I Thess.4 and I Cor. 15 are not Rapture Verses

Zadok7000 · Mar 22, 2005

A Brethren IN CHRIST said:
1 peter 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: 11 seaching what, or what manner of time the spirit of Christ which was by them did signify, when it testified before hand the suffering of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

why? How did the KING suffer.... was there question....

the prophesied but did not understand.....

Forgive me Brother, but I have no idea what your point is. You said previously that there is nothing in the Old Testament about the rapture, now you're saying they did prophesy of it but they didn't understand it???

A Brethren IN CHRIST · Mar 22, 2005

MbiaJc said:
Nope! The Church doesn't leave till the 7th trumpet, which can't blow till after the 6th seal. The 6th seal doesn't happen till the end of the Tribulation, read Matt. 24:29 The 7th trumpet is when Jesus hands out the rewards. I used to be pre-trib till I learned the truth. The Church will be on earth during the trubulation, however God will protect her, same as he did the Iserolites during the plagues before they came out of Egypt. hope that helps

Matt 24:29-31 are talking about tribulational saints who have different promises than us.

church was not known during the Law period because Gentiles where scum of the earth with no promise, no hope, no faith eph 2:10-11

144,000 are the only ones who during the wrath of God excape during the tribulation but not from the wrath of the unbelievers

A Brethren IN CHRIST · Mar 22, 2005

A Brethren IN CHRIST said:
1 cor 15:51-54 mystery of the rapture of the church

OT saints did not know of the church or the rapture.....

you will find nothing in the OT about this...

about the church they new nothing why eph 2:10-11

but they did have prophesy of there King suffering thus they did not understand

Zadok7000 · Mar 22, 2005

A Brethren IN CHRIST said:
about the church they new nothing why eph 2:10-11

but they did have prophesy of there King suffering thus they did not understand

Sorry, but what does this prove about about the rapture not being in the Old Testament? The conception, birth, life, betyal, crucifixion, and resurrection of JESUS were all foretold in the Old Testament. It was written that "all who call upon the name of the LORD shall be saved" in the book of Joel. THERE IS NOTHING NEW UNDER THE SUN. JESUS CHRIST is the same yesterday, today, and forever. HE is the Beginning and the End. If a prophecy is not in the Old as well as the New Testaments, it is not from GOD but from man. The pre-trib rapture is one of those man-made doctrines.

A Brethren IN CHRIST · Mar 23, 2005

Zadok7000 said:
If a prophecy is not in the Old as well as the New Testaments, it is not from GOD but from man. The pre-trib rapture is one of those man-made doctrines.

ever here of the mysteries?

1 cor 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world[ages] unto our glory: 8 which none of the princes of the world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of Glory

Mystery of the Gospel....romans 16:25-26
Mystery of the dispensation of grace from God eph 3:2,9
Mystery of Christ in you the hope of glory colossian 1:27
Mystery of the Christ eph 3:36
Mystery of the God even the Father and the Christ colossians 2:2-3
Mystery of Godliness 1 tim 3:16
Mystery of thee Faith 1 tim 3:9
Mystery of Israel's hardness romans 11:25
Mystery of the Rapture of the Church 1 cor 15:51-54
Mystery of the Christ and His bride eph 5:32
Mystery of lawlessness 2 thes 2:2-7
mystery of God's will eph 1:9-10

yeah the jews Knew all the Paul's mystery's.....

Matt 13:11 show keeping things from them yet talking openly about them

Colossians 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from thee ages[spirit beings] and from generations[humans], but now is made manifest to His saints.[/b]

Zadok7000 · Mar 23, 2005

HE has foretold us all things! Just because the people could not fully comprehend it at the time (see Daniel) doesn't mean it's not there. There are NO "mysteries" to Christians. That's what the book of Revelation is all about - nothing is hidden anymore for those with eyes to see and ears to hear. So where is the Old Testament witness to a pre-trib rapture??? It's not there. Therefore, it's not true.

