Terri Schiavo: Latest Developments & Discussion (Part 1 of 2)

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bevets

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We have evidence that something may have happened pretty ugly the night that she collapsed. ~ Suzanne Vitadmo, Terri Schiavo's sister

The trauma can be from an auto accident, the trauma can be from some kind of beating that she obtained from somebody somewhere. It's something that should have been investigated in 1991 when those findings were fresh. ~ Michael Baden former chief medical examiner for New York City

The reason she's in the state she's in is because there was a period of time, maybe five minutes or eight minutes, when not enough oxygen was going to her brain, that can happen because the heart stops for 5 or 8 minutes, but she had a healthy heart, from what we can see. ~ Michael Baden

They are truly withholding food from a person who is awake, alert, and can eat and swallow. ~ William Hammesfahr MD

To enter the room of Terri Schiavo is nothing like entering the room of a patient who is comatose or brain-dead or in some neurological sense no longer there. ~ Dr. William Polk Cheshire Jr.

As I looked at Terri, and she gazed directly back at me, I asked myself whether, if I were her attending physician, I could in good conscience withdraw her feeding and hydration," he wrote. "No, I could not. I could not withdraw life support if I were asked. I could not withhold life-sustaining nutrition and hydration from this beautiful lady whose face brightens in the presence of others. ~ Dr. William Polk Cheshire Jr.

On three or four occasions, I personally fed Terri small amounts of Jello which she was able to swallow and enjoyed immensely. ~ Heidi Law CNA

I know that Terri did not receive routine physical therapy or any kind of therapy. I was personally aware of orders for rehabilitation that were not being carried out. Even though they were ordered, Michael would stop them. ~ Heidi Law

No therapy per husbands orders. Dr's orders over ridden. Patient kept in isolation, no stimulation. ~ Carolyn Johnson

Throughout my time at Palm Gardens, Michael Schiavo was focused on Terris death. Michael would say When is she going to die?, Has she died yet? and When is that biatch gonna die? These statements were common knowledge at Palm Gardens, as he would make them casually in passing, without regard even for who he was talking to, as long as it was a staff member. Other statements which I recall him making include Cant you do anything to accelerate her death - wont she ever die? When she wouldnt die, Michael would be furious. Michael was also adamant that the family should not be given information. He made numerous statements such as Make sure the parents arent contacted. ~ Carla Sauer Iyer RN

Michael Schiavo always had an overbearing attitude, yelling numerous times such things as This is my order and youre going to follow it. He is very large and uses menacing body language, such as standing too close to you, getting right in your face and practically shouting. ~ Carla Sauer Iyer

Any time Terri would be sick, like with a UTI or fluid buildup in her lungs, colds, pneumonia, Michael would be visibly excited, thrilled even, hoping that she would die. He would call me, as I was the nurse supervisor on the floor, and ask for every little detail about her temperature, blood pressure, etc., and would call back frequently asking if she was dead yet. He would blurt out Im going to be rich!, and would talk about all the things he would buy when Terri died, which included a new car, a new boat, and going to Europe, among other things. ~ Carla Sauer Iyer

When Michael visited Terri, he always came alone and always had the door closed and locked while he was with Terri. He would typically be there about twenty minutes or so. When he left Terri would would be trembling, crying hysterically, and would be very pale and have cold sweats. It looked to me like Terri was having a hypoglycemic reaction, so Id check her blood sugar. The glucometer reading would be so low it was below the range where it would register an actual number reading. I would put dextrose in Terris mouth to counteract it. This happened about five times on my shift as I recall. Normally Terris blood sugar levels were very stable due to the uniformity of her diet through tube feeding. It is my belief that Michael injected Terri with Regular insulin, which is very fast acting. ~ Carla Sauer Iyer

How the hell should I know we never spoke about this, my God I was only 25 years old. How the hell should I know? We were young. We never spoke of this. ~ Michael Schiavo to girlfriend Cindy Shook

But this is not about them, it's about Terri. And I've also said that in court. We didn't know what Terri wanted, but this is what we want. ~ Michael Schiavo to Larry King

http://www.slate.com/id/2115208/

http://www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/pnoonan/?id=110006460

http://www.terrisfight.net/
 
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brinny

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sparks_will_fly said:
im ashamed that this has got to this point.we should not be hearing anything of this,its a really evil deal that this "husband" cannot give terri to the people that LOVE her. in a court of law this "heresay" shouldn't stand up.he will live with this decision the rest of his life..may eat away at him.

