What came first? Grace or Faith?

rainoflove said:

But, my basic question is, from a Bible perspective what comes first? Grace or faith? We believe by faith alone. We believe by Grace alone. But which one comes first? How do we define Grace, and how does Grace relate to faith?

Rain

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Dear Rain

The basic question is: Do/Did you have anything good in you to be able to approach God and to believe in Him. The short answer is, No!

Romans 3:10 - 12 states "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one."

John 14:6 says: Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. "

Finally Eph.2:8,9 says: For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. "

Nobody seeks for God.
No one can come to God except through Jesus.
The Father draws us to Jesus.
It is a gift of God.

GRACE AND GRACE ALONE

rainoflove said:

With all this discussion about faith, my mind has been spinning even in my own personal walk with Christ.

Here's my question.

It seems to me, the Arminian (or like) would say - faith first. Faith = grace. ie, we do not experience God's saving Grace unless we put our faith in Christ, by coming to repentance and trusting in Him. This is conditional election (the condition that must be met is our faith in Christ.)

The Calvinist (or like) would say - Grace first. Grace = faith. It is because of God's grace on whomsoever he pleases that a believer has faith to repent and believe in Christ. This would be unconditional election (God meets the condition himself because of faith.)

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Both Calvin and Arminius agreed that grace was a prerequisite to faith. The argument is not over which came first, grace or faith, but over the nature of the preceding grace. Calvinists believe this grace binds a man's will ensuring faith, while Arminians believe it frees a man's will enabling faith. Calvinists believe the goal of the grace is belief. Arminians believe the goal of the grace is freedom to believe.

Your above characterization is a common misconception. See the thread titled "Arminianism, Wesleyanism and Prevenient Grace."

Rainoflove, the prior posts have been excellent. So grace comes before faith. But as the prior posts indicate, that is not the issue. If mankind, in Adam, and unregenerate is unable to respond to the gospel, then some sort of direct influence by God upon our condition must occur before we place our faith in Christ. Both Arminians and Calvinists accept this view. Lets call it "Enabling Grace" before "Saving Faith." The nature of the grace is said to be irresistible or prevenient, but the idea is that our natural condition is altered so that we can respond to the gospel.

Now contrary to this is scripture. Scripture says our faith in Christ is our introduction to the grace in which we stand. So what the Arminians and Calvinists do is make an argument from silence.

1 John 4:19 says we love God because God first loved us. 1 John 4:16 says we have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. So the truth from scripture is that God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.

In summary, God's grace comes before our faith. But the nature of that grace is the bone of contention. Scripture says God demonstrated His love for us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. This demonstrated love, this act to reconcile mankind to Himself is the grace that comes before our faith. And it is our faith in that grace, the gospel of Christ which is our introduction to the saving grace in which we stand. By grace we have been saved through faith.

Interestingly, if you compare different greek originals for Acts 6:8, some have it that Stephen was full of 'faith and power' and some that he was full of 'grace and power'. I don't know why this is, but it seems to me that faith is, in itself, a grace.

Certainly it is a mercy if a person has faith, and I don't believe it comes from within an unregenerate heart. I would say it is more the product or fruit of God's grace than the other way round.

Peter

rainoflove said:

With all this discussion about faith, my mind has been spinning even in my own personal walk with Christ.

Here's my question.

It seems to me, the Arminian (or like) would say - faith first. Faith = grace. ie, we do not experience God's saving Grace unless we put our faith in Christ, by coming to repentance and trusting in Him. This is conditional election (the condition that must be met is our faith in Christ.)

The Calvinist (or like) would say - Grace first. Grace = faith. It is because of God's grace on whomsoever he pleases that a believer has faith to repent and believe in Christ. This would be unconditional election (God meets the condition himself because of faith.)

Now, I might be wrong on my interpretation on such views and I would gladly hear ya'll out. So, I just want to know if I am correct in such an assessment?

Let me tell you where I am coming from. I am a calvinist Arminian, or an Arminian Calvinist. ie, I love the truth of both views and would love to find out exactly what the truth is. I've found great joy in living out both views in my christianity, because where the one falls short the other can pick up. ie, unconditional election could make us a little unsure of our salvation, where as conditional election makes us sure. However, unconditional election is a humbling doctrine whereas conditional election is one that *could* cause us to trust in our own choices rather than in the grace of God.

But, my basic question is, from a Bible perspective what comes first? Grace or faith? We believe by faith alone. We believe by Grace alone. But which one comes first? How do we define Grace, and how does Grace relate to faith?

Thanks to all in advance for insight and Godly wisdom as we pursue truth in Christ!

Rain

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Great questions. Grace proceeds faith. You get your faith from God, not from yourself.

