yod

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Far be it from me to try to convince you that people can be called differently from you to live out their faith into their lives in different ways from the way you are called to, or that G-d can be trusted to have His Way with His own, no matter what we individuals think about how they are living their faith, no matter who they are or where they are at.


ah but here is the big difference....

I've never said that being kosher was "sin". No one has judged your observance of Torah to be wrong so there is nothing to be defensive about, is there?

I could argue both sides of the debate. There is a balance which can be crossed by both sides. When we equate non-kosher to being non-torah-observant and then call it "sin" then we are judging them to be sinners in voluntary rebellion against G-d.

This implies that they are not even saved because what saint can be in voluntary rebellion against G-d?

That is condemnation...and it is exactly what PG is experiencing if he wants to eat shrimp.

There is therefore to be no condemnation for those in Messiah Yeshua for their diet. Only the works of the flesh can be condemned and there is an extensive list of those in the NT which doesn't mention diet.

 
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visionary

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Only the works of the flesh can be condemned and there is an extensive list of those in the NT which doesn't mention diet.
One of the seven deadly sins is gluttony. One of the works of the flesh is stuffing thy face. Should not all the works of the flesh be to honor the Lord in all His commandments?
 
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ShirChadash

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yod said:



ah but here is the big difference....

I've never said that being kosher was "sin". No one has judged your observance of Torah to be wrong so there is nothing to be defensive about, is there?


Actually, yes you have. You began by insinuating that people who follow Kosher do so in order to "gain brownie-points with G-d." You claimed people who dare to call themselves "Torah-observant" think they are "more righteous" than others in the Body. (and funny enough, you make a huge issue over anyone choosing to use that term to describe their intended walk and stands, and yet then you turned around and declared that we should have no problem calling ourselves Christians, because, after all, it's just a "term" and "semantics" :doh:You are extremely inconsistent, yod. )

I could argue both sides of the debate. There is a balance which can be crossed by both sides. When we equate non-kosher to being non-torah-observant and then call it "sin" then we are judging them to be sinners in voluntary rebellion against G-d.
Your understanding of Torah-observant is clearly very different from that of many of those who post here. And our point of view and understanding is rightfully ours every bit as much as your pov and understanding is rightfully yours. Yet, and this is so funny, not one person has attacked you except... maybe... maybe Shimshon. And you continue to beat this dead horse, hoping for a different response than the one you have gotten before. You do not understand where I am coming from and you do not understand where others are coming from... if you did, you would not paint us so inaccurately. But alas, apparently you needn't do so alone... it seems PG has picked up the torch.

This implies that they are not even saved because what saint can be in voluntary rebellion against G-d?
you tell me? Is there not one area of your life in which you are not yet perfectly obedient in what He has asked of you? -- in which you sin, even though you know you are sinning and you don't want to, but yet you do? I know I fail, sin, don't run the race, run backwards even in so very many areas/ways, I can't begin to recount them.
That is condemnation...and it is exactly what PG is experiencing if he wants to eat shrimp.
I have yet to see anyone condemn or even take him to task for anything in this thread... except me, for his choice of posting tactics. Show me... show me what man has condemned him here for eating shrimp.

There is therefore to be no condemnation for those in Messiah Yeshua for their diet. Only the works of the flesh can be condemned and there is an extensive list of those in the NT which doesn't mention diet.

Again, show me who condemned him. If his own heart condemns him, that's his problem because how often it is that G-d's Spirit convicts and immediately the enemy of our souls jumps into the fray in order to change conviction to condemnation... don't we always say that as Christians? Well I know people in every single congregation/church I have ever attended beleive and teach that simple Truth -- and it is Truth. So if PG is feeling condemned... it isn't from any of the poster's here. Shimshon seems long gone, by the way... and again, one person does not make many/some/a few.