Bingo.
 
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wowbagger

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santalucia said:

He never states that she speaks. He says:

"Although I did not hear Terri utter distinct words, she demonstrates emotional expressivity by her use of single syllable vocalizations such as "ah, or making cooing sounds, or by expressing gutteral sounds of annoyance or moaning..." All these sounds are consistent with PVS, which Dr. Cheshire DOES NOT treat.

He claims she does sounds in context, but we heard that before from the other Schindler doctors, without credibility when the tapes were reviewed. Cheshires claims have not been reviewed and there is no video.

It should be noted that he spent 45 minutes with her 3 weeks ago and didn't come forward till now? Sounds ridiculous given all the events of that last 2 weeks that he would wait till she was near expiration. At least he is more credible than the Non-Nobel nominee Hammesfahr.

What do you think? Still think there is proof she can talk?

I am also skeptical that all these medical experts they find, just so happen to be heavily religious in Christianity and pro-life. I wish they found someone without an agenda. But that is JMHO.

.
 
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brinny

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2001MustangGT said:
If so, then why are you fighting against Terri's wishes??? It is Terris wish to not be kept alive on artificial life support. You seem to not understand that Terirs parents are not acting on Terris best interests, but their own. It is natural for a parent to not want their child to die before they do themselves, but this must be passed over in favor of Terris wishes, and Terri wishes to not be kept alive like a vegetable on machines. Michael Schiavo understands this and that is why he is fighting for his wifes best interests.
How about respecting the wishes of someone who does not want to be in an indignified state of vegetative incapacity? Death with dignity is the issue here, and Terri deserves this dignity.
So you concede then that you, like her parents, are not acting within Terris best interests, nor are you respecting Terris wishes.
Maybe you should start thinking about Terri and what she wants, not what you want for Terri.

*I am not fighting, merely posting what I believe.
*Terri was not on artificial life support.
*I do not believe it is undignified to be injured, be ill, or need help from others. We come into the world helpless, and as we age we may become more 'helpless' or less able to care for ourselves. It does not mean we are worthy of less dignity.
 
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jsn112

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wowbagger said:
He never states that she speaks. He says:

"Although I did not hear Terri utter distinct words, she demonstrates emotional expressivity by her use of single syllable vocalizations such as "ah, or making cooing sounds, or by expressing gutteral sounds of annoyance or moaning..." All these sounds are consistent with PVS, which Dr. Cheshire DOES NOT treat.

He claims she does sounds in context, but we heard that before from the other Schindler doctors, without credibility when the tapes were reviewed. Cheshires claims have not been reviewed and there is no video.

It should be noted that he spent 45 minutes with her 3 weeks ago and didn't come forward till now? Sounds ridiculous given all the events of that last 2 weeks that he would wait till she was near expiration. At least he is more credible than the Non-Nobel nominee Hammesfahr.

What do you think? Still think there is proof she can talk?

I am also skeptical that all these medical experts they find, just so happen to be heavily religious in Christianity and pro-life. But that is JMHO.

.
After all the testimonies you have read from the nurses and doctors, not even a hint of doubt in your mind or common sense? :scratch:
 
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PACKY

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When thinking of this case the main things tha bother me are:
1) michael Schiavo has moved on he has taken a partner and started a family
2) what does Michael Schiavo have to lose by allowing Terri to live?
3) why does Michael Schiavo want her Immediately cremated?