Romans 12:3For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.

If you look at Romans 12:3 in context, I think you will find this is talking about our life after being indwelt, the gifts of the holy spirit to facilitate our ministry to the body of Christ which Paul refers to as our measure of faith.

Van said:

If you look at Romans 12:3 in context, I think you will find this is talking about our life after being indwelt, the gifts of the holy spirit to facilitate our ministry to the body of Christ which Paul refers to as our measure of faith.

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You are right, we are indwelt (born again) and that makes the faith possible. It is all from God.

Gamecock, clever post but it should have had a smiley face. The Calvinist assertion that regeneration comes before faith is without support in scripture. Regeneration means to be born again and that occurs when we are spiritually baptized into Christ. We are indwelt after we believe and after we are baptized into Christ and after our body of flesh is removed with the circumcision done without hands. If faith was a gift of God prior to salvation, then it would not need to be reckoned as righteousness. If our faith in Christ was a gift of God, then it would be a grace of God and not our introduction to the grace in which we stand. If you consider the verses in context, such as Romans 12:3, they do not support a pre-salvation gift of faith. Folks that are indwelt are already saved. See Acts 10. The washing of regeneration is to be spiritually baptized into Christ where the body of flesh (sin) is removed. See Titus 3:5.

[QUOTE=Van]We are indwelt after we believe and after we are baptized into Christ and after our body of flesh is removed with the circumcision done without hands. If faith was a gift of God prior to salvation, then it would not need to be reckoned as righteousness. If our faith in Christ was a gift of God, then it would be a grace of God and not our introduction to the grace in which we stand. If you consider the verses in context, such as Romans 12:3, they do not support a pre-salvation gift of faith. Folks that are indwelt are already saved. See Acts 10. The washing of regeneration is to be spiritually baptized into Christ where the body of flesh (sin) is removed. See Titus 3:5.[/QUOTE]

Van

Where do you get the ability to respond to the Gospel? You mean to tell us that there was something good in all of us (faith) ,so as to be able to say yes to Jesus' offer of salvation?

Not according to Romans Rom 7:18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.

Hi Johan777, yes, that is my understanding from scripture. When asked the question, what must I do to be saved, Paul answered "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ." See Acts 16:30-31. Let me make this clear. Total depravity as asserted by the Calvinist is a mistaken view of scripture. Unconditional Election as aserted by the Calvinist is a mistaken view of scripture. Limited Atonement as asserted by the Calvinists is a mistaken view of scripture. Irresistible grace as asserted by the Calvinists is a mistaken view of scripture. I tell you this not to be invideous, but just to let you know where I am coming from.

Now lets turn to your verse, Romans 7:18 offered in support of the concept of total depravity. Now we do agree that this verse demonstrates that in our unregenerate state, we are in Adam, and therefore in a sinful state, separated from God and thus spiritually dead. But our problem, our depravity is greater than that. Our nature has been corrupted, just as Adam and Eve were corrupted when "their eyes were opened."
So the point of contention is not what the verse actually teaches, we agree on that, but rather your inference, or more accurately the inference of the Calvinist view, is that this depravity makes it impossible for us in this depraved state to respond to the gospel. But if you look carefully at your verse, it says nothing of the sort. In fact, it teaches the exact opposite. It says the mind is willing to do good, therefore it is able to know and understand the gospel and trust in the gospel. In verse 24 you see Paul yearning to be set free from the bondage to sin this is our unregenerate state, so again scripture teaches we can be willing to seek God, either by the works of the law to no avail, or by faith. See Romans 9:30-33.

In summary, there are dozens of passages that demonstrate we, in our unregenate state, are depraved. But none, repeat none, when considered contextually, that indicate we are unable to respond to the gospel because we are "in Adam."

Van

Sorry to disappoint you, but I am not a Calvinist, but a Bible believing Christian.

The Bible teaches this doctrine. A few verses:
... as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one." (Rom.3:10-12)

... and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. (Rom.3:24,25)

Saved through faith, yes but this faith is a gift of God "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." (Eph.2:8,9)

Man in his fleshly state cannot submit to God, cannot even say yes to God. In Roman 8:7-8 Paul declares, "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God."

However, Romans 8:9 says, You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. The Spirit of God only indwells us when we are born again.

Already in Ezegiel God said, For I will take you out from among the nations, and get you together from all the countries, and take you into your land. And I will put clean water on you so that you may be clean: from all your unclean ways and from all your images I will make you clean. And I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you: I will take away the heart of stone from your flesh, and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit in you, causing you to be guided by my rules, and you will keep my orders and do them. (24-27)

There are many more, but I will conclude with 2 Cor. 4:4-6 "In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake. For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

The Bible states that I was unable to respond to God in any positive way, but through His grace, He saved me when I was not looking for Him.