A Brethren IN CHRIST · Mar 23, 2005

Zadok7000 said:
HE has foretold us all things! Just because the people could not fully comprehend it at the time (see Daniel) doesn't mean it's not there. There are NO "mysteries" to Christians. That's what the book of Revelation is all about - nothing is hidden anymore for those with eyes to see and ears to hear. So where is the Old Testament witness to a pre-trib rapture??? It's not there. Therefore, it's not true.

mystery where to OT believers now that we are in the NT they are not mystery but only to those who do not believe

Zadok7000 · Mar 23, 2005

A Brethren IN CHRIST said:
mystery where to OT believers now that we are in the NT they are not mystery but only to those who do not believe

So again, I ask you to please show me where in the Old Testament can we Christians look today to find the prophecy of the pre-trib rapture? It has to be there because all the rest of them are. HE knows the end from the beginning, HE is the beginning and the end - did HE forget to include it?

AVBunyan · Mar 23, 2005

FreeinChrist said:
I am wondering why you write this, though:

"b. The church of Ephesians, which is his body, cannot be found in Revelation - not even in the first three chapters like I used to think."

Can you explain?

Great question! I will seek to answer soon - sorry I haven't answered sooner but I forgot I started the thread and just checked it

Will work on an answer the next day or so. Stay tuned!

God bless :wave:

MbiaJc · Mar 23, 2005

[

QUOTE=A Brethren IN CHRIST][

QUOTE]
Matt 24:29-31 are talking about tribulational saints who have different promises than us.
[/QUOTE]

Not so! You will need to come up with something different than that. Let me spell it out for you. Matt. 24:29 plainly says that Jesus will not come back till after the tribulation, after the sun darken, moon no light, stars fall, etc. There is no rapture of the Church as it is taught these days. Some woman claining to be a prophet came up with the rapture as taught today. Paul makes it clear in 1Cor. 15 the resurrection takes place at the 7th trumpet, no sooner, no later.

church was not known during the Law period because Gentiles where scum of the earth with no promise, no hope, no faith eph 2:10-11

Not so! Gentiles could join the Israelite religion. They called them prostolites.
Also God is made known by His handeywork Rom. 1:19-20.

You are right in that the Prophets and Priest knew nothing of the Church, however the Church has been around every since the first Iserolite was saved.

The Church is now and always has been Spiritual Iserael.

144,000 are the only ones who during the wrath of God excape during the tribulation but not from the wrath of the unbelievers

Not so! Read the verses that follow the sealing. There is a multude that no man could number from all notions and tongues.

A Brethren IN CHRIST · Mar 24, 2005

Zadok7000 said:
So again, I ask you to please show me where in the Old Testament can we Christians look today to find the prophecy of the pre-trib rapture? It has to be there because all the rest of them are. HE knows the end from the beginning, HE is the beginning and the end - did HE forget to include it?

find a OT verse that talks about gentiles being equal with Jews.

Can't eph 2:10-11

Gal 3:28 this is NT only info

A Brethren IN CHRIST · Mar 24, 2005

MbiaJc said:
Not so! Gentiles could join the Israelite religion. They called them prostolites.

You are right in that the Prophets and Priest knew nothing of the Church, however the Church has been around every since the first Isralite was saved.

The Church is now and always has been Spiritual Israel.
.

when a gentile was saved in the OT they could never have the same promises as Jews they were mice picking up the scraps

which is better than the other options

yet now according to Gal 3:28 we are equal

eph 2 would help you with these differences

In revelations 3:9 Behold Iwill make them of a synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews and are not, but do lie;

interesting in 1 cor 10:32 give none offense, neither to the Jew, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God...no nationality

Andyman_1970 · Mar 24, 2005

I agree with Zadok that the rapture is an un-Biblical man made doctrine:

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

This scenario is created by Paul, no where do we see Jesus predict such an event. The Gospel passages alluding to the Son of Man coming on clouds (Mark 13:26, 14:62) are about Jesus vindication His coming to heaven from earth. The parables about a returning King or Master (Luke 19:11-27) were originally about God returning to Jerusalem (as He was not there in the 2nd Temple period), not about Jesus returning to earth.