I cant help but think there is something to hide...
Just my own opinion..
 
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brinny

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BLESSEDBETHEMEEK said:
When thinking of this case the main things tha bother me are:
1) michael Schiavo has moved on he has taken a partner and started a family
2) what does Michael Schiavo have to lose by allowing Terri to live?
3) why does Michael Schiavo want her Immediately cremated?

I cant help but think there is something to hide...
Just my own opinion..

Bingo.
 
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PACKY

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brinny said:

I know that there will be a flurry of responses saying that i am making personal attacks and unfounded statements against Mike Schiavo, yet It's simply my Gut instinct, even when I see the guy on TV my skin just crawls...If she wanted to die then fine respect her wishes I am not against that,,,
I survive on a daily basis in a maximum security prison by being able to read people and take in their non-verbal cues and signs of deception, I just cant help but think there is really a dark secret being hidden and with her death the secret dies as well...just my opinion.
 
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brinny

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BLESSEDBETHEMEEK said:
When thinking of this case the main things tha bother me are:
1) michael Schiavo has moved on he has taken a partner and started a family
2) what does Michael Schiavo have to lose by allowing Terri to live?
3) why does Michael Schiavo want her Immediately cremated?

I cant help but think there is something to hide...
Just my own opinion..

1) Yes he has.
2) Exactly.
3) Exactly.
 
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wowbagger

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jsn112 said:
After all the testimonies you have read from the nurses and doctors, not even a hint of doubt in your mind or common sense? :scratch:

It's possible, though unlikely, that all of the unbiased neuorlogists who provided evidence for their testimony are wrong in saying that she is in a PVS. What IS clear is that her higher functions are gone. The EEG was flat. The CT scan showed atrophy of virtually all of her cerebral cortex. Those are facts. She cannot recover from that. No one ever has.

What is also clear to me is that all of the dissenting opinions, from 2 neurologists, provided no evidence for their testimony. Hammesfahr, the only neurologist to examine her in 2002 is clearly shown to have questionable claims, and even outright lies. He is not credible.
http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=14397838#post14397838

These 2 are also conservative Christians, active in the pro-life movement. Their bias is suspect for me knowing the wealth of expertise available to the Schindlers.

No unbiased doctors in this case have given any evidence (and they have had 8 years to do so) that she is not in a PVS.

Like you said, let's stick to the facts. And the facts support that Terri would not have wanted to be in this state, and that she is in a PVS.

I am confident that the courts have reviewed the case extensively and come to the correct conclusion over the last 8 years.

It is sad that Terri lost her personhood. It is sad that such a beautiful person's brain has atrophied to the point where she has lost cognition. But that is where the facts lead. And no reasonable person would wish for their body to remain alive for the wishes of her parents and the clear religious agenda which supports them. I actually think they may be unwitting pawns in this whole fiasco. I just hope that they are not mentally damaged by it all and will come to accept that their daughter is in a better place.

There is always a small portion of doubt in my mind, though every time new evidence comes up, it never seems to stick. At some point, you have to weigh her rights over the endless proceedings which have failed to produce any merit.

I hope you find solace in that she will be with her God soon. And if you believe that personhood is the seat of the soul, then she has already been there for 15 years.

wowbagger
 
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ForeRunner

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BLESSEDBETHEMEEK said:
When thinking of this case the main things tha bother me are:

These things don't bother me at all. I would have likely behaved exactly as he has.

1) michael Schiavo has moved on he has taken a partner and started a family

There came a time when Michael accepted Terri was gone and never coming back, at that point, like most widows (especially young ones), he grieved and moved on.

2) what does Michael Schiavo have to lose by allowing Terri to live?

To fufill the woman he loved's final wishes. I would do the same thing, if my girlfriend was my wife and in the same situation.

3) why does Michael Schiavo want her Immediately cremated?

No idea, nor do I see how it is relevant.

I cant help but think there is something to hide...
Just my own opinion..

