMashiach will return, the time of Yahshua’s Second Coming.

"But the day and the hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels in heaven, but my father only." I know many have tried to predict the date of the Second Coming. Most now believe this verse indicates that no one will be able to. However, look at Jesus' words closely. Clearly, he says no one will know the 'day or the hour'.
 
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Therefore it is quite possible that the Abomination of Desolation could be in existence for quite a while, but that its identity would not be known until revealed by the Father to those who are in need of the information.

I had a dream not too long ago in relation to the Dome of the Rock.
First I looked down on the mosque from a bird's-eye view, then I went in for
a close-up. After that, I saw a room (in a store?) in which a group of Arab men were
standing around the body of a (dead?) old man. They seemed angry and
disturbed. Next, the old man was removed (without my witnessing it), and one of the Arab men
dropped a handful of nails onto the spot on the floor where he had
formerly laid. A glowing,.red stain begain to spread out from the point
on the floor where the nails had been dropped.

Now, I'm not certain that the Dome of the Rock is the Abomination of Desolation.
Nonetheless, its destruction could very well be the spark that ignites the powder-keg
which is the Middle East.

After coming to this conclusion, I looked up the number 22 and discovered some interesting things.

Genetics: 22 Chromosomes (22 pairs + 2 sex chromosomes, 46XX, 46XY)
DNA code - 20 Amino Acids + Amber Ochre + Umber stop codons
Language: Hebrew has 22 letters

Mathematics: 3+7+12=22 (3 is the divine #, 7 is perfection, and 12 symbolizes God's people - 12 tribes of Israel, 12 disciples, etc.)
22/7 = 3.142857143, a reasonably close approximation of Pi.

Biblical: 1 Kings and Revelation are the only two books divided into 22 chapters.


The following are all the verses which make reference to our prior knowledge, or lack thereof, of when Yahshua shall return.

KJV Matthew 24:36-39
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only
37 But as the days of Noe [Noah] were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark.
39 knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

KJV Matthew 24:42-44
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 refore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.


KJV Mark 13:31-33
31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.


KJV Luke 12:35-40
35 Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning;
36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.
37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.
39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.
40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.


KJV 1 Thessalonians 5:1-6
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night [unexpectedly].
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.


KJV 2 Peter 3:3-4
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

KJV 2 Peter 3:8-10
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


KJV Revelation 3:2-3
2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

KJV Revelation 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.


I'm not yet certain about the implications of 1 Thessalonians 5:4.


Concerning 2012 and the Mayan Calendar:

“But how are we to relate this to a time frame we can understand? How does this Long Count relate to our Gregorian calendar? This problem of correlating Mayan time with "western" time has occupied Mayan scholars since the beginning. The standard question to answer became: what does 0.0.0.0.0 (the Long Count "beginning" point) equal in the Gregorian calendar? When this question is answered, archeological inscriptions can be put into their proper historical context and the end date of the 13-baktun cycle can be calculated. After years of considering data from varied fields such as astronomy, ethnography, archeology and iconography, J. Eric S. Thompson determined that 0.0.0.0.0 correponded to the Julian date 584283, which equals August 11th, 3114 B.C. in our Gregorian calendar. This means that the end date of 13.0.0.0.0, some 5125 years later, is December 21st, 2012 A.D.”

(From http://www.levity.com/eschaton/Why2012.html)

December 21 is the 355th day of the year, while December 20th is the 355th day during leap years. If something is to happen Look at the date this way: 12-21-2012. It's even better the British way: 21-12-2012. Or 12-20-2012, 20-12-2012. Anyway, I don’t know exactly what is going to happen on these two days, but it will probably be something important.

Fun With Numbers:

Pi = 3.1415926
Phi= 6.1803399

22/7 = 3.142857143
22/3.55 = 6.197183099

22/3.1415926 = 7.002817615
22/6.1803399 = 3.559674768

355 - 22 = 333 and 355 + 22 = 377.
333 355 337


I don't know how much of this webpage is true - www.illuminati.ch/Wissen/Archiv/Text/X-Projects/montauk2.txt - , but I thought the following bit of information was kind of interesting:

"During these tests at Montauk from 1947 to 1987, they developed the technology that a transmitter could warp space and time just like gravity.Preston Nichols built this transmitter. They were able to find a time vortex that would tunnel them back and forth between 1983 and 1943. This vortex was about 5 miles indiameter and could teleport you as far as 100 light years away, to and from any time in the past or future. They experimented to see the earth a thousand years in the future but found that anything beyond the year 2021 was unrecognizable and found no tangible future beyond 2021. Preston explains also that if someone were teleported back into time say 3 minutes, they would eventually meet
themselves and explode."
(It's the 8th paragraph up from the bottom.)

"They experimented to see the earth a thousand years
in the future but found that anything beyond the year 2021 was
unrecognizable
and found no tangible future beyond 2021."
 
