Doctrine of Election

Status
Not open for further replies.

Lockheed

Well-Known Member
Mar 2, 2005
515
29
✟816.00
Faith
Calvinist
The trouble with calvinism is that it is an "ism," a summation of a system of belief of some human being, in this case, Calvin.

All belief systems are somehow affected by human traditions and ideas. No one can truly say that they have a 'traditionless' belief. Surely Calvin properly summarized parts of Scripture, but no one is saying that Calvin was somehow inspired as the Apostles were inspired.

John Calvin understood God, whatever relationship he had with God, it's not my understanding or my relationship with God, nor is is a particularly attractive relationship with God. Humans beings were endowed by their Creator to search for Him. We search for Him and He finds us.


Dear friend, the Bible states the contrary: "no one seeks for God". It is Christ who "seeks and saves the lost". Lost rebellious sheep don't go looking for the shepherd. Praise God that the Shepherd seeks and saves us, as left to our own devices we never would.

He made a way to be saved and we either meet Him on that path or we go our own way.


It is God who "makes my feet like hinds' feet, And sets me upon my high places", it is God who orders the steps of the righteous. It is all of God and zero me.

God does not force salvation on anyone, and He would rather that everyone be saved, but not everyone wants to, and some people just think they can get there on their own.


And some believe they help God in saving themselves. God knows that on our own, we would all (and have) chosen death over His righteousness. This is why we need a Savior, one who seeks and saves His lost sheep, given to Him by the Father.

God says "I will accomplish all My good pleasure", please, please tell me how He doesn't do what He promises.

Calvin introduced a different but equally ego-centric belief, and that is that some people are chosen by God to be a separate superior race of those who are saved and all others He allows to be born so He can condemn them. That is NOT a God I would worship, that is a God that I would feel alienated and suspicious of.


This is a strawman. All men are guilty before God and deserving of hell. It by grace that God saves anyone. God is not obligated to save anyone, but graciously saves whom He wills. That is most certainly a God deserving of worship, who saves rebellious sinners out of their sin not on the basis of something in them, or something they do, but because of His great love.

Please tell me, why you believe in God, but others do not?
 
Upvote 0

ZiSunka

It means 'yellow dog'
Jan 16, 2002
17,005
284
✟38,767.00
Faith
Christian
All belief systems are somehow affected by human traditions and ideas. No one can truly say that they have a 'traditionless' belief. Surely Calvin properly summarized parts of Scripture, but no one is saying that Calvin was somehow inspired as the Apostles were inspired.

All I know is Christ, and him crucified.

Dear friend, the Bible states the contrary: "no one seeks for God". It is Christ who "seeks and saves the lost". Lost rebellious sheep don't go looking for the shepherd. Praise God that the Shepherd seeks and saves us, as left to our own devices we never would.

You don't know anything about sheep.

It is God who "makes my feet like hinds' feet, And sets me upon my high places", it is God who orders the steps of the righteous. It is all of God and zero me.

All I can tell you is that I desperately wanted Christ. When I found out that I could have a relationship with God through Christ, I went running to HIm as fast as I could. Your experience may be different, you may have been a wicked evil person and God stepped in and intervened. That's not the way it happened for me. If it was true that God seeks out those he wants to save and they all get saved through his sole intervention, why have missions? Won't they all get saved whether or not we do anything? Isn't listening to the words of the missionary a "work" in itself? ;)

This is a strawman. All men are guilty before God and deserving of hell. It by grace that God saves anyone. God is not obligated to save anyone, but graciously saves whom He wills. That is most certainly a God deserving of worship, who saves rebellious sinners out of their sin not on the basis of something in them, or something they do, but because of His great love.

No, your words are a strawman. They are not a response to my statement, they are just trying to deflect the fact that you don't have an answer.

Please tell me, why you believe in God, but others do not?

Because 20 years ago I was in a situation in which no one could help me. I turned to God and said, "God, if you are really real, I need you to provide for me right now, to help me, to show me that you exist and love me." And God answered that prayer. I didn't get saved until four years later, after I found out that there is a way for me to be righteous enough to be with God. But I believe in God for the same reason I believe in my parents. He took care of me, he showed me his love. I could have chosen to do evil to meet my needs, but I chose to look to God to be my source, and whenever I have the slightest doubts about Him, I remember that great gift of Him providing for me even when I was a sinner who didn't believe in Christ at all.
 