I can't see how anyone would think he is acting in the best interest of the woman he loved. there is no other explaination, it would be and have been far easier for him to just give up.
 
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ForeRunner said:
To fufill the woman he loved's final wishes.

The only problem I would have with that statement is that, she left no will indicating whether or not that was her wish. He could be lying about that being her final wish, especially if he has something to hide... JMO.

*~*Chloe Williams*~*

 
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Ginny

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One thing I don't get is how easily people can ignore the fact that the man is still legally married to Terri but playing house with another woman.

"There came a time when Michael accepted Terri was gone and never coming back, at that point, like most widows (especially young ones), he grieved and moved on."

Moving on means getting divorced or keeping your body to yourself until Terri has passed away., If he had soooo moved on then he should have divorced her....Funny how Terri becoming disabled made him love her less enough to go find someone else. I, personally, cannot imagine in a million years taking up with some other man b/c my husband became disabled...no matter how long....

Also, if I were Mrs. Mistress and had a clue, I would demand that Mr. Skirt Around divorce Terri...why is he waiting for Terri to die if he loves this other lady so much?

But yet, I must remember Jesus....and not everyone else sees through His eyes.

This whole thing is a freak show. I am not necessarily on any side (strictly) but even if I thought Terri should be "let go" this man certainly does paint the model husband....but then again he left her a loooong time ago.

If certain individuals did not have so many character flaws, maybe this dramatic story could be more easily swallowed.

On the other hand, I have also asked myself....if there were one ounce of hope for her....how could so many people within the law continually say no? Surely they are not all in "cohoots" with each other.....

I don't know...:(

 
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Ninja Turtles

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santalucia said:
Say what you want, but Christians who are supporting this are going against 2000 years of undebatable Christian teaching, and against everything Jesus said about the helpless among us. They will have to explain this to their Maker, that's their problem. And I know that there are those who want to keep the tube in that are not Christian, but they are on the whole ignored. If it was just those like the liberal, Democrat disabled woman protesting in front of Terri's death house, I would bet my last penny that there would not be this outcry against them for wanting to keep her alive.
No one ignores the liberals and atheists that want to keep the tube in. You're the one saying that it's a liberal against Christian thing. I did not say that. However, I took issue with you saying it was a liberal vs. Christians considering the fact that many Christians have no problem removing the feeding tube, unless you're saying they are immoral or they are not real Christians. But speaking of morals, isn't it immoral for those that want to keep Mrs. Schiavo's body functioning to misrepresent and lie on television to the public? Dr. Hammerwhatever comes to mind.

santalucia said:
You have never answered the question of why NOT do the tests? Why insist on death without giving her the benefit of the doubt? Hydrocephalus came into the discussion because of the absurd claims on your side that her brain had turned into water. And you are making the totally erroneous and inexcusable decision to go by tests and ignore the patient herself, and all the testimony that people are giving about her consciousness.
I have answered the questions numerous times as to why the tests are useless and why they will not provide extra information. Check out the Legal and Ethical debate thread to see that I have given adequate information on the different imaging techniques and why the call for additional tests will give you nothing new. And often looking at what all these "doctors" are saying, I really wonder if they know anything about MRI, PET, SPECT, or even something as simple as X-Ray.

But now I am confused about your comment about hydrocephalus. It was only brought up because you think the fact that most of the cerbral cortex is now CSF is a lie, so you might as well throw in another possibility? :scratch: But why bring in another possibility if it has no connection to the condition of her brain. The age group and causes of hydrocephalus weren't even taken into consideration, it was just vague knowledge mashed together. For instance, the claim that the electrode caused hydrocephalus. However, if you looked at the causes of hydrocephalus, it's either you just brought in misinformation you hadn't researched, or it was deliberate (but I'll give you the benefit of a doubt ;)).