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Zadok7000

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Just The Facts said:
Hi

2,000 years is a short time to God. Look at Rev 22:

12: And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Revelation written in 96AD and here Jesus says he will return for judgement day "quickly"

Peter tells us to god a day is as a Thousand years so 2,000 years could be 2 days to God.

8: But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9: The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness;

Peter even warns us not to apply human concepts to the terms like quickly. Just because you count 2,000 years as slack GOD DOES NOT. So don't be Ignorant for peter warns us against such use of terms.

No sorry Zadok you are mistaken about a number of things.

Not the least of which is that The AC IS NOT THE DEVIL...........................

Please allow me to show you the Truth of Scripture.

Is this the AC

8: The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition:

Yup, you're right! And who's the only son of perdition? Satan! His time as the false christ was shortened by our LORD in Matt. 24:22 and Luke 13:20. The same shortened time refered to in Rev. 12:12. This is just common sense. Use your noodle.
And when HE says HE is coming "quickly" in Rev. 22, who is HE speaking to?
The generation of the Fig Tree, those upon whom the ends of the world are come.
 
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Hi Zadok


Well lest just stick with one point at a time.

So the Beast is the AC.

Is this the Beast/AC going to the Lake of Fire.

20: And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
 
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Cheap shot Ebed! I thought better of you. People like Hal Lindsey and Tim LaHaye are deceivers and profiteers. Most of what they say is garbage, however, they are correct in saying Daniel's 70th week is yet future. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I am "one of them". I am not saying that satan as the false christ has 7 years to reign as should be clear from my posts. I believe he has but 5 months. Just read Dan. 9:26-27 and follow the subject and object, there is no room to substitute personal pronouns.

So at the risk of going around in circles:
Romans and Jeremiah may deserve closer scrutiny as far as Israel being connected to an Olive Tree, but not the Isaiah or Hosea verses.

You said, "You provide no proof. There is no reason to assume that "the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit" (Revelation 11:7) is the same as the "beast coming up out of the earth" (Rev. 13:11)."
Just take a step back and imagine the pictures. Climbing out of a pit vs. coming up out of the earth. A pit can only be in the earth. In Rev. 9, satan is the locust king - general of his forces. In Rev. 13, he is the sweet-talking false messiah here to save everyone and bring world peace - starting in Jerusalem.
 
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Zadok7000 said:
Cheap shot Ebed! I thought better of you. People like Hal Lindsey and Tim LaHaye are deceivers and profiteers. Most of what they say is garbage, however, they are correct in saying Daniel's 70th week is yet future. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I am "one of them". I am not saying that satan as the false christ has 7 years to reign as should be clear from my posts. I believe he has but 5 months. Just read Dan. 9:26-27 and follow the subject and object, there is no room to substitute personal pronouns.

I see more textual evidence to believe that the "he" of Daniel verse 9:27 is the "Messiah" of Daniel 9:26 than the "prince that shall come" of Daniel 9:26.

Zadok7000 said:
So at the risk of going around in circles:
Romans and Jeremiah may deserve closer scrutiny as far as Israel being connected to an Olive Tree, but not the Isaiah or Hosea verses.

You and I know that trees are often a symbol of people and nations in the Bible. The Olive Tree is Israel. Furthermore, olive oil was used to anoint kings. HaMashiach/The Messiah/The Christ is the anointed one. Christians are "anointed ones" or "little anointed ones". The two olive trees are the two anointed/Christian nations.

Zadok7000 said:
You said, "You provide no proof. There is no reason to assume that "the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit" (Revelation 11:7) is the same as the "beast coming up out of the earth" (Rev. 13:11)."
Just take a step back and imagine the pictures. Climbing out of a pit vs. coming up out of the earth. A pit can only be in the earth. In Rev. 9, satan is the locust king - general of his forces. In Rev. 13, he is the sweet-talking false messiah here to save everyone and bring world peace - starting in Jerusalem.

Have you ever heard of a black hole? Space is black and cold and seemingly unending in its expanse. It seems to me that the Bottomless Pit/Abyss is Space whereas Hades/Hell is in the center of the earth.
 
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Just The Facts said:
Hi Zadok


Well lest just stick with one point at a time.

So the Beast is the AC.

Is this the Beast/AC going to the Lake of Fire.

20: And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

We must RIGHTLY DIVIDE the WORD.
There are two beasts. One is described in Rev. 13:1-10 as rising out of the sea. The other in Rev. 13:11-18 is described as coming up out of the earth. The false christ (false prophet) is the second beast. It is not enough to say "the beast = ac". WHICH beast are you referring to? The 1st beast is a political system, not an individual, hence the description of it harkening back to the beasts of Daniel.