Hi Johan777, and I am sorry I made the assumption that you were offering up total depravity from the Calvinist perspective. I still believe, since you offered up the usual suspects, that you believe in total depravity. And as I have said, I believe it is a mistaken view of scripture.

I did not see that you made any comments concerning Romans 7:18. I thought I had made a pretty good case that it in no way supported the premise of total depravity. There are dozens of verses that those who believe in total depravity cite, is it you plan to have me rebut them all before you face the issue - the verses do not support the premise?

Let me crank through them briefly. Romans Chapter three teaches we are all under sin, if you break one point of the Law, you have broken them all, and since everybody sins, seeking the righteousness of God by doing the works of the Law is in effect not seeking God, because no flesh is justified by the works of the Law. Therefore this passage teaches that only by trusting in Christ can be obtain the righteousness of God. So contrary to the premise, this passage teaches that in a depraved state, folks can trust in Christ. As verse 26 so clearly says, God is just and the justifier of those who believe.

Salvation is a gift of God. Justification is a gift of God. Neither of these truths argues for or against the concept of total depravity.

Ephsians 2:8-9 says that salvation is a gift of God, it does not say faith is a gift of God. In Greek grammar, you tie pronouns to their subjects by matching gender, in this verse the "that" in the phrase "and that not of yourselves" is not the same gender as either faith or grace. Therefore, in light of the grammar, the best understanding is that the "that" refers to the whole clause which refers to salvation.

Romans 8:7-8 indicates that we can set our minds on fleshly desires or on spiritual things. Since the unregenerate cannot rest their minds on the Spirit of Christ, because they are not indwelt, they cannot walk with God as believers can. The fact that the unregenerate cannot keep the Law does not suggest they cannot seek to keep the Law, nor trust in Christ.

Romans 8:9, yes the spirit of God only indwells born again believers, so the unregenerate cannot rest their mind on the indwelt Spirit of Christ. That does not mean they cannot seek God and trust in Christ. See Romans 7:18.

I agree that when we are converted, after we believe, we are given a new heart and a clear conscience. This demonstrates that before conversion we are corrupt, but does not demonstrate that that corruption prevents us from learning from God and trusting in Christ. The Law is a tudor. Total depravity makes the purpose of the Law null and void, therefore total depravity is a mistaken view of scripture.

Yes, scripture is clear, some of the folks that are depraved, as so depraved, love the darkness so much, that they are blinded and do not understand the good news. The light of the gospel does not penetrate their unregenerate heart. But if you consider Matthew 13 you will see that not everybody that is depraved falls into that catigory. The premise of total depravity takes a truth that applies to some folks and says it applies to all folks all the time. This is unwarrented in light of the balance of scripture.

The bible says you were unable to do good deeds, but read Hebrews 11:6 and think about what it means. God reckons our faith as righteousness, consider Romans Chapter 4. The way to separate faith from works is to say if it is something I did that I am relying upon, it is a work, but if I am relying upon the completed work of Christ, then it is faith. Our faith in Christ is our introduction into the grace in which we stand. See Romans 5:2.

Van

After a quick scan of your rebuttal, it is quite clear to me that you approach all of my "proof verses" from an Arminian point of view. There is just no point in trying to find common ground on this topic.

In your own words: "depravity makes it impossible for us in this depraved state to respond to the gospel". That is spot on. In this total state of depravity, it is quite clear that man in his fleshly state can have no resolve in himself, to be able to respond positively to the gospel.

The issue is faith. Where did you get this faith? You have to muster up the faith to believe and I declare that God through the offering of Jesus opened my eyes to see my depraved state and gave me believing faith.

Rom 10:14 But how are they to call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?

As Romans 10:17 states, Faith comes be hearing through the word of Christ. Furthermore, Romans 10:20 states, Isaiah is so bold as to say, "I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me."

He found me. He opened my eyes to the Gospel, For God.....has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. (2 Cor.4:6)

I would rather concur with the Bible, than any humanistic view of man.

Genesis 6:5,12 says "Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 12 So God looked upon the earth, and indeed it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way on the earth.

Ephesians 2:1-3 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins: Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Genesis 6 states "that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually", so how on earth were you able to come to Christ? Where did you evoke the faith from in that state?

Johan 777, sorry to disappoint you but I an not an Arminian, but a bible believing Christian.

My position is that total depravity is a mistaken view of scripture.

The issue is not faith, but total depravity, which I think I have demonstrated is a mistaken view of scripture. Why not stay on target. Why simply dismiss what I said, and post another raft of verses which also do not demonstrate the assertion that faith is a gift.

