Dumb Question #784

rhyddid_rose · Mar 15, 2005

To Life Immortal

Hello I like learning about different people in order to understand them better. I think I asked this before, but I dont quite understand just what a Calvinist is.

I know Calvin (with John Knox) started Church of Scotland and it believes in tulip. Not too sure of all what tulip means. Total depravity, limited atonement, perseverance of saints, I think.

Could some explain what a Calvinist is and how they worship? Thanks in advance.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

Ba dhúthchas riamh d'ár gcine cháidh

Gan iompáil riar ó imirt áir,
'Siubhal mar iad i gcoinnibh rámhaid
Seo libh, canaidh amhrán na bhFiann.
~*~ бабочка ~*~
We're children of a fighting race
That never yet has known disgrace,
And as we march the foe to face,.......
We'll chant a soldier's song.

Imblessed · Mar 16, 2005

Total Depravity---Original Sin, We are dead in our sins, We have no desire for God, we have no ability to choose God, our hearts are continually bent away from God

Unconditional Election--God's Election is not based on us in any way, shape or form. we do not need to meet any "condition" before He chooses us. I like to call it Unmerited Favor. The best part about Grace!!! :clap:

Limited Atonement---Jesus's atoning work on the cross was for the Elect only, and not for "everyone".

Irresistable Grace---God's Grace is effectual. It cannot be denied. We choose God because He chose us first.

Perseverance of the Saints--Those God chose, and called, He will sustain to the end. God is the Author, Perfecter and Finisher of our faith.

That's TULIP in a nutshell. It is not the "whole" teaching of Calvinism, but it is the foundation of our faith and beliefs.

As for how we worship, well it depends on whether as a Calvinist you are Reformed or not. I go to a Calvinstic Baptist church, and our worship is very modern. Praise and Worship music at the beginning of every service, and a sermon afterwards. It's that simple.
The Presbyterians do it very differently. I'll let them tell you how their worship is done.

Hope that helped!

Gamecock · Mar 16, 2005

Imblessed said:
.
The Presbyterians do it very differently. I'll let them tell you how their worship is done.

I can speak for the Presbyterian Church in America. The local church has a great deal of autonomy in deciding what worship "looks" like. You can walk into any given PCA service and it will be very different from another. The one common thread is the proclomation of God's word. The sermon is always the centerpiece.

Our beloved Orthodox Presbyterian bretheren are more regulative in their worship. Most (I can't say all because I haven't been to all of them

) sign from the Psalter and sing [size=-1]accapala[/size].

rhyddid_rose · Mar 17, 2005

To Life Immortal

Imblessed said:
As for how we worship, well it depends on whether as a Calvinist you are Reformed or not. I go to a Calvinstic Baptist church, and our worship is very modern.

Oh! Ok, I was under the impression that Calvinism was a church/denomination. Oooops. I was unaware that a Baptist could be a Calvinist. I associated Calvin with the Church of Scotland and Geneva. CMIIW, did the Reform movement begin in Geneva? I was thinking that the Reformed church broke from the Lutheran church.

Gamecock said:
Our beloved Orthodox Presbyterian bretheren are more regulative in their worship. Most (I can't say all because I haven't been to all of them ) sign from the Psalter and sing

Gamecock said:
accapala.

Wow, that sounds like my church. I am a female tenor chanter and we chant/sing prayers and responses. We have no musical instruments; we are the music.

Gamecock, eh? Are you from South Carolina?

~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ba dhúthchas riamh d'ár gcine cháidh
Gan iompáil riar ó imirt áir,
'Siubhal mar iad i gcoinnibh rámhaid
Seo libh, canaidh amhrán na bhFiann.
~~***~~~***~~
We're children of a fighting race
That never yet has known disgrace,
And as we march the foe to face,.......
We'll chant a soldier's song.

mmreed · Mar 17, 2005

Imblessed said:
Unconditional Election--God's Election is not based on us in any way, shape or form. we do not need to meet any "condition" before He chooses us. I like to call it Unmerited Favor. The best part about Grace!!!

Limited Atonement---Jesus's atoning work on the cross was for the Elect only, and not for "everyone".

Please pardon what may seem like a tainted question, I do not intend it to offend, or start a flame... but my intent is to learn and understand.... being a new Christian, I have so many questions....

If God is an all loving God, and the bible teaches us to forgive others as God forgives us.... and Jesus says we must forgive all those that have offended us, not judge, and turn the other cheek so to say.... why are only the elect going to heaven? Should not everyone be forgiven and welcomed into heaven if they truly in thier hearts love God..and even those that do not, be shown mercy and forgiveness?

There seems to be so much contradiction... Forgive everyone... Love everyone... but only the elect can go to heaven.

Or is the whole point that those that DO live the word of God, and do love Him, end up being the elect...just not maybe knowing it?

Wilfred of Ivanhoe · Mar 17, 2005

mmreed said:
Please pardon what may seem like a tainted question, I do not intend it to offend, or start a flame... but my intent is to learn and understand.... being a new Christian, I have so many questions....

If God is an all loving God, and the bible teaches us to forgive others as God forgives us.... and Jesus says we must forgive all those that have offended us, not judge, and turn the other cheek so to say.... why are only the elect going to heaven? Should not everyone be forgiven and welcomed into heaven if they truly in thier hearts love God..and even those that do not, be shown mercy and forgiveness?

There seems to be so much contradiction... Forgive everyone... Love everyone... but only the elect can go to heaven.

Or is the whole point that those that DO live the word of God, and do love Him, end up being the elect...just not maybe knowing it?

