Genesis 6/the Sons of God/and the Nephilim

Ebed-Yahweh said:

So then, here’s my literal translation:

The Nephilim (fallen ones) were in the earth (land, not necessarily the entire world) in the days of them and also after then/that which came the sons of Elohim (God) to the daughters of Adam (man) and gave birth/had children/became the fathers of them, the Gibborim (mighty/mighty heroes) who were of old/ancient times, men of the name.

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You guys still miss my point. Even in your translation of 6:4 it says only that the Nephilim were wicked and they came from a sexual relations between angels (even your version does not specify which angels) and women. It merely states the Nephilim were wicked and who their parents were.

It does not say all such unions produced only wicked men. Nor does it say all wicked men were the product of only such unions. Nor does it say these were only wicked angels doing this. So again while I can agree it says the Nephilim are wicked, why must we accept something it does not say? Using your "literal" understanding and only Chapter 6, please show me where it says;
1) That only fallen angels were doing this.
2) That God was angry with the angels for doing this.
3) That ALL wicked men come ONLY from the result of such unions between angels and women.
4) That angry with "ALL MEN" and wanting to destroy "ALL MEN" really meant only these wicked, evil, godless, "demon-seed" men and not really "ALL MEN".
5) That God then changes His mind again and rather than wanting to destroy ALL these wicked demon-seed men, He allows one to get away. Since you say He allows one to escape on the Arc, where does He change His mind about destroying that one?

DrBubbaLove said:

You guys still miss my point. Even in your translation of 6:4 it says only that the Nephilim were wicked and they came from a sexual relations between angels (even your version does not specify which angels) and women. It merely states the Nephilim were wicked and who their parents were.

It does not say all such unions produced only wicked men. Nor does it say all wicked men were the product of only such unions. Nor does it say these were only wicked angels doing this. So again while I can agree it says the Nephilim are wicked, why must we accept something it does not say? Using your "literal" understanding and only Chapter 6, please show me where it says;
1) That only fallen angels were doing this.
2) That God was angry with the angels for doing this.
3) That ALL wicked men come ONLY from the result of such unions between angels and women.
4) That angry with "ALL MEN" and wanting to destroy "ALL MEN" really meant only these wicked, evil, godless, "demon-seed" men and not really "ALL MEN".
5) That God then changes His mind again and rather than wanting to destroy ALL these wicked demon-seed men, He allows one to get away. Since you say He allows one to escape on the Arc, where does He change His mind about destroying that one?

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DrBL, the study I'm currently doing on the Gibborim is attempting to discover whether or not any of the offspring of the sons of Elohim and the daughters of Adam could have chosen good instead of evil. I'm leaning toward a "yes" answer at this point, but I have more praying and studying to do.

The Mighty Gibborim

1368 gibbor (spelled gimel-bet-waw-resh), (pl. gibborim, spelled gimel-bet-waw-resh-yod-mem), a. mighty one, mighty warrior, special guard:- mighty [133], strong [5], valiant [5], men [4], mighty ones [3], mighties [2], champion [1], chief [1], excel [1], giant [1], man [1], mightiest [1], strongest [1]
1369 geburah - power, strength, might, achievement:-might, strength, power, might acts, force, mastery, mighty, mighty power,
1370 geburah (Aramaic) - power, might, strength
1376 gebir - lord, master
1377 gebirah - mistress (female lord); queen
1396 gabar - to rise, flood; to be greater, stronger; to prevail, overwhelm; to strengthen; to caue to triumph, confirm (a covenant); to show oneself a victorrevailed, prevail, great, strengthen, confirm, exceeded, mighty, put to more, stronger, valiant
1397 geber - (strong, young) man:-man, men, man's, mighty, every one, man child, mighty Dan 8:15
1398 geber - Geber, "[strong young] man"
1399 gebar - (mighty) man
1400 gebar - (mighty) man:-mighty men
1401 gibbar (Aramaic) - strong man, mighty one
1402 gibbar - Gibbar, "[young vigorous] man, hero"

1403 s'vw;g gabriel - Gabriel, "strong man of God [El]"
1404 mhwg geberet - queen:-mistress, lady

Arabic jabbar - giant; colossus; tyrant, oppressor; almighty, omnipotent (God); gigantic, giant, colossal, huge; mighty, powerful

(Italicized words signify NIH - 'Not in Hebrew', word does not occur in orignial language)

KJV Genesis 10:8-9
8 And Cush begat Nimrod: he began to be a mighty one (gibbor) in the earth ('eretz).
9 He was a mighty (gibbor) hunter before the LORD (YHWH, Yahweh): wherefore it is said, Even as Nimrod the mighty (gibbor) hunter before the LORD (Yahweh).

We learn in Genesis 10:10 that Babel/Babylon was a part of Nimrod’s kingdom and some say he was the builder of this city. The writings of Flavius Josephus (1st century Jewish historian) confirm that Nimrod was not a righteous man.