Romans 10:14 has nothing to do with the assertion of the gift of faith, it simply states the obvious, we must be exposed to God's revelation in order to believe in the revelation, the gospel of Christ. Ditto for Romans 10:17; Ditto for 2 Corinthians 4:6; ditto for 2 Peter 1:19.

Having posted three verses that do not demostrate your assertion, you then assert that your assertion is the biblical view and those that oppose are representing a humanistic view. Just a tad selfserving don't you think?

Then you post Genesis 6:5, and 6:12 but skip 6:8. There is no doubt that an unregenerate heart is wicked, corrupted and so forth. What is lacking is the idea that a person in this condition could not seek and trust in God. Which of course is exactly what Noah did - see Genesis 6:8.

Ephesians 2:1-3 demonstrates that the unregenerate are depraved, but does not address our spiritual ability to seek God and trust in Jesus. The fallacy here is to prove "A" and then assert that proves "B". But scripture such as Romans 7:18 clearly demonstrates that while unregenerate, folks can seek what is good, can pursue the righteousness of God.

In summary, the idea that every intent of the heart is evil does not preclude seeking God, just as Noah did. When viewed contextually, none of your verses support your assertion. How did I become the good soil of Matthew 13? I was cultivated by believers, such as my parents. I was exposed to the Word of God and therefore I had heard and learned from the Father. I believed in God and believed God is the rewarder of those who seek Him. I was aware of the Law and knew I had broken it, that I was a sinner, a wretched person. And then one day I witnessed a Christian behave like Christ, rather than as I would have behaved. and I knew he was different from me, that he was a new creation. And I trusted in Christ, telling him all my evil ways and thoughts, and asking for the mercy I did not deserve. I fell on my knees. I spent the better part of two days praying and praying and thinking about my committment, to hold nothing back, to pick up my cross and follow Him. I responded to the revelation that God providently put in my path. I responded to the believers who brought me the gospel by the example of their lives as well with the Word of God.
My experience was exactly like Paul describes in Romans 7:18. The grace of God touched me before I put my faith in Christ, I was convicted by the Holy Spirit working through believers.

pcwilkins said:

Interestingly, if you compare different greek originals for Acts 6:8, some have it that Stephen was full of 'faith and power' and some that he was full of 'grace and power'. I don't know why this is, but it seems to me that faith is, in itself, a grace.

Certainly it is a mercy if a person has faith, and I don't believe it comes from within an unregenerate heart. I would say it is more the product or fruit of God's grace than the other way round.

Peter

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Quite interesting, because PISTIS is the Greek Word for Faith and CHARIS is the Greek Word for GRACE.

Looking at Eph. 2:8 we know that there is both grace and faith mentioned in this particular verse. Now when I did a simple comparison of the Greek Word for grace in Eph. 2:8 it looks like the same root word for grace in Acts 6:8. It does not look anything like the Greek word for pistis. I would translate it grace.

*warning I am not a Pastor teacher nor have I ever taken a Greek class (I have been studying Greek with a PT for the last 17 years).


Linden

Linden, I think the point that Peter was making is that the text upon which the KJV and NKJV is based has the word "faith" in Acts 6:8, whereas the critical text has the word grace in Acts 6:8. Based on the earliest and best texts, the word should be grace and that is why it appears in the critical text.

In Acts 6:5 we see that Stephen was full of faith and the Holy Spirit and in Acts 6:8 we see that Stephen was full of grace and power. See the difference. Being indwelt is a grace, a gift, and faith unleashes the power of the Holy Spirit, so Stephen, being indwelt and full of faith was full of the Spirit, it had not been quenched, and by his faith, the power of the Holy Spirit had been unleashed.

The gift of faith as asserted by the Calvinists cannot be found in scripture, nor in the variants of the text.

The infinitely simple and the infinitely complex. Though even the definition of grace is beyond us, perhaps we can remember this. It took faith on our part for us to each accept God's gift of salvation through His Son. This obviously implies that there was/is a gift to be accepted. This gift, as He says, is His grace through His Son. Therefore, first was His gift (grace) given, then was our acceptance (faith) through Jesus. Faith cannot have been first or you would be talking about a religion. The "relationship" is the gift of grace offered by the Father to those who would put their trust in His Son. There can be no faith without the existance of His grace. His "plan" was set up an eternity ago, before creation. Ergo, His grace precedes faith by an eternity, as well. The mistake was at the beginning of your logic. His perspective vs ours. If you're referring to one of His attributes (all based upon Love), you must submit to His perspective. He's not bound by the creation of time, and He's unchanging, His grace has always existed, -- even towards us.

grace, because god provided for us from before we were born.