I dont deny the Ascension of Jesus or the Second Coming I believe some future event will result in the personal presence of Jesus within Gods New Creation.

Pauls description of the rapture in Thessalonians is a brightly colored version of what he says in 1 Cor. 15:51-54 and Philippians 3:20-21. Paul borrows imagery from Biblical and political sources. He echoes the story of Moses coming down the mountain with the Torah, a loud trumpet sounds and a loud voice is heard.

Second he echoes Daniel 7, in which the people of the saints of the Most High (that is, the one like a Son of Man) are vindicated over their pagan enemy by being raised up to sit with God in glory. This metaphor was used to describe Jesus in the Gospels and now Paul applies it to Christians who are suffering persecution.

Third, Paul conjures up images of an emperor visiting a colony. The citizens go out to meet him in the open country and escort him into the city. Pauls image of the people meeting the Lord in the air should be read with the assumption that the people will immediately turn around and lead the Lord back to the newly remade world.

A Brethren IN CHRIST · Mar 24, 2005

Andyman_1970 said:
I agree with Zadok that the rapture is an un-Biblical man made doctrine:

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

This scenario is created by Paul, no where do we see Jesus predict such an event. The Gospel passages alluding to the Son of Man coming on clouds (Mark 13:26, 14:62) are about Jesus vindication His coming to heaven from earth. The parables about a returning King or Master (Luke 19:11-27) were originally about God returning to Jerusalem (as He was not there in the 2nd Temple period), not about Jesus returning to earth.

I dont deny the Ascension of Jesus or the Second Coming I believe some future event will result in the personal presence of Jesus within Gods New Creation.

Pauls description of the rapture in Thessalonians is a brightly colored version of what he says in 1 Cor. 15:51-54 and Philippians 3:20-21. Paul borrows imagery from Biblical and political sources. He echoes the story of Moses coming down the mountain with the Torah, a loud trumpet sounds and a loud voice is heard.

Second he echoes Daniel 7, in which the people of the saints of the Most High (that is, the one like a Son of Man) are vindicated over their pagan enemy by being raised up to sit with God in glory. This metaphor was used to describe Jesus in the Gospels and now Paul applies it to Christians who are suffering persecution.

Third, Paul conjures up images of an emperor visiting a colony. The citizens go out to meet him in the open country and escort him into the city. Pauls image of the people meeting the Lord in the air should be read with the assumption that the people will immediately turn around and lead the Lord back to the newly remade world.

notice in 1 thes this is God trumpet.....

in rev these are angels trumpets

Zadok7000 · Mar 24, 2005

A Brethren IN CHRIST said:
notice in 1 thes this is God trumpet.....

in rev these are angels trumpets

Just like Josh. 6 there were 7 trumpets (OT), in Revelation there are 7 trumpets (NT). The 7th (last) Trumpet is called "the trump of God" because as Rev. 10:7 says "the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets". But it also says in 1Thes. 4:16 "with the voice of the archangel". And also as Rev. 11:15 says, "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever." See also Matt. 24:31 which describes the 7th trumpet this way: "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

The 7th trumpet is HIS Return to throw satan into the pit for 1,000 years so we can reign with HIM.

Andyman_1970 · Mar 24, 2005

Zadok7000 said:
Just like Josh. 6 there were 7 trumpets (OT), in Revelation there are 7 trumpets (NT). The 7th (last) Trumpet is called "the trump of God" because as Rev. 10:7 says "the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets". But it also says in 1Thes. 4:16 "with the voice of the archangel". And also as Rev. 11:15 says, "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever." See also Matt. 24:31 which describes the 7th trumpet this way: "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

The 7th trumpet is HIS Return to throw satan into the pit for 1,000 years so we can reign with HIM.

It's amazing what you can see when you put the Scriptures in their full (OT & NT) context.