"Let every man be convinced within himself". I have no problem with you doing as you will, or with anyone being who they are and living out their faith as they will -- that's between you and G-d, though the teacher and perceiver in me will try to speak to some issues as to what I believe G-d has revealed to me is a better way, in Him... however, I am not hello-bent on convincing you or anyone else of anything. I stopped trying to be the Holy Spirit in other's lives years ago. You should try that, Yod... it is very freeing to trust G-d with His own. You, however, have posted here with an agenda for weeks upon weeks, and you are not at all content to allow anyone else here to peacefully and unharassedly believe and practice -- and post on their beliefs and practices freely here -- differently from you, and to the degree to which G-D has impressed upon them to.
 
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yod

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Actually, yes you have. You began by insinuating that people who follow Kosher do so in order to "gain brownie-points with G-d."

I did no such thing?!?

I said that one can not earn brownie points that way but never said that was the intent of anyone here to do so.

You claimed people who dare to call themselves "Torah-observant" think they are "more righteous" than others in the Body.

I asked if anyone thought torah-observance could make us more righteous. Big difference.

(and funny enough, you make a huge issue over anyone choosing to use that term to describe their intended walk and stands, and yet then you turned around and declared that we should have no problem calling ourselves Christians, because, after all, it's just a "term" and "semantics" :doh:You are extremely inconsistent, yod. )

you are now twisting my words in a way that violates l'shon hara.

I said I don't like that term because it communicates something we don't want to communicate. Then, I plainly explained that it says "We keep laws you don't think are relevant" to someone who doesn't understand.

Never have I spoken against torah-observance....but I have consistantly been opposed to using that as a hammer on other believers
Your understanding of Torah-observant is clearly very different from that of many of those who post here. And our point of view and understanding is rightfully ours every bit as much as your pov and understanding is rightfully yours.

ditto what I just said.

Yet, and this is so funny, not one person has attacked you except... maybe... maybe Shimshon.

Shimshon has not attacked me?

he refuses to answer my question because I've pegged his position in such a way that he can't deny it...but he didn't attack me. On the other hand, you seem to jump to answer the question for him....

Can you see why I might "think" you are agreeing with the premise I asked him to clarify?

And you continue to beat this dead horse, hoping for a different response than the one you have gotten before. You do not understand where I am coming from and you do not understand where others are coming from...

OK...back up just a couple of posts ago. I asked a very sincere and direct question. You haven't addressed that question at all yet.

I said;
Is that not the position of those who call themselves Torah-observant on this board? :scratch:

I don't think you guys actually believe that...yet you seem to want it both ways?



Your reply was that I "clearly don't understand" the position of the torah-observant on this board (I know a lot of torah-observant people who think differently than the concensus here) yet you didn't attempt to help me understand your position. Why not?


Are you being defensive because I have accurately described what you believe and you don't like it being exposed? What am I supposed to think if you avoid the question but launch into me? I'm not trying to be your enemy, I would just like someone to give me a straight answer according to the logic I've been reading here.

if you did, you would not paint us so inaccurately.

you could change whatever innacurate picture you think I'm painting by simply answering the question


But alas, apparently you needn't do so alone... it seems PG has picked up the torch.

and now you launch into him too?


Show me... show me what man has condemned him here for eating shrimp.

he obviously feels condemned and that is what I'm addressing....

I struggle so much with the kosher thing

Oh I work on keeping at least biblically kosher
but then I will eat say some turkey and be told it's not kosher
either because it was not butchered right nor did it have the right
supervision from barnyard to plate.

Even as it is I stumble Bonnie gave me a shrimp the other day and I
ate it without thinking.

I am a horrible sinner and surely destinated for the firey pits of hell. I wish I really wish there was some kind of way I could be saved from these sins. But alas I am likely eternally lost.


Again, show me who condemned him.

Anyone who would criticize his diet. (see Romans 14)


I stopped trying to be the Holy Spirit in other's lives years ago. You should try that, Yod...

is that a word from God? (it's a joke...don't blow a gasket)


You, however, have posted here with an agenda for weeks upon weeks, and you are not at all content to allow anyone else here to peacefully and unharassedly believe and practice -- and post on their beliefs and practices freely here -- differently from you, and to the degree to which G-D has impressed upon them to.


All I did was ask a question based on the logical conclusion of what is being posted in some threads around here.....if you can't answer it then don't. IF that doesn't describe your beliefs then don't be so defensive in trying to accuse me of an agenda for merely asking the question.