I think you hit the nail on the head in your last question. The elect are those whom God has given the Son. If you are trusting in Christ's finished work alone for your salvation, then you are one of the elect. It is not as if the elect are some special group of Christians who have been marked out from the rest of Christians.

Wilfred of Ivanhoe · Mar 17, 2005

babochka said:
To Life Immortal

Oh! Ok, I was under the impression that Calvinism was a church/denomination. Oooops. I was unaware that a Baptist could be a Calvinist. I associated Calvin with the Church of Scotland and Geneva. CMIIW, did the Reform movement begin in Geneva? I was thinking that the Reformed church broke from the Lutheran church.

I am hardly a Reformation historian, but I will do my best to answer this question in a consise manner.

I would call Calvinism a manner of interpreting the scripture, the best way IMO. As you noted, we are not a denomination. It seems that most Calvinists tend to be Presbyterian, Baptist or non-denom.

A simple view of the Protestant Reformation would say that the Reformation started in Wittenburg, Germany on October 31, 1517 when Martin Luther nailed his 95 theses on the church door. Luther advocated that the final authority of the church did not reside with the pope, church counsils, or tradition, but soley on the Word of God.

From what little I know of John Calvin, I understand that he was born in France and fled to Geneva after he spoke out against the Catholic practices in France. Calvin is linked to the church of Scotland in that her head during the Reformation, John Knox, lived in exile for roughly 3 years during the reign of "Bloody Mary" Tudor. Therefore, Calvin had much influence on Knox, although Knox had been a reformer in Scotland and in England for several years prior to coming to Geneva.

mmreed · Mar 17, 2005

Wilfred of Ivanhoe said:
I think you hit the nail on the head in your last question. The elect are those whom God has given the Son. If you are trusting in Christ's finished work alone for your salvation, then you are one of the elect. It is not as if the elect are some special group of Christians who have been marked out from the rest of Christians.

thanks. I struggle with this thought all the time.

Wilfred of Ivanhoe · Mar 17, 2005

mmreed said:
thanks. I struggle with this thought all the time.

I am sorry, are you struggling with your faith in Christ, or with this concept of the elect?

Imblessed · Mar 17, 2005

mmreed said:
mmreed said:

Please pardon what may seem like a tainted question, I do not intend it to offend, or start a flame... but my intent is to learn and understand.... being a new Christian, I have so many questions....

Click to expand...

The only way you could offend, or start a flame is to come in here and call us heretics and tell us how wrong we are! Honest questions are welcomed here!

If God is an all loving God, and the bible teaches us to forgive others as God forgives us.... and Jesus says we must forgive all those that have offended us, not judge, and turn the other cheek so to say.... why are only the elect going to heaven?

Click to expand...

That is how Universalists become universalists, if you know what I mean. The idea that everyone should be shown forgiveness and mercy. But after reading this a couple of times, I think I see where you are coming from.

Should not everyone be forgiven and welcomed into heaven if they truly in thier hearts love God..and even those that do not, be shown mercy and forgiveness?

Click to expand...

....why should those who do not love God be shown mercy and forgiveness? Because it makes us feel good?

As Wilfred pointed out, the "elect" are not a sub-group of "christians" who make it. The "elect" is every true christian, Calvinist or Arminian, Protestant or Catholic, etc

I understand where your confusion lies as a young christian. God expects us to love everyone as we love ourselves, to forgive "70 X 7", etc but God doesn't seem to do the same. It's not our job it second-guess God, or makes decisions about His mercy--especially when we do not see the "big picture", or even understand most things on our own level, let alone God's. Does that make sense? It's not a great answer, I know...but it's the best I have.

rhyddid_rose · Mar 17, 2005

To Life Immortal

Imblessed said:
As Wilfred pointed out, the "elect" are not a sub-group of "christians" who make it. The "elect" is every true christian, Calvinist or Arminian, Protestant or Catholic, etc

Ah, thanks! This is my view of the elect as well. I can't recall the exact verse, but seem to remember in the Gospel where Lord Jesus says they will not be snatched out of my hand. All true Christians, be they Catholic, Orthodox or Protestant will be with the Lord forever.

I can't say I'm a Calvinist because I dont believe in Total Depravity. I dont believe in Original Sin. I do appreciate learning about other believers. Thanks for answering my question.

~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ba dhúthchas riamh d'ár gcine cháidh
Gan iompáil riar ó imirt áir,
'Siubhal mar iad i gcoinnibh rámhaid
Seo libh, canaidh amhrán na bhFiann.
~~***~~~***~~
We're children of a fighting race
That never yet has known disgrace,
And as we march the foe to face,.......
We'll chant a soldier's song.

Bulldog · Mar 17, 2005

Babochka, just out of curiosty, what is the languge in the Green below your post? Is it translaiterated Arabic?

rhyddid_rose · Mar 17, 2005

To Life Immortal

Bulldog said:
Babochka, just out of curiosty, what is the languge in the Green below your post? Is it translaiterated Arabic?

The language is Irish Gaelic.

In honour of St. Patrick's Day I posted part of second verse of The Soldier's Song, the national anthem of Ireland. The entire song in both Gaelic in English may be found at:
http://www.div2aoh.org/anthem.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ba dhúthchas riamh d'ár gcine cháidh
Gan iompáil riar ó imirt áir,
'Siubhal mar iad i gcoinnibh rámhaid
Seo libh, canaidh amhrán na bhFiann.
~~***~~~***~~
We're children of a fighting race
That never yet has known disgrace,
And as we march the foe to face,.......
We'll chant a soldier's song.

Dumb Question #784

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