Upvote 0

Lockheed

Well-Known Member
Mar 2, 2005
515
29
✟816.00
Faith
Calvinist
lambslove said:
All I know is Christ, and him crucified.

So you deny being a "Baptist"?

What does "Christ crucified" mean when Christ's death only made salvation possible, but didn't actually save anyone from their sins?

Dear friend, the Bible states the contrary: "no one seeks for God". It is Christ who "seeks and saves the lost". Lost rebellious sheep don't go looking for the shepherd. Praise God that the Shepherd seeks and saves us, as left to our own devices we never would.

You don't know anything about sheep.

Surely I've not done something to deserve such treatment? Did my quoting Scripture anger you?

All I can tell you is that I desperately wanted Christ. When I found out that I could have a relationship with God through Christ, I went running to HIm as fast as I could. Your experience may be different, you may have been a wicked evil person and God stepped in and intervened.

Were you somehow less wicked or evil than others and so God decided to save you? Did God save you because you "desperately wanted Christ"? What made you "desperately want Christ"... did God use the preaching of the Word to open your heart and mind to the fact that you needed Him?

Are you saying that God sometimes acts against a person's will?

That's not the way it happened for me. If it was true that God seeks out those he wants to save and they all get saved through his sole intervention, why have missions?

Because God uses means. Just as God uses the word to bring people to faith, God uses the preaching of the Word. We are called "ambassadors of Christ" because we have been sent of God to do His will. God uses men to bring others to faith in Christ through the preaching of the Word, thus His disciples are commanded to preach the word.

Won't they all get saved whether or not we do anything? Isn't listening to the words of the missionary a "work" in itself? ;)

People will be saved however God wants them to be saved. God uses the preaching of the Word to supernaturally open the hearts of men so that they can hear, understand, and respond to the Gospel.
Acts 16:14
A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.
This is a strawman. All men are guilty before God and deserving of hell. It by grace that God saves anyone. God is not obligated to save anyone, but graciously saves whom He wills. That is most certainly a God deserving of worship, who saves rebellious sinners out of their sin not on the basis of something in them, or something they do, but because of His great love.


No, your words are a strawman. They are not a response to my statement, they are just trying to deflect the fact that you don't have an answer.

It doesn't matter what I think, though. It's what the Bible teaches that is important here. God is not a 'respecter of persons' and doesn't save us on the basis of deeds we do, or something in us. He makes us born again according to His will, not the will of man. (John 1:13)

I really don't think I deserve your derision in this manner.

Because 20 years ago I was in a situation in which no one could help me. I turned to God and said, "God, if you are really real, I need you to provide for me right now, to help me, to show me that you exist and love me." And God answered that prayer. I didn't get saved until four years later, after I found out that there is a way for me to be righteous enough to be with God. But I believe in God for the same reason I believe in my parents. He took care of me, he showed me his love. I could have chosen to do evil to meet my needs, but I chose to look to God to be my source, and whenever I have the slightest doubts about Him, I remember that great gift of Him providing for me even when I was a sinner who didn't believe in Christ at all.

God provided for you when you "didn't believe in Christ at all"? So you're saying God was gracious to you while you were still an enemy of Christ?
 
Upvote 0

ZiSunka

It means 'yellow dog'
Jan 16, 2002
17,005
284
✟38,767.00
Faith
Christian
So you deny being a "Baptist"?

yes, I am not a baptist. I am not denominational at all, but I do happen to attend an anabaptist church.

What does "Christ crucified" mean when Christ's death only made salvation possible, but didn't actually save anyone from their sins?

What?

People will be saved however God wants them to be saved. God uses the preaching of the Word to supernaturally open the hearts of men so that they can hear, understand, and respond to the Gospel.

But those people would get saved anyway, right? I mean, if hearing and responding to the gospel is unnecessary to salvation, if it is completely of God and not at all of humans, why did He even give us the gospel at all? Why doesn't He just save who He wants supernaturally and discard all the need for evangelizing?

God provided for you when you "didn't believe in Christ at all"? So you're saying God was gracious to you while you were still an enemy of Christ?

Yes He did. Yes He was.

I really don't think I deserve your derision in this manner.

What? How is me using the same words you posted somehow loving on your part but dirisive on my part?
 
Upvote 0

ZiSunka

It means 'yellow dog'
Jan 16, 2002
17,005
284
✟38,767.00
Faith
Christian
Surely I've not done something to deserve such treatment? Did my quoting Scripture anger you?