I'll ask again for anyone who wants to try.


If being non-kosher is equal to being non-torah-observant and therefore equal to "sin" then are we (the torah observant) not condemning everyone who doesn't observe Torah as being willfully defiant of G-d and therefore rebellious sinners?
 
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Snow Angel

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I was all ways told If you don't cook pork real good you will get worms'
No worms for me''' God Bless:
attachment.php
 
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ShirChadash

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Yod, I could bump every single thread for you on which you stated and did each of the things I have asserted -- I am by NO means the only one here aware that you have posted them and stated them and assumed and insinuated and accused others of them -- and I could show you your posts, which I am referring to. And what a waste of time it would be for me.

I have not twisted your words in any way, shape nor form. But again... fruitless discussion around the mulberry tree.

You have every right to post as you please without being harassed over your observances, choice of how you observe, choice of what you call yourself and what that term means to you, etc. And so does everyone else here.

Pork. Eat it. Or don't. Think it is sin. Or don't. "Let every man be conivinced within himself."

Case dismissed.
 
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yod

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I'm looking for direct quotes (from me) on the matter. So far this is what I've got...

In the thread "should christians be torah observant"

The point of Rav Shauls teachings on this matter is that we are not to condemn another person over their diet whether they are jew or gentile.

If your conviction is to be a vegan then so be it...but to enforce that view as if it could make one righteous would be (biblically) wrong.

that is quite a bit different from what you indicated I've said.

Again, the requirement to be kosher (or torah-observant as defined by some here) is conspicuously missing throughout ALL teachings by ALL Apostles to ALL the gentiles.

Why do you suppose that is?



Again, that condemns no one. It is a simple question which has yet to be answered.







So how can a gentile who has never been physically circumcised ever be Torah observant if they are not allowed to participate in the Passover?

more questions. So far not a single accusation or agenda being presented.

From the "What is the difference" thread.​


I have never spoken against Torah or it's observance. Wearing it on our sleeve is another matter though. I don't think that is what you are advocating
It would be better for every person to know the Torah than not to. No arguement there...
But the New Testament makes it very clear that we are declared righteous by what YESHUA has done....and we can not improve on His works with our own so it's a vain debate, imo, if someone wants to have a pepperoni pizza.


are you talking about someone whom God has declared clean by His Spirit (Acts 10) but goes to a church that meets on Sunday?

......or are you talking about someone who is godlessly wicked?


more questions...attempting to get clarification again...yet getting none

This is a gross misinterpretation of the intent of those verses. "Lawlessness" and "workers of iniquity" are godless and wicked acts.
So again I ask....are you saying this describes a CHRISTIAN who has a pepperoni pizza and goes to church on Sunday?
If you are...then you are contradicting the teachings of Rav Shaul. Is he also "lawless" and a "worker of iniquity"???



more questioning...

no emphatic statements condemning anyone's observance so far.

I give up. If you can find where I condemned anyone for torah-observance I'd really like to see that because I want to apologize.


 
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Sephania

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I think the biggest problem I see here is the lack of agreement on what is the topic? Is it salvation or the Kingdom of Heaven? Those are two different things but are being combined together and hence I believe, the reason for such disagreement.


Again, anyone's salvation is dependant only on believing that Yeshua is the promised Messiah, that he died for the sins of the world, and rose from the dead, and ascended to heaven where he is our High Priest before G-d to whom we can go to directly through him alone.

The only other thing that must be done along with this to have true Salvation, is to admit/confess you are a sinner and repent of your sins, knowing you can't walk through this world without him.

Now that is the only thing, BUT it is the kindergarten level. This can be ( and has for millinia) been done at many a deathbedside. But for those who haven't waited until the last moment have a chance at honoring him by following him.

And this seems to be where all the trouble starts. ;)

He said, "If you love me , keep my commandments", seems simple, but then you have the dilemma of "which commandments"? For those who believe that the Torah went to the wayside with the "ungrateful Jews" will tell you that his commandments are

1. Love G-d
2. Love one another, or Love your neighbor as yourself

99% of those who will tell you that have'nt an inkling that those are directly from the Torah! :)

Many are arogant enough to say this and think that they know what loving someone means and they don't need to read about how to do so. That is what the Torah teaches, about how to love G-d ( by separating yourself from the world unto him) and how to love other human beings, made in his image.