And now I'm supposed to believe the testimonies of people, one of whom is a genuine fraud? I'm supposed to accept heavily edited video altered to suit an agenda? Send me the four hour tape if you really expect me to believe that she's cognizant? And if she is, we need to put her in a museum because I've never seen a person without higher brain functions with the ability to respond voluntarily. Amazing. :p

santalucia said:
It is, sadly, all about the culture war. And I would give the answers of no and no to your last questions.
So the testimonies trump the actual data? And considering a big chunk of the proof is a misrepresentation, you still accept it at face value? The husband does have legal guardianship and they have concluded she's in PVS, they just need to let this woman die because I'm tired of people turning this into a culture war. It's only a culture war because YOU make it a culture war.
 
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brinny said:

Actually, there are cases where second hand accounts do stand up. This is one of those cases. It has gone through every single level of court in the land, from a local probate court all the way to the Supreme Court. If there had been a compelling legal battle to be argued, the Supreme Court would have taken it, so that they could set judicial precident. They didn't, thus Terri's wishes to not live via feeding tube have been admitted with preponderance of the evidence, and it is as if she said them herself in court.
 
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Chloe Williams said:
The only problem I would have with that statement is that, she left no will indicating whether or not that was her wish. He could be lying about that being her final wish, especially if he has something to hide... JMO.

*~*Chloe Williams*~*


Michael is not the only one who has said that. The court took into account several people who witnessed her wishes.

Millions upon millions of people all across the united states have made this same decision, not to be kept alive through artificial life support. It is not uncommon. In fact, in light of this recent episode, almost every member of my family has made the same decision.
 
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Funny how wowbagger said that "Terry has lost her personhood". That is tripe outright. That is along the same line what a Liutenent in the German army said about the "Jewish Question" during World War II. This is a electonic copy of the letter he wrote. Found here.

The more you learn about what the Nazis did to many people in the camps, the more youknow you are seeing the same thinking that is being pushed by this Terry Schaivo case.

It seems that those that respond, a mix of Christians and others (I don't know who), at least the Christans care seem to care about life and while others are willing to throw away another human being's life away except their own. Funny how that works.

Aslo, Judge Geroge Greer ordered the feeding tube to removed from her use (look carefully at the last half of this sentence) to coincide with the Easter break for the national Congress and Florida Congress. They would have taken two weeks off, enough time for Terry to die and for no one to interfere with his ruling.

Michel truly has something to hide. He doesn't allow Terry out from her hospital room, he has ordered that the shades on the windows be drawn shut so no light comes in. Its like what they did in Block 11 in Aushwitz. This is a Quicktime panorama of the block here. A Polish Franscician was started in a "starvation cell". here is a panaorama of his cell here. He was starved to death in a very dark strile cell. Her parents and friends who has visited her have told the world that she has sunken eyes, flaky dry skin, dry mouth and parched tongue. I know what her parents are talking about. I recently had very dry hands. The skin on the back of my hands was itchy and flaky. This is because I had been so busy and didn't bother to drink water like I should have. The creases on the back of my hands, instead of being visible only when you purposefully look were very prnouced, raised up. I stretched the skin and it snapped back like old-lady's skin. When I rubbed it between my fingers it would feel like small parts of my skin would peel and break apart. It hurt a small bit. This was only after 3 days of not getting the water I needed. How much more so after Terry not drinking or eating ANYHING in six days?! Look at any Holocause prisioners and you will see that it is what she looks like.

If Micheal was truly innocent, he would have willing took Terry out to ordinary folks and let them see that Terry was what he claims her to be. But no, he keeps her shut up in single room for years.

He also only now visits Terry only after 15 years of never showing up and neglecting her. He abadoned her a long time ago.

Terry was 26 when she became like this. When your 26 you are not thinking about end-of-life matters. You have your whole life ahead of you and you are doing something to reach a general goal that many want :good job, good house, safe neighborhood, married with a children. This weighs very heavily for her never saying she wanted to die. Micheal is lying to you, me, and to everybody else.

I read a saying, "the more you hate, the cruel you are' the more cruel you are, the more hate". A visious cycle of ever increasing barbarism.
 
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