KJV Deuteronomy 10:17 For the LORD (Yahweh) your God (Elohim) is God (Elohim) of gods (elohim), and Lord (Adon) of Lords (adon), a great (gadol) God (El), a mighty (gibbor), and a terrible (yare‘), which regardeth (nasa') not persons (paneh), nor taketh (laqakh) reward (shokhad):

KJV Joshua 1:14 Your wives, your little ones, and your cattle, shall remain in the land which Moses gave you on this side Jordan; but ye shall pass before your brethren armed, all the mighty men (gibbori) of valour, and help them;

KJV Joshua 6:2 And the LORD (Yahweh) said unto Joshua, See, I have given into thine hand Jericho, and the king thereof, and the mighty men (gibbor) of valour.

KJV Joshua 8:3 So Joshua arose, and all the people of war, to go up against Ai: and Joshua chose out thirty thousand mighty men (gibbor) of valour, and sent them away by night.

KJV Joshua 10:2 That they feared greatly, because Gibeon was a great city, as one of the royal cities, and because it was greater than Ai, and all the men ('ish) thereof were mighty (gibbor).

KJV Joshua 10:7 So Joshua ascended from Gilgal, he, and all the people of war with him, and all the mighty men (gibbor) of valour.

KJV Judges 5:13 Then he made him that remaineth have dominion over the nobles among the people: the LORD (Yahweh) made me have dominion over the mighty (gibbor).

KJV Judges 5:23 Curse ye Meroz, said the angel of the LORD (Yahweh), curse ye bitterly the inhabitants thereof; because they came not to the help of the LORD (Yahweh), to the help of the LORD (Yahweh) against the mighty (gibbor).

KJV Judges 6:12 And the angel of the LORD (Yahweh) appeared unto him, and said unto him, The LORD (Yahweh) is with thee, thou mighty man (gibbor) of valour.

KJV Judges 11:1 Now Jephthah the Gileadite was a mighty man (gibbor) of valour, and he was the son of an harlot: and Gilead begat Jephthah.

KJV Ruth 2:1 And Naomi had a kinsman of her husband's, a mighty (gibbor) man ('ish) of wealth, of the family of Elimelech; and his name was Boaz.

KJV 1 Samuel 2:4 The bows of the mighty men (gibbor) are broken, and they that stumbled are girded with strength.

KJV 1 Samuel 9:1 Now there was a man ('ish) of Benjamin, whose name was Kish, the son of Abiel, the son of Zeror, the son of Bechorath, the son of Aphiah, a Benjamite, a mighty man (gibbor) of power.

KJV 1 Samuel 14:52 And there was sore war against the Philistines all the days of Saul: and when Saul saw any strong (gibbor) man ('ish), or any valiant 2428 man (ben), he took him unto him.

KJV 1 Samuel 16:18 Then answered one of the servants, and said, Behold, I have seen a son of Jesse the Bethlehemite, that is cunning in playing, and a mighty (gibbor) valiant man, and a man ('ish) of war, and prudent in matters, and a comely person, and the LORD (Yahweh) is with him.

KJV 1 Samuel 17:51 Therefore David ran, and stood upon the Philistine, and took his sword, and drew it out of the sheath thereof, and slew him, and cut off his head therewith. And when the Philistines saw their champion (gibbor) was dead, they fled.

KJV 2 Samuel 1:19-27
19 The beauty of Israel is slain upon thy high places: how are the mighty (gibbor) fallen!
20 Tell it not in Gath, publish it not in the streets of Askelon; lest the daughters of the Philistines rejoice, lest the daughters of the uncircumcised triumph.
21 Ye mountains of Gilboa, let there be no dew, neither let there be rain, upon you, nor fields of offerings: for there the shield of the mighty is vilely cast away, the shield of Saul, as though he had not been anointed with oil.
22 From the blood of the slain, from the fat of the mighty (gibbor), the bow of Jonathan turned not back, and the sword of Saul returned not empty.
23 Saul and Jonathan were lovely and pleasant in their lives, and in their death they were not divided: they were swifter than eagles, they were stronger than lions.
24 Ye daughters of Israel, weep over Saul, who clothed you in scarlet, with other delights, who put on ornaments of gold upon your apparel.
25 How are the mighty (gibbor)fallen in the midst of the battle! O Jonathan, thou wast slain in thine high places.
26 I am distressed for thee, my brother Jonathan: very pleasant hast thou been unto me: thy love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women.
27 How are the mighty (gibbor) fallen, and the weapons of war perished!

KJV 2 Samuel 10:7 And when David heard of it, he sent Joab, and all the host of the mighty men (gibbor).

KJV 2 Samuel 16:6 And he cast stones at David, and at all the servants of king David: and all the people and all the mighty men (gibbor) were on his right hand and on his left.

KJV 2 Samuel 17:8-10
8 For, said Hushai, thou knowest thy father and his men ('ish), that they be mighty men (gibbor), and they be chafed in their minds, as a bear robbed of her whelps in the field: and thy father is a man ('ish) of war, and will not lodge with the people.
9 Behold, he is hid now in some pit, or in some other place: and it will come to pass, when some of them be overthrown at the first, that whosoever heareth it will say, There is a slaughter among the people that follow Absalom.
10 And he also that is valiant, whose heart is as the heart of a lion, shall utterly melt: for all Israel knoweth that thy father is a mighty man (gibbor), and they which be with him are valiant men (ben).

KJV 2 Samuel 20:7 And there went out after him Joab's men ('ish), and the Cherethites, and the Pelethites, and all the mighty men (gibbor): and they went out of Jerusalem, to pursue after Sheba the son of Bichri.