What treatment? All I said was that you don't know anything about sheep, and your statement shows you don't know anything about sheep. Stating the obvious isn't mistreatment. Quoting scripture never angers me. I wish you would research what you post to make sure it is in context and the absolute word on the subject, which you didn't in this case, but I love when people quote scripture.
 
Upvote 0

oworm

Veteran
Nov 24, 2003
2,487
173
United States
Visit site
✟12,171.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
UK-Conservative
lambslove said:
The trouble with calvinism is that it is an "ism," a summation of a system of belief of some human being, in this case, Calvin. However John Calvin understood God, whatever relationship he had with God, it's not my understanding or my relationship with God, nor is is a particularly attractive relationship with God. Humans beings were endowed by their Creator to search for Him. We search for Him and He finds us. He made a way to be saved and we either meet Him on that path or we go our own way. It is His way, but it is our choice. God does not force salvation on anyone, and He would rather that everyone be saved, but not everyone wants to, and some people just think they can get there on their own. Calvin introduced a different but equally ego-centric belief, and that is that some people are chosen by God to be a separate superior race of those who are saved and all others He allows to be born so He can condemn them. That is NOT a God I would worship, that is a God that I would feel alienated and suspicious of.

You have obviously never read Calvin to any kind of consistent degree. Thats obvious by your statement:
Calvin introduced a different but equally ego-centric belief, and that is that some people are chosen by God to be a separate superior race of those who are saved and all others He allows to be born so He can condemn them

I would challenge you to find in any of his writings the thought that The elect are a superior race! I find it an abomination that you would liken calvanism to Hitleralism!
 
Upvote 0
oworm said:
I would challenge you to find in any of his writings the thought that The elect are a superior race! I find it an abomination that you would liken calvanism to Hitleralism!

roman 3:23 all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

1 cor 10:32 jews, gentiles ,and the church of God

the elect are chosen by God ......2 tim 1:9

how does God chose...1 cor 1:26-29
1peter 2:9-10
 
Upvote 0

unimportantbuthisnameis

Philippians 2:8-10
Oct 27, 2004
1,641
35
43
North Carolina
Visit site
✟16,997.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
oworm said:
You have obviously never read Calvin to any kind of consistent degree. Thats obvious by your statement:


I would challenge you to find in any of his writings the thought that The elect are a superior race! I find it an abomination that you would liken calvanism to Hitleralism!

The problem that line of thinking is that IF the elect have been given a special gift from God (such as salvatio, and/or faith) that but them (the elect) in a different catergory than the rest of humanity (special by default).

Even if Calvinist don't teach it directly the overall nature of the theologocal teachings imply that "I'm elect and that makes me more loved (by God) than you" (I know it's a direct quote used for emphasis). The way I see is that by having the Calvinistic beliefs you CANNOT be heartbroken for the salvation of non-believers BECAUSE, "if it was God's will they would be saved" (but it is His will that they be saved).
 
Upvote 0

Lockheed

Well-Known Member
Mar 2, 2005
515
29
✟816.00
Faith
Calvinist
unimportantbuthisnameis said:
The problem that line of thinking is that IF the elect have been given a special gift from God (such as salvatio, and/or faith) that but them (the elect) in a different catergory than the rest of humanity (special by default).

Anyone shown favor by God is so shown without their meriting it at all. It is clear, from Scripture, that some people receive a super-abundance of grace as opposed to others, but it is on the basis of God's decision and His choice.

"I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."

Even if Calvinist don't teach it directly the overall nature of the theologocal teachings imply that "I'm elect and that makes me more loved (by God) than you" (I know it's a direct quote used for emphasis). The way I see is that by having the Calvinistic beliefs you CANNOT be heartbroken for the salvation of non-believers BECAUSE, "if it was God's will they would be saved" (but it is His will that they be saved).

I'm not sure where we're called to be 'heartbroken' over God's justly judging whom He will. We should rather be heartbroken over our own sins and be peacemakers between men and God by preaching the good news.

I guess the fact that some receive grace while others receive justice is certainly troubling and should cause the believer to fearfully respect their Father and it should cause those who believe to throw themselves on the mercy of God all the more... but "heartbroken"? Are we heartbroken when murderers receive due penalty for their errors?

Sure there's a sense of foreboding of the coming wrath of God against all those who rebel, and thus we are ambassadors of God to them, but when the truth is rejected we should, as Paul did, move on. When Christ sent out the 70 to preach to Israel He told them to "shake the dust off the soles of your feet for a testimony against them"...
 