Satan has many names. He is called (among other things) the devil, satan, the serpent, the dragon, the false prophet, the son of perdition, the beast that was, and is not, and yet is, and the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit. In Rev. 19:20 which you reference above, the LORD has just returned and is kicking butt. "And the beast was taken," refers to the 1st beast of Rev. 13; the political system. "and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him" refers to the 2nd beast, the false messiah. "These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone." Now sharpen up for me, this is simply saying that:
A) the political system satan used to bring about his kingdom is no more, and
B) his name/role as the false messiah is no more.
Why? Because once the True CHRIST returns, the illusion is over. Satan will be exposed for the fraud that he is. His political kingdom will be gone and he will not be able to claim to be christ anymore.
But then continue on with the narrative to chapter 21:
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Satan is still alive, but now without any help until the 1,000 years are over.
This is when Isa. 14:15-16 is fulfilled:
Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms

Then, in Rev. 20:10, the death sentence pronouced on him in Ezek. 28:18 (hence "the son of perdition") is carried out.
 
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Ebed-Yahweh said:
I see more textual evidence to believe that the "he" of Daniel verse 9:27 is the "Messiah" of Daniel 9:26 than the "prince that shall come" of Daniel 9:26.

And that is your right to believe that.

You and I know that trees are often a symbol of people and nations in the Bible. The Olive Tree is Israel. Furthermore, olive oil was used to anoint kings. HaMashiach/The Messiah/The Christ is the anointed one. Christians are "anointed ones" or "little anointed ones". The two olive trees are the two anointed/Christian nations.

Spiritually, I agree with you about the Olive Tree representing Israel. And of course, the MESSIAH is the annointed ONE, and we are HIS little annointed ones. But how can you extend "two sons of oil" to encompass entire nations?

Have you ever heard of a black hole? Space is black and cold and seemingly unending in its expanse. It seems to me that the Bottomless Pit/Abyss is Space whereas Hades/Hell is in the center of the earth.

Do you think I've never heard of a black hole??? C'mon now Ebed! I am fascinated with space, but neither heaven nor the abyss are out in space. Hades = Sheol; the grave.
 
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Zadok7000 said:
We must RIGHTLY DIVIDE the WORD.
There are two beasts. One is described in Rev. 13:1-10 as rising out of the sea. The other in Rev. 13:11-18 is described as coming up out of the earth. The false christ (false prophet) is the second beast. It is not enough to say "the beast = ac". WHICH beast are you referring to? The 1st beast is a political system, not an individual, hence the description of it harkening back to the beasts of Daniel.

Satan has many names. He is called (among other things) the devil, satan, the serpent, the dragon, the false prophet, the son of perdition, the beast that was, and is not, and yet is, and the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit. In Rev. 19:20 which you reference above, the LORD has just returned and is kicking butt. "And the beast was taken," refers to the 1st beast of Rev. 13; the political system. "and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him" refers to the 2nd beast, the false messiah. "These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone." Now sharpen up for me, this is simply saying that:
A) the political system satan used to bring about his kingdom is no more, and
B) his name/role as the false messiah is no more.
Why? Because once the True CHRIST returns, the illusion is over. Satan will be exposed for the fraud that he is. His political kingdom will be gone and he will not be able to claim to be christ anymore.
But then continue on with the narrative to chapter 21:
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Satan is still alive, but now without any help until the 1,000 years are over.
This is when Isa. 14:15-16 is fulfilled:
Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms

Then, in Rev. 20:10, the death sentence pronouced on him in Ezek. 28:18 (hence "the son of perdition") is carried out.

KJV Revelation 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

Why would John say "he spake as a dragon" if he was the dragon?
 
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HI Zadok

Like I said lets stick to one thing at a Time.

The Beast we agreed was the AC is the Beast from Rev 17.8: The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition:

Then I asked ONE simple question.

Is this the Beast /AC going to the lake of fire.

20: And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

So please lets just stick to one thing at a time and then we can establish some agreed upon Biblical facts. Is Rev 19:20 the Beast /AC from the pit going to the lake of fire.
 
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Ebed-Yahweh said:
KJV Revelation 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

Why would John say "he spake as a dragon" if he was the dragon?

Yes - EXACTLY. Don't let the Simplicity of CHRIST become a stone of stumbling.
 
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Just The Facts said:
HI Zadok

Like I said lets stick to one thing at a Time.

The Beast we agreed was the AC is the Beast from Rev 17.8: The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition:

Then I asked ONE simple question.

Is this the Beast /AC going to the lake of fire.

20: And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

So please lets just stick to one thing at a time and then we can establish some agreed upon Biblical facts. Is Rev 19:20 the Beast /AC from the pit going to the lake of fire.

I had to answer your question at length because of your false supposition.
You suppose that the beast of Rev. 17:8 is the same beast as Rev. 19:20, but they are different as demonstrated in Rev. 13.
 
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Hi

I do not suposes anything of the Sort.

I asked a simple Question about ONE SINGLE VERSE.

8: The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition:

I asked if this was talking about the AC.........You said Yes.

So am I to understand................... that in your understanding...................... this beast in Rev 17 does not go to the Lake of Fire???????????????????

If so what does it mean in the verse quote above "goes into perdition" if it does not mean the lake of fire?
 
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