KJV 2 Samuel 22:26 With the merciful thou wilt shew thyself merciful, and with the upright man (gibbor) thou wilt shew thyself upright.

KJV 2 Samuel 23:8-9
8 These be the names of the mighty men (gibbor) whom David had: The Tachmonite that sat in the seat, chief among the captains; the same was Adino the Eznite: he lift up his spear against eight hundred, whom he slew at one time.
9 And after him was Eleazar the son of Dodo the Ahohite, one of the three mighty men (gibbor) with David, when they defied the Philistines that were there gathered together to battle, and the men ('ish) of Israel were gone away:

KJV 2 Samuel 23:16-17
16 And the three mighty men (gibbor) brake through the host of the Philistines, and drew water out of the well of Bethlehem, that was by the gate, and took it, and brought it to David: nevertheless he would not drink thereof, but poured it out unto the Lord.
17 And he said, Be it far from me, O Lord, that I should do this: is not this the blood of the men ('ish) that went in jeopardy of their lives? therefore he would not drink it. These things did these three mighty men (gibbor).

KJV 2 Samuel 23:22 These things did Benaiah the son of Jehoiada, and had the name among three mighty men (gibbor).

KJV 1 Kings 1:8-10
8 But Zadok the priest, and Benaiah the son of Jehoiada, and Nathan the prophet, and Shimei, and Rei, and the mighty men (gibbor) which belonged to David, were not with Adonijah.
9 And Adonijah slew sheep and oxen and fat cattle by the stone of Zoheleth, which is by Enrogel, and called all his brethren the king's sons, and all the men ('ish) of Judah the king's servants:
10 But Nathan the prophet, and Benaiah, and the mighty men (gibbor), and Solomon his brother, he called not.

KJV 1 Kings 11:28 And the man Jeroboam was a mighty man (gibbor) of valour: and Solomon seeing the young man 5288 that he was industrious, he made him ruler over all the charge of the house of Joseph.

KJV 2 Kings 5:1 Now Naaman, captain of the host of the king of Syria, was a great man ('ish) with his master, and honourable, because by him the Lord had given deliverance unto Syria: he was also a mighty man (gibbor) in valour, but he was a leper.

KJV 2 Kings 15:20 And Menahem exacted the money of Israel, even of all the mighty men (gibbor) of wealth, of each man fifty shekels of silver, to give to the king of Assyria. So the king of Assyria turned back, and stayed not there in the land.

KJV 2 Kings 24:14-16 And he carried away all Jerusalem, and all the princes, and all the mighty men (gibbor) of valour, even ten thousand captives, and all the craftsmen and smiths: none remained, save the poorest sort of the people of the land.
15 And he carried away Jehoiachin to Babylon, and the king's mother, and the king's wives, and his officers, and the mighty of the land, those carried he into captivity from Jerusalem to Babylon.
16 And all the men ('ish) of might (chayil), even seven thousand, and craftsmen and smiths a thousand, all that were strong (gibbor) and apt for war, even them the king of Babylon brought captive to Babylon.

I'm skipping 1 and 2 Chronicles as they mostly repeart information from 2 Samuel and 1&2 Kings.

KJV Ezra 7:28 And hath extended mercy unto me before the king, and his counsellers, and before all the king's mighty (gibbor) princes. And I was strengthened as the hand of the LORD (Yahweh) my God was upon me, and I gathered together out of Israel chief men to go up with me.

KJV Nehemiah 3:16 After him repaired Nehemiah the son of Azbuk, the ruler of the half part of Bethzur, unto the place over against the sepulchres of David, and to the pool that was made, and unto the house of the mighty (gibbor).

KJV Nehemiah 9:32 Now therefore, our God, the great, the mighty (gibbor), and the terrible God, who keepest covenant and mercy, let not all the trouble seem little before thee, that hath come upon us, on our kings, on our princes, and on our priests, and on our prophets, and on our fathers, and on all thy people, since the time of the kings of Assyria unto this day.

KJV Nehemiah 11:14 And their brethren, mighty men (gibbor) of valour, an hundred twenty and eight: and their overseer was Zabdiel, the son of one of the great men.

KJV Job 16:14 He breaketh me with breach upon breach, he runneth upon me like a giant (gibbor).

KJV Psalms 19:5 Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man (gibbor) to run a race.

The two verses quoted above possibly imply that the Gibborim were also faster than normal men.

KJV Psalms 24:8 Who is this King of glory? The LORD (Yahweh) strong and mighty (gibbor), the LORD (Yahweh) mighty (gibbor) in battle.

KJV Psalms 33:16 There is no king saved by the multitude of an host: a mighty man (gibbor) is not delivered by much strength.

KJV Psalms 45:3 Gird thy sword upon thy thigh, O most mighty (gibbor), with thy glory and thy majesty.

KJV Psalms 52:1 Why boastest thou thyself in mischief, O mighty man (gibbor)? the goodness of God endureth continually.

KJV Psalms 78:65 Then the LORD (Yahweh) awaked as one out of sleep, and like a mighty man (gibbor) that shouteth by reason of wine.

KJV Psalms 89:19 Then thou spakest in vision to thy holy one, and saidst, I have laid help upon one that is mighty (gibbor); I have exalted one chosen out of the people.