Upvote 0

JustinWindsor

Active Member
Mar 28, 2005
386
19
61
✟8,116.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
...was a systematic study of the use of the word 'faith' in Scripture. It became evident to me that the character and nature of 'faith' is...
it is a gift from the Triune God, apportioned to each of His children according to God's own will.

When I read the passages (not just the verses) I am humbled by all that God has done for us.

I won't bore you with the scripture references because it is so incredibly easy to do a search now with all the wonderful reference tools available on the internet.

Regarding 'free will', have to agree with Lockheed. Scripture says that we are slave to sin. This is clearly due to the sinful nature of man resulting from the fall. There is nothing in Scripture to indicate to me that mankind can even seek Christ unless the Holy Spirit has quickened them... made them alive in Christ.

For me at least, Arminius' theology of free will was not Biblical. His 'Declaration of Sentiments' was self contradictory, and he did not treat Scripture with the respect and reverence it deserves with his interpretation.

Here's a place where you can read his work if you care to...

semperreformanda.com/arminius1.htm

I'm all for opposing view points...equal time..as they say.

May God Bless
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

unimportantbuthisnameis

Philippians 2:8-10
Oct 27, 2004
1,641
35
43
North Carolina
Visit site
✟16,997.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
JustinWindsor said:
...was a systematic study of the use of the word 'faith' in Scripture. It became evident to me that the character and nature of 'faith' is...
it is a gift from the Triune God, apportioned to each of His children according to God's own will.

When I read the passages (not just the verses) I am humbled by all that God has done for us.

I won't bore you with the scripture references because it is so incredibly easy to do a search now with all the wonderful reference tools available on the internet.

Regarding 'free will', have to agree with Lockheed. Scripture says that we are slave to sin. This is clearly due to the sinful nature of man resulting from the fall. There is nothing in Scripture to indicate to me that mankind can even seek Christ unless the Holy Spirit has quickened them... made them alive in Christ.

For me at least, Arminius' theology of free will was not Biblical. His 'Declaration of Sentiments' was self contradictory, and he did not treat Scripture with the respect and reverence it deserves with his interpretation.

Here's a place where you can read his work if you care to...

semperreformanda.com/arminius1.htm

I'm all for opposing view points...equal time..as they say.

May God Bless



Let's the definition of faith:

Websters says:

Main Entry: 1faith
Pronunciation: 'fAth
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural faiths /'fAths, sometimes 'fA[th]z/
Etymology: Middle English feith, from Old French feid, foi, from Latin fides; akin to Latin fidere to trust -- more at [size=-1]BIDE[/size]
1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : [size=-1]LOYALTY[/size] b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions
2 a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust
3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs

perhaps you would prefer a infallible def.:
Hebrews 11:1

1Now faith is the (A)assurance of things (B)hoped for, the conviction of (C)things not seen. (NASB)

Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. (NIV)

1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. (KJV)

From the biblical viewpoint atheists who believe in the big bang theory have faith as it is something that is not perceived by the 5 senses. You'll say "that's not 'saving' faith" in my reading the Bible only talks about faith in Christ. If everyone has faith in something then how can you say that only some can be saved?
 
Upvote 0

MbiaJc

Veteran
Jul 9, 2004
1,895
61
81
Bowdon, Ga.
✟2,360.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Regarding 'free will', have to agree with Lockheed. Scripture says that we are slave to sin. This is clearly due to the sinful nature of man resulting from the fall. There is nothing in Scripture to indicate to me that mankind can even seek Christ unless the Holy Spirit has quickened them... made them alive in Christ.



Not so! Your statments are simply not so! For instance take Peter and for that mater all the Apostles. They sought Jesus but were not "quickened" by the Holy Spirit. They were drawn by the Spirit but wansn't "quickened" till the day of Penecost.

The Spies Moses sent into the promise land is a picture how the Holy Spirit works. Of all that were sint in only two came back and said they could take the promise land. Picture the land as the spirit the two are the only ones "quickened", however the others all searched it out even partook of the fruit, but never was "quickened".
This also describes the ones Paul is talking about in Hebrew 6:4-6. They tasted of the heavenly gift, were pertakers of the Holy Spirit yet were not "quickened", for they rejected the heavenly gift and returned to their former state.

We see form all these man can seek Jesus Christ being drawn by the Holy Spirit yet rejecting the call and not being "quickened" because of unbelief.
 