Zadok7000 · Mar 24, 2005

A Brethren IN CHRIST said:
find a OT verse that talks about gentiles being equal with Jews.

Can't eph 2:10-11

Gal 3:28 this is NT only info

Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered

Not equal?! Are you saying HE is, or ever was, a respector of persons???
(And last time I checked, Jews (Judah) were just one of the tribes of Israel.)

Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all

Rom. 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Eph. 6:9 And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.

Col. 3:25 But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

James 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.
2 For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment;
3 And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:
4 Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?
5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
6 But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?
7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?
8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

1Pet. 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every mans work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

:preach:

A Brethren IN CHRIST · Mar 25, 2005

Zadok7000 said:
Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered

gen 6:5b man every imagination of the thoughts of his heart waS ONLY EVIL CONTINUALLY .......

UNRIGHTEOUS MAN GOING TO SEEK A RIGHTEOUS GOD ....?

Not equal?! Are you saying HE is, or ever was, a respector of persons???
(And last time I checked, Jews (Judah) were just one of the tribes of Israel.)

Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all

Rom. 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Eph. 6:9 And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.

Col. 3:25 But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

James 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.
2 For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment;
3 And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:
4 Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?
5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
6 But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?
7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?
8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

1Pet. 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every mans work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

ALL YOUR OTHER VERSES ...are NT verses the Jews did not know them....

Ebb · Mar 25, 2005

A Brethren IN CHRIST said:
find a OT verse that talks about gentiles being equal with Jews.

Can't eph 2:10-11

Gal 3:28 this is NT only info

Caleb was a Gentile, a "Kenezite".

(You can do a search on the Jewish-written article "Caleb the Goy")

24 But my servant Caleb, because he had another spirit with him, and hath followed me fully, him will I bring into the land whereinto he went; and his seed shall possess it. Numbers 14:24

65For the LORD had said of them, They shall surely die in the wilderness. And there was not left a man of them, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun. Numbers 26:65

11Surely none of the men that came up out of Egypt, from twenty years old and upward, shall see the land which I sware unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob; because they have not wholly followed me: 12Save Caleb the son of Jephunneh the Kenezite, and Joshua the son of Nun: for they have wholly followed the LORD. Numbers 32:11-12

13And Joshua blessed him, and gave unto Caleb the son of Jephunneh Hebron for an inheritance. 14Hebron therefore became the inheritance of Caleb the son of Jephunneh the Kenezite unto this day, because that he wholly followed the LORD God of Israel. Joshua 14:12-13

Other Gentiles given equal footing in the Old Testament include Rahab , Ruth, David's mighty men (I Chronicles 11:10-47), and the Gentile widow of Zarephath in the time of Elijah (I Kings 17:7-24).

Among David's mighty men, Matthew Henry wrote in his commentary:

VI. One of these worthies is said to be an Ammonite (v. 39), another a Moabite (v. 46), and yet the law was that an Ammonite and a Moabite should not enter into the congregation of the Lord, Deut. xxiii. 3. These, it is likely, had approved themselves so hearty for the interest of Israel that in their case it was thought fit to dispense with that law, and the rather because it was an indication that the Son of David would have worthies among the Gentiles: with him there is neither Greek nor Jew.

Zadok7000 · Mar 25, 2005

A Brethren IN CHRIST said:
gen 6:5b man every imagination of the thoughts of his heart waS ONLY EVIL CONTINUALLY .......[/b]

UNRIGHTEOUS MAN GOING TO SEEK A RIGHTEOUS GOD ....?

ALL YOUR OTHER VERSES ...are NT verses the Jews did not know them....

What does every man (including Israel) being a sinner have to do with "all who call upon the name of the LORD"?? You told me to show where gentiles were "equal" to Israel (again, "Jews" are only 1 of the 12 tribes) in the OT and I did. I also showed you (via the NT) that HE was never biased for or against anyone - all are equal to HIM and always were. HE is perfectly fair.

I Thess.4 and I Cor. 15 are not Rapture Verses

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