KJV Psalms 112:2 His seed shall be mighty (gibbor) upon earth: the generation of the upright shall be blessed.

KJV Psalms 120:4 Sharp arrows of the mighty (gibbor), with coals of juniper.

KJV Psalms 127:4 As arrows are in the hand of a mighty man (gibbor); so are children of the youth.

KJV Psalms 103:20 Bless the LORD (Yahweh), ye his angels, that excel (gibbor) in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of his word.

KJV Proverbs 16:32 He that is slow to anger is better than the mighty (gibbor); and he that ruleth his spirit than he that taketh a city.

KJV Proverbs 21:22 A wise man scaleth the city of the mighty (gibbor), and casteth down the strength of the confidence thereof.

KJV Proverbs 30:30 A lion which is strongest (gibbor) among beasts, and turneth not away for any;

KJV Ecclesiastes 9:11 I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong (gibbor), neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.

KJV Song of Solomon 3:7-8
7 Behold his bed, which is Solomon's; threescore valiant men (gibbor) are about it, of the valiant (gibbor) of Israel.
8 They all hold swords, being expert in war: every man ('ish) hath his sword upon his thigh because of fear in the night.

KJV Song of Solomon 4:4 Thy neck is like the tower of David builded for an armoury, whereon there hang a thousand bucklers, all shields of mighty men (gibbor).

Ebed-Yahweh,

The storage quota in your PM's is full, can you clear it?

Thanks

Tavita

KJV Isaiah 3:2 The mighty man (gibbor), and the man ('ish) of war, the judge, and the prophet, and the prudent, and the ancient,

KJV Isaiah 5:22 Woe unto them that are mighty (gibbor) to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink:

KJV Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty (gibbor) God, the everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

KJV Isaiah 10:21 The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty (gibbor) God.

KJV Isaiah 13:3 I have commanded my sanctified ones, I have also called my mighty ones (gibbor) for mine anger, even them that rejoice in my highness.

KJV Isaiah 21:17 And the residue of the number of archers, the mighty men (gibbor) of the children of Kedar, shall be diminished: for the LORD (Yahweh) God of Israel hath spoken it.

KJV Isaiah 42:13 The LORD (Yahweh) shall go forth as a mighty man (gibbor), he shall stir up jealousy like a man ('ish) of war: he shall cry, yea, roar; he shall prevail against his enemies.

KJV Isaiah 49:24-25
24 Shall the prey be taken from the mighty (gibbor), or the lawful captive delivered?
25 But thus saith the LORD (Yahweh), Even the captives of the mighty (gibbor) shall be taken away, and the prey of the terrible shall be delivered: for I will contend with him that contendeth with thee, and I will save thy children.


KJV Jeremiah 5:16 Their quiver is as an open sepulchre, they are all mighty men (gibbor).

KJV Jeremiah 9:23 Thus saith the LORD (Yahweh), Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man (gibbor) glory in his might (geburah), let not the rich man glory in his riches:

KJV Jeremiah 14:9 Why shouldest thou be as a man ('ish) astonied, as a mighty man (gibbor) that cannot save? yet thou, O LORD (Yahweh), art in the midst of us, and we are called by thy name; leave us not.

KJV Jeremiah 20:11 But the LORD (Yahweh) is with me as a mighty (gibbor) terrible one: therefore my persecutors shall stumble, and they shall not prevail: they shall be greatly ashamed; for they shall not prosper: their everlasting confusion shall never be forgotten.

KJV Jeremiah 26:21 And when Jehoiakim the king, with all his mighty men (gibbor) and all the princes, heard his words, the king sought to put him to death: but when Urijah heard it, he was afraid, and fled, and went into Egypt;

KJV Jeremiah 32:18 Thou shewest lovingkindness unto thousands, and recompensest the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after them: the Great, the Mighty (gibbor) God, the LORD (Yahweh) of hosts, is his name,


KJV Jeremiah 46:5-12
5 Wherefore have I seen them dismayed and turned away back? and their mighty ones (gibbor) are beaten down, and are fled apace, and look not back: for fear was round about, saith the LORD (Yahweh) .
6 Let not the swift flee away, nor the mighty man (gibbor) escape; they shall stumble, and fall toward the north by the river Euphrates.
7 Who is this that cometh up as a flood, whose waters are moved as the rivers?
8 Egypt riseth up like a flood, and his waters are moved like the rivers; and he saith, I will go up, and will cover the earth; I will destroy the city and the inhabitants thereof.
9 Come up, ye horses; and rage, ye chariots; and let the mighty men (gibbor) come forth; the Ethiopians and the Libyans, that handle the shield; and the Lydians, that handle and bend the bow.
10 For this is the day of the Lord GOD (Yahweh) of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord GOD (Yahweh) of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates.
11 Go up into Gilead, and take balm, O virgin, the daughter of Egypt: in vain shalt thou use many medicines; for thou shalt not be cured.
12 The nations have heard of thy shame, and thy cry hath filled the land: for the mighty man (gibbor) hath stumbled against the mighty, and they are fallen both together.

KJV Jeremiah 48:14 How say ye, We are mighty (gibbor) and strong men ('ish) for the war?