I feel that following the dietary laws has to do with Loving G-d and it isn't one-way for he first loved us, that is why he specifically wrote out what not only separated us but also the benefit of it being excellent health for our bodies.

But if you eat a shrimp, a pepperoni pizza or a possum stew, you won't lose your salvation, but is there anything you could lose?

I believe so.

Yeshua said, in Matthew 5 ( and I am sure you are familiar but some read the words and it doesn't sink in) I will preface it with the verses that come before so that it's meaning can be more profound.

13 "You are salt for the Land. But if salt becomes tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything except being thrown out for people to trample on.
14 "You are light for the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden.

Those are pretty heavy responsibilities

17 "Don't think that I have come to abolish the Torah or the Prophets. I have come not to abolish but to complete.

Very important wording here, Don't THINK! If you look into the greek word used you will see that it means to suppose , to be fooled into thinking something that isn't so (good examples can be found in Acts) .

18 Yes indeed! I tell you that until heaven and earth pass away, not so much as a yud or a stroke will pass from the Torah -- not until everything that must happen has happened.

19 So whoever disobeys the least of these mitzvot and teaches others to do so will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven.

But whoever obeys them and so teaches will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Notice that both , the obedient and the disobedient of the least mitzvot are both in the kingdom of heaven?

But we know that those who break "greater" mizvot are not going into the kingdom:


Don't you know? that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of G-d? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of G-d. (1 Cor 6:9-10)


Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of G-d. (Gal 5:19-21)

But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Messiah and of G-d. (Eph 5:3-5)

But seek ye firstthe kingdom of G-d, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

His ( Yeshua's) righteouness was found in his obedience.

So as you can see, Kashrut is not in the list of things that will keep you out of heaven, or the kingdom of heaven, BUT there is a order in that kingdom else Yeshua wouldn't have stated so in using the terms, least and great. Now some may say that you are doing this and liken it to the P'rushim, but he addressed that in the next verses of Matt 5. But notice he said, your rigtheousness? :)

20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness is far greater than that of the Torah-teachers and P'rushim, you will certainly not enter the Kingdom of Heaven!

So we have to be doing it for the right reason, and cannot fall to one side ( don't follow at all) or the other ( follow and make a big production out of it) but like prayer, we do it only to please him, and no one else.
BUT we are admonished about teaching as well. So if someone asks (and this is a discusison board about such things) , we must speak the truth! If we don't even if we follow these mitzvahs but tell others it's OK to not do so, we fall into that least in the kingdom catagory.

And I for one want to be closest to my L-RD as possible. :bow:
 
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yod

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Then we are in agreement of principle. My only disagreement is how kashrut is being interpreted as "sin" and then applied like a hammer.

Romans 14


Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions.
One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only.
The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him.

Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.
6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God.
7 For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself;
8 for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord's.
9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
10 But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.
11 For it is written,
"AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME,
AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD."
12 So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.
13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this--not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother's way.
14 I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
15 For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love. Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died.
16 Therefore do not let what is for you a good thing be spoken of as evil;
17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
18 For he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men.
19 So then we pursue the things which make for peace and the building up of one another.
20 Do not tear down the work of God for the sake of food All things indeed are clean, but they are evil for the man who eats and gives offense
21 It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles.
22 The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.
23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.
 
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Sephania

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Last I looked though, Pork was not a vegetable, which IS the subject of this disortation.

One person has faith that he may eat all things ( Meats and vegetables), but he who is weak eats vegetables only.
The one who eats (MEAT) is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat ( MEAT), and the one who does not eat (MEAT)is not to judge the one who eats ( MEAT), for God has accepted him.

So, if you are eating with someone who is a vegetarian, for the love of him do not pull out your Corned beef on Rye! But I think it goes much deeper than that, let's look.