Upvote 0

ksen

Wiki on Garth!
Mar 24, 2003
7,053
427
56
Florida
Visit site
✟20,679.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
MbiaJc said:
Not so! Your statments are simply not so! For instance take Peter and for that mater all the Apostles. They sought Jesus but were not "quickened" by the Holy Spirit. They were drawn by the Spirit but wansn't "quickened" till the day of Penecost.

Where do you see that the Apostles sought Christ? He sought them out. Everything else flowed from that.

The Spies Moses sent into the promise land is a picture how the Holy Spirit works. Of all that were sint in only two came back and said they could take the promise land. Picture the land as the spirit the two are the only ones "quickened", however the others all searched it out even partook of the fruit, but never was "quickened".
This also describes the ones Paul is talking about in Hebrew 6:4-6. They tasted of the heavenly gift, were pertakers of the Holy Spirit yet were not "quickened", for they rejected the heavenly gift and returned to their former state.

Where in the Bible is the land ever connected with the Spirit? It is possible to stretch these spiritualizations of Scripture too far.

We see form all these man can seek Jesus Christ being drawn by the Holy Spirit yet rejecting the call and not being "quickened" because of unbelief.
  • No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. - John 6:44(KJV)
No one comes without the Fathers drawing, and those the Father draws will be raised up by Christ.
 
Upvote 0

unimportantbuthisnameis

Philippians 2:8-10
Oct 27, 2004
1,641
35
43
North Carolina
Visit site
✟16,997.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
ksen said:
Where do you see that the Apostles sought Christ? He sought them out. Everything else flowed from that.
Would you care to prove that biblically, as i f you read the accounts of the calling in John it seems that they sought the Messiah, not your view.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

JM

Coram Deo.
Supporter
Jun 26, 2004
17,337
3,604
Canada
✟738,496.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Others
From the moment I gave my life to Christ, I was sure of election. Like a pig in mud, I was happy in sin and would never have chosen Jesus Christ if it wasn't for His saving Grace calling me out. As someone pointed out in the Reformed Forum, maybe the TULIP needs to be updated to ELECT: Exhaustive Depravity, Lord-centered Election, Effectual Atonement, Conquering Grace and Triumphant Saints.

I wasn't taught to believe in the election, I read the Bible and it drips of God's purpose and plan, I've even tried to deny the truths of the Gospel when I first found out I was a calvinist.

Never again.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BBAS 64
Upvote 0

BBAS 64

Contributor
Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
9,845
1,707
58
New England
✟484,036.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Street Preacher said:
From the moment I gave my life to Christ, I was sure of election. Like a pig in mud, I was happy in sin and would never have chosen Jesus Christ if it wasn't for His saving Grace calling me out. As someone pointed out in the Reformed Forum, maybe the TULIP needs to be updated to ELECT: Exhaustive Depravity, Lord-centered Election, Effectual Atonement, Conquering Grace and Triumphant Saints.

I wasn't taught to believe in the election, I read the Bible and it drips of God's purpose and plan, I've even tried to deny the truths of the Gospel when I first found out I was a calvinist.

Never again.

Nice Brother :amen:
 
Upvote 0

Lockheed

Well-Known Member
Mar 2, 2005
515
29
✟816.00
Faith
Calvinist
Would you care to prove that biblically, as i f you read the accounts of the calling in John it seems that they sought the Messiah, not your view.
Does Christ's own words not count? It is apparent that people were seeking a messiah, yes, but not the type of Messiah that Christ was. Likewise, people all over the world seek for a god, but none seek for the Living God of Scripture apart from His calling and choosing them first.
 
Upvote 0

unimportantbuthisnameis

Philippians 2:8-10
Oct 27, 2004
1,641
35
43
North Carolina
Visit site
✟16,997.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Lockheed said:
Does Christ's own words not count? It is apparent that people were seeking a messiah, yes, but not the type of Messiah that Christ was. Likewise, people all over the world seek for a god, but none seek for the Living God of Scripture apart from His calling and choosing them first.

I was asking for a specific verse to support you previous claim (which you failed to provide).
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

A Brother In Christ

Senior Veteran
Mar 30, 2005
5,528
53
Royal city, washington
✟5,985.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
A Brethren IN CHRIST said:
roman 3:23 all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

1 cor 10:32 jews, gentiles ,and the church of God

the elect are chosen by God ......2 tim 1:9

how does God chose...1 cor 1:26-29
1peter 2:9-10

no response?
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.