KJV Jeremiah 48:41 Kerioth is taken, and the strong holds are surprised, and the mighty men's (gibbor) hearts in Moab at that day shall be as the heart of a woman in her pangs.

KJV Jeremiah 49:22 Behold, he shall come up and fly as the eagle, and spread his wings over Bozrah: and at that day shall the heart of the mighty men (gibbor) of Edom be as the heart of a woman in her pangs.

KJV Jeremiah 50:9 For, lo, I will raise and cause to come up against Babylon an assembly of great nations from the north country: and they shall set themselves in array against her; from thence she shall be taken: their arrows shall be as of a mighty (gibbor) expert man; none shall return in vain.

KJV Jeremiah 50:36 A sword is upon the liars; and they shall dote: a sword is upon her mighty men (gibbor); and they shall be dismayed.

KJV Jeremiah 51:30 The mighty men (gibbor) of Babylon have forborn to fight, they have remained in their holds: their might (geburah) hath failed; they became as women: they have burned her dwellingplaces; her bars are broken.

KJV Jeremiah 51:56-57
56 Because the spoiler is come upon her, even upon Babylon, and her mighty men (gibbor) are taken, every one of their bows is broken: for the Lord God of recompences shall surely requite.
57 And I will make drunk her princes, and her wise men, her captains, and her rulers, and her mighty men (gibbor): and they shall sleep a perpetual sleep, and not wake, saith the King, whose name is the LORD (Yahweh) of hosts.

KJV Ezekiel 32:12 By the swords of the mighty (gibbor) will I cause thy multitude to fall, the terrible of the nations, all of them: and they shall spoil the pomp of Egypt, and all the multitude thereof shall be destroyed.

KJV Ezekiel 32:21 The strong among the mighty (gibbor) shall speak to him out of the midst of hell with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.

KJV Ezekiel 32:27 And they shall not lie with the mighty (gibbor) that are fallen of the uncircumcised, which are gone down to hell with their weapons of war: and they have laid their swords under their heads, but their iniquities shall be upon their bones, though they were the terror of the mighty (gibbor) in the land of the living.

KJV Ezekiel 39:18-20
18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty (gibbor), and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
20 Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men (gibbor), and with all men ('ish) of war, saith the Lord GOD (Yahweh).

KJV Daniel 11:3 And a mighty (gibbor) king shall stand up, that shall rule with great dominion, and do according to his will.

KJV Hosea 10:13 Ye have plowed wickedness, ye have reaped iniquity; ye have eaten the fruit of lies: because thou didst trust in thy way, in the multitude of thy mighty men (gibbor).

KJV Joel 2:7-8 They shall run like mighty men (gibbor); they shall climb the wall like men ('ish) of war; and they shall march every one ('ish) on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks:
8 Neither shall one ('ish) thrust another; they shall walk every one (geber) in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded.

KJV Joel 3:9-11
9 Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; prepare war, wake up the mighty men (gibbor), let all the men ('ish) of war draw near; let them come up:
10 Beat your plowshares into swords and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong (gibbor).
11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen (goyim), and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones (gibbor) to come down, O LORD (Yahweh).

KJV Amos 2:14-16
14 Therefore the flight shall perish from the swift, and the strong shall not strengthen his force, neither shall the mighty (gibbor) deliver himself:
15 Neither shall he stand that handleth the bow; and he that is swift of foot shall not deliver himself: neither shall he that rideth the horse deliver himself.
16 And he that is courageous among the mighty (gibbor) shall flee away naked in that day, saith the LORD (Yahweh).

KJV Obadiah 1:9 And thy mighty men (gibbor), O Teman, shall be dismayed, to the end that every one of the mount of Esau may be cut off by slaughter.

KJV Nahum 2:3 The shield of his mighty men (gibbor) is made red, the valiant men ('ish) are in scarlet: the chariots shall be with flaming torches in the day of his preparation, and the fir trees shall be terribly shaken.

KJV Zephaniah 1:14 The great day of the LORD (Yahweh) is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD (Yahweh): the mighty man (gibbor) shall cry there bitterly.

KJV Zephaniah 3:17 The LORD (Yahweh) thy God in the midst of thee is mighty (gibbor); he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing.

KJV Zechariah 9:13 When I have bent Judah for me, filled the bow with Ephraim, and raised up thy sons, O Zion, against thy sons, O Greece, and made thee as the sword of a mighty man (gibbor).

KJV Zechariah 10:5-7
5 And they shall be as mighty men (gibbor), which tread down their enemies in the mire of the streets in the battle: and they shall fight, because the LORD (Yahweh) is with them, and the riders on horses shall be confounded.
6 And I will strengthen the house of Judah, and I will save the house of Joseph, and I will bring them again to place them; for I have mercy upon them: and they shall be as though I had not cast them off: for I am the LORD (Yahweh) their God, and will hear them.
7 And they of Ephraim shall be like a mighty man (gibbor), and their heart shall rejoice as through wine: yea, their children shall see it, and be glad; their heart shall rejoice in the LORD (Yahweh).


Okay, I believe that's all the verses in the Old Testament (except for those from 1&2 Chronichles) which mention or use the word gibbor/gibborim. Now, maybe you can help me figure out whether or not this means some humans are descended from offsrping of angels who chose light instead of darkness.

Keep in mind that there are other words in Hebrew which can be translated as strength, might, or power besides gibbor. I'll be happy to post a list of these words so that we may compare them if you want.

You are asking someone that has no belief in angels even being able to create offspring from men to help you figure out from those verses whether or not it is possible wicked men desribed in these came from "demon-seed."

Sorry cannot help you there and I see nothing in these verses that would help anyone make the NON-LITERAL connection between the sexual activity presented in Gen 6:2 and 6:4 and wickedness. It says that the sex happened PERIOD. That the Nephilim appeared because of this sex PERIOD. It never says at least here in Gen 6 that these Nephilim were wicked. Then the text goes on to speak of the wickedness of ALL MEN. It never says the activity (angel-human sex) depicted is evil and only done by evil/fallen angels. It never says the LORD is angry only at the wicked men. It SAYS ALL MEN. It never even associates what happens next with angels having sex or these mixed "demon-seed". In fact it explicitly and VERY LITERALLY blames ONLY ALL MEN for what happens next.

You can find all the references you like, but you cannot make it LITERALLY say something that it DOES NOT LITERALLY say. You are left in the same boat you claim only I am in when you tell me I must accept 6:2 and 6:4 as literal.

Because just like me, you do not take it all literally either when you claim it says something which it does not say and deny what it does LITERALLY say. ALL MEN means literally ALL MEN, even in your understanding of that text.

DrBubbaLove said:

You are asking someone that has no belief in angels even being able to create offspring from men to help you figure out from those verses whether or not it is possible wicked men desribed in these came from "demon-seed."

Sorry cannot help you there and I see nothing in these verses that would help anyone make the NON-LITERAL connection between the sexual activity presented in Gen 6:2 and 6:4 and wickedness. It says that the sex happened PERIOD. That the Nephilim appeared because of this sex PERIOD. It never says at least here in Gen 6 that these Nephilim were wicked. Then the text goes on to speak of the wickedness of ALL MEN. It never says the activity (angel-human sex) depicted is evil and only done by evil/fallen angels. It never says the LORD is angry only at the wicked men. It SAYS ALL MEN. It never even associates what happens next with angels having sex or these mixed "demon-seed". In fact it explicitly and VERY LITERALLY blames ONLY ALL MEN for what happens next.

You can find all the references you like, but you cannot make it LITERALLY say something that it DOES NOT LITERALLY say. You are left in the same boat you claim only I am in when you tell me I must accept 6:2 and 6:4 as literal.

Because just like me, you do not take it all literally either when you claim it says something which it does not say and deny what it does LITERALLY say. ALL MEN means literally ALL MEN, even in your understanding of that text.

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What verse do you get "all" from? I only read "man" ('adam) as in "mankind" in Genesis 6:5-7. Anyway, it seems logical to me that the topic being discussed just prior to the Flood would have something to do with it. The Book of Enoch, which has always been considered canonical by the Ethiopic church (rediscovered in Ethiopia by the Scottish explorer James Bruce in 1773) goes into far more detail about the events we are discussing. The Book of Enoch clearly states that the activities of the evil offspring of the fallen angels and human women were the reason for Yahweh God sending the Deluge.

Many Christians believe that only the modern Bible contains the true word of God. However, they would be hard-pressed to find proof for their belief within the Bible itself. The warning at the end of The Revelation to John applies only to that book. There is no way to prove otherwise. Besides, the New Testament quotes from the Book of Enoch, so that seems to be a reasonable enough support for its veracity. Not to so that the entire Book of Enoch that has come down to us is the unadulterated word of Yahweh. But, as far as and in the passages where it does not contradict the Bible, I believe it is.

Ok, I will say it again; perhaps this was in another thread. I do not doubt that the writers of Gen 6, ancient Hebrew traditions, all Pagans and maybe even some modern Jews, believed spirits in general and especially demons could have sex with and produce offspring by women (or even men in some cases). These were all very common ideas concerning spirits and gods in all cultures. Some ancient Hebrews traditions have the air so full of demons that there were specific beliefs about covering your mouth and nose at times to avoid breathing them in. Given these beliefs it is not surprising to me that some of them would make it into their sacred writing. That is all I see 6:2 and 6:4 as. It represents the writer’s understanding of how there could be such wicked men in the world. Just because these writers believed these things and probably much more, does not mean I am required to believe literally everything they believed. I do not think we can literally breath a demon in either, but I do think the idea correctly represents demon possession which obviously I do believe in.

LOL, My bad on “ALL MEN”, just noted the KJV does not say that. But it also just says “man” in verse 6 and 7. Even in the KJV it does not LITERALLY specify any exceptions to the meaning behind “man” in fact it clearly implies ALL. Which is why I suspect my NAB says ALL MEN. God saying He was sorry He created us suggests ALL OF US (which I do not believe literally BTW either – God is sorry – come on). My statement is therefore still valid.

For you, KJV
6:5) And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually.

6) And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

7) And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.


I agree you could perhaps INFER a connection because of its proximity between SOME of this wickedness mentioned in 6:5-7 back to the sexual activity in 6:2 and 6:4. That makes sense, but I still think that is a bit of stretch. You seem to go further. Understand you guys to say that ALL this wickedness, all this evil and godlessness in men is the result/fault of the sexual activity between angels-women. Clearly God is not shown here punishing the angels for this activity, which is odd in light of your view that it was this activity that you see at the root of all wickedness in men that eventually causes God to want to destroy all of the earth. Doesn't it seem rather odd to leave these evil angels out of that destruction, not even mention what happens to them (even if it is eventual punishment rather than through the flood itself). God is not even shown angry with them, just at men.
The non-literal leaps I see you guys making:

saying sex(literal)– to offspring (literal) - to all wicked (literal) - to only some wicked (just the demonseed – not literal) – which then you infer back to sex in the initial literal reference to get to - wicked offspring (not literal – now a double inference) and finally that reference to sex must have only been with demons since the offspring are wicked (again at least a double inference and not literal). Those are the leaps in logic that I think you cannot make from a postion where you claim a literal reading of these scriptures. You are making inferences and connections that literally are not present to reach your conclusions.

You are imposing meanings that ARE NOT LITERALLY there, just like I do when I say 6:2 and 6:4 mean something other than what it literally says.

DrBubbaLove said:

Understand you guys to say that ALL this wickedness, all this evil and godlessness in men is the result/fault of the sexual activity between angels-women.

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I never claimed this. Yahweh brought the Flood to purify the earth of the fallen angels' demonic offspring which had contaminated his original creation. Men ('adam) were already evil. Their original ancestors had already sinned and were cast out of the Garden. They were already possessed of a fallen nature. But they become absolutley wicked due to Nephilim DNA which had infected their genetic code. While the Nephilim genes did not deprive men of free will, it made their propensity for evil much higher. Their flesh was more inclined to evil than the pure 'Adamic race.

Anyway, I don't see the point of continuing this debate with you, since you seem to believe the word of Yahweh God is a collection of mythology, folktales, and superstition. Your belief in this lie enslaves you, just as my belief in the truth sets me free.

Ebed-Yahweh said:

I never claimed this. Yahweh brought the Flood to purify the earth of the fallen angels' demonic offspring which had contaminated his original creation. Men ('adam) were already evil. Their original ancestors had already sinned and were cast out of the Garden. They were already possessed of a fallen nature. But they become absolutley wicked due to Nephilim DNA which had infected their genetic code. While the Nephilim genes did not deprive men of free will, it made their propensity for evil much higher. Their flesh was more inclined to evil than the pure 'Adamic race.

Anyway, I don't see the point of continuing this debate with you, since you seem to believe the word of Yahweh God is a collection of mythology, folktales, and superstition. Your belief in this lie enslaves you, just as my belief in the truth sets me free.

Click to expand...

So that is it! You get mad if I point out your understanding is no more literal than mine and so now you take your ball and go home.

BTW it is you that make God's Word folktales and superstitution in saying that two particular verses full of the same must literally mean that. I am the one saying God's Word properly understood, does not contain folktales or superstition. I never said these words had no meaning, I just said they were not literal. You say these verses are literal because we must take all of God's Word literally, but at the same time you are free to take verses in the same Chapter as not literal. So which is it? Is it all literal or only the parts you say are literal?

You are the one saying not only is superstition in there, but you say we must believe it because it is in there. And you base that by saying we must take it all literally, then you take only two verses literally and making inferences, double inferences and connections that are NOT LITERALLY there to support your belief in superstition.

You claim here that God destroys all the Nephilim, destroys all these absolutely evil men, while elsewhere you or someone says they survive the flood. Which is it? Does God destroy them all or do they survive. Someone else says Jude speaks of these same demon-seed in NT times. So obviously some of you still think these totally wicked, godless men that are the product of demon-women sex, this "demon-seed" are still around today.

So again which is it, they are all gone because God destroyed them in the flood or do we still have demon-seed with us today? Clearly Nephilimiyr and others believe that men with 'demon-seed' probably or possibly live among us today. What about you?

Don't get so excited, Dr.BL. You didn't win anything. I don't agree with your viewpoints or your logic. Nor do you understand my understanding.

Why do you feel the need to debate this topic so heatedly? What's your point? Who or what do you feel you are defending?

Who is getting hot? You were the one talking about going away and not speaking to me anymore. Glad you stayed.

I was actually having fun with Nephilimiyr and even with you it has been civil.

So do we still have demon-seed with us today or not? Is it just maybe, probably, possibly or No?

Also never said I won. I said you were walking away because I pointed out that your understanding is no more literal than my own. You then started slinging the accusations about myths, superstition and fairytales, which as I pointed out, are what you claim is in God's Word. I would say those are not part of God's Word properly understood.

DrBubbaLove said:

You are asking someone that has no belief in angels even being able to create offspring from men to help you figure out from those verses whether or not it is possible wicked men desribed in these came from "demon-seed."

Sorry cannot help you there and I see nothing in these verses that would help anyone make the NON-LITERAL connection between the sexual activity presented in Gen 6:2 and 6:4 and wickedness. It says that the sex happened PERIOD. That the Nephilim appeared because of this sex PERIOD. It never says at least here in Gen 6 that these Nephilim were wicked. Then the text goes on to speak of the wickedness of ALL MEN. It never says the activity (angel-human sex) depicted is evil and only done by evil/fallen angels. It never says the LORD is angry only at the wicked men. It SAYS ALL MEN. It never even associates what happens next with angels having sex or these mixed "demon-seed". In fact it explicitly and VERY LITERALLY blames ONLY ALL MEN for what happens next.

You can find all the references you like, but you cannot make it LITERALLY say something that it DOES NOT LITERALLY say. You are left in the same boat you claim only I am in when you tell me I must accept 6:2 and 6:4 as literal.

Because just like me, you do not take it all literally either when you claim it says something which it does not say and deny what it does LITERALLY say. ALL MEN means literally ALL MEN, even in your understanding of that text.

Click to expand...

I must confess I am getting somewhat lost in your argument. Let me say one thing though. When we speak of taking the Word "literally" please don't think of those "fundies" you mentioned down the road from you. I prefer to think of literal in the sense of practical, logical, commonsense. I see the scriptures as God's story of His plan and working made known to humanity in a written form. It uses various literary forms ie narrative, documentary, poetry, analogy, parables etc. It does not provide answers down to the smallest detail. This is why we are told to "divide the Word rightly" (2Tim.2:15). The Word needs to be studied, this is why God appoints teachers in the Church. Not all of us have the ability or practical situation to spend the majority of our time in study. However, it is the teachers job to teach, but it remains our responsibility to think. We need to do our own thinking and in thinking, apply what we learn.

In discussing the Nephilim, the flood and angel/human mating we need to look at the whole picture. Do you do jigsaw puzzles? I love jigsaws, haven't had time to do many of late years but understanding the Word in some ways is like doing a jigsaw. We pick up a piece (verse or two) and wonder what it represents. So we have to sit back and look at the picture on the front cover (the whole scripture) to get an idea of where it fits in the puzzle (God's plan). Some pieces are easy to see. They have straight edges so we know they are on the outside, other pieces are "blue". They might be water, they might be sky so we have to take a closer look in order to determine their proper place.

I appreciate you don't understand how angels (spirits) can procreate with humans and produce offspring. It might surprise you but I don't understand how that is possible either, anymore than I understand how God made Adam's body from the ground. But the Word says He did, so I believe it. The Word also says angels mated with human woman and they produced children. I believe that too so the questions I see that need asking is "why"? For what purpose?; what were the results of this?; why would God allow it? These are but a handful of questions off the top of my head. If I were to accept a non-literal understanding of this passage, I find I am left with more questions than answers. Whereas a literal understanding gives me a basis for other verses in scripture and a greater clarification of them.

If you are suggesting that the "wickedness of men" has no connection with "the Sons of God taking human wives" and "bearing Nephilim", then you may as well say scripture doesn't connect with scripture. If that were the case then what point to knowing what it says or doesn't say. Chapter six begins with the disobedience of angels and ends with the obedience of one man (Noah). If you cannot see there is a profound story at work in the midst of it then...... well I don't know what to say.

I wish I had the time to show you the things I have been taught so far, but this is a busy week. Maybe if this thread is still around next week...??

peace

DrBubbaLove said:

So do we still have demon-seed with us today or not? Is it just maybe, probably, possibly or No?

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Yes.

I'll answer a few related questions.

Do Yahweh's holy angels still visit the earth?

Yes.

Do some of these take the forms of men and women during their missions and pass themselves off as mortals?

Yes.

Do fallen angels still apppear as men and live among us?

Yes.

Can fallen angels shapeshift?

Yes.

Are some of the most powerful and wicked men in the world actually fallen angels?

Yes.

Do fallen angels often manifest themselves as UFOS/aliens?

Yes.

Are alien abducitions and the creation of human/alien hybrids tied in with the return of the Nephilim?

I think so.

Is mapping the human genome, embryonic stem-cell research, and the eventual cloning of humans (if it hasn't already been done) an unholy plan to provide physical (soulless) bodies for demonic spirits (of the Nephilim, Rephaim, etc.) to freely take possession of?

Makes sense to me.

Has Satan already been cast down to the earth (see Revelation 12:9-12)?

Most likely.

See that was not so hard was it!

Alrighty then, so we have demon-seed among us!

Am I to love them as I love myself?

Nephilimiyr in OP:
<< However, God never intended for angels to procreate. That wasn't part of his plan. Yet we see that angels can become fully physical by reading the Bible. For them to procreate is a violation of the laws He established. >>

You make a whole series of assumptions here. Is it possible for angels to sin? Do they fall from heaven when they do?

You seem to be taking a handful of verses from Genesis and going off on a tangent. DrBubbaLove's approach in post #10 is a better idea. As I've pointed out before, scripture never prohibits sex between angels and mortals, or even demons and mortals. This indicates to me that it is not possible and does not happen. Genesis 6 refers to bad marriages, but if fallen angels, demons, are involved, I can't imagine these relationships being sanctified by marriage. The whole notion is a jumble of contradictions.

Sawdust in post #6:
<< Even though they were given 120 years of strong evangelism by Noah, it failed to convice them to turn to the Lord and have redemption. The Lord consequently brought the flood down upon them and destroyed them. >>

Genesis says that the times of Noah were evil but it never says that giants or descendants of demons were the only group in conflict with Noah and Noah's God. Likewise, the story of Noah is followed by the Tower of Babel, but there is no indication that the Tower of Babel was built by giants or descendants of demons. I think you're reading a lot into the text.