21 It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles.

Do you also see here that it mentions wine? Most people think this means to get drunk but I don't belive that is what it means. Wine was not like water and couldn't be afforded by everyone. Now with that in mind let us examine what the word "Weak" used numerous times in this chapter actually means, shall we?

Weak - Astheneo
Meaning -
  1. to be weak, feeble, to be without strength, powerless
  2. to be weak in means, needy, poor
  3. to be feeble, sick
Now how exactly was Paul using this word? Did he mean those who ate vegetables were weak in strength? Faith? or sickly?

I think what he meant by this is the #2 definition, that they were Poor. And being poor couldn't afford meat, nor wine, and it seems that they were being made fun of for this. The L-RD accepts the poor and loves them just as much.

Blessed are the poor for theirs is the kingdom of G-d!

21 It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles.

Brother stumbles, greek word Skandalizo

Meaning

to put a stumbling block or impediment in the way, upon which another may trip and fall, metaph. to offend
  1. to entice to sin
  2. to cause a person to begin to distrust and desert one whom he ought to trust and obey
    1. to cause to fall away
    2. to be offended in one, i.e. to see in another what I disapprove of and what hinders me from acknowledging his authority
    3. to cause one to judge unfavourably or unjustly of another
  3. since one who stumbles or whose foot gets entangled feels annoyed
    1. to cause one displeasure at a thing
    2. to make indignant
    3. to be displeased, indignant
Now when we have this understanding of what that word "weak" means this verse becomes very clear:

14:3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

Despise - hold in contempt , look down upon


So from a careful scrutiny of this chapter we can see that there were some who were bringing to oneg, Good Shabbat meat, and wine and were looking down on those who couldn't afford wine, and only could bring herbs, or vegetables, and thus they were driving them out of the assembly because of their "means" not because of bringing treif things in.

Let's look at this verse if you aren't convinced yet.

14:20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.

Let me phrase this another way. Over such a little thing as if you are wealty enough to eat meat, do not separate yourselves in dispute for the kingdom is not about who can afford to eat what, but if you purposly eat a rich mans food in front of the poor to humiliate him, that is evil and not of the kingdom of G-d.

 
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iitb

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Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions.
One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only.

The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him.
Yet another possibility with these verses has to with idolatry. At that time it was a very real possibility that meat bought at a market had been sacrificed to idols, as well as an offering from a batch of wine being offered up to some foreign god. Instead of promoting isolation from the Gentiles, Paul had more of a "don't ask, don't tell" approach to whether or not meat had been sacrificed to idols. :)
 
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Bon

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iitb said:
Yet another possibility with these verses has to with idolatry. At that time it was a very real possibility that meat bought at a market had been sacrificed to idols, as well as an offering from a batch of wine being offered up to some foreign god. Instead of promoting isolation from the Gentiles, Paul had more of a "don't ask, don't tell" approach to whether or not meat had been sacrificed to idols. :)

Yes iitb,

There is a similar example in

1 Corinthians 8:1 Now concerning things offered to idols: We know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies. 2 And if anyone thinks that he knows anything, he knows nothing yet as he ought to know. 3 But if anyone loves Yahweh, this one is known by Him. 4 Therefore concerning the eating of things offered to idols, we know that an idol [is] nothing in the world, and that [there] [is] no other Elohim but one. 5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many masters), 6 yet for us [there] [is] one Elohim, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we for Him; and one Master Yahushua the Messiah, through whom [are] all things, and through whom we [live]. 7 However, [there] [is] not in everyone that knowledge; for some, with consciousness of the idol, until now eat [it] as a thing offered to an idol; and their conscience, being weak, is defiled.

Based on context of Romans chapter 14, it seems that some would not eat meat at all for fear that it might have been offered to an idol. Others believed that since an idol was nothing, they would not ask any questions when buying meat. Remember that there were over 400 pagan temples in Rome at the time!

What is being said is that they shouldn't judge one another based on this issue. The Roman assembly apparently had a division on this.

Romans 14:1 Receive one who is weak in the faith, [but] not to disputes over doubtful things.
2 For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats [only] vegetables.


Those who did not ask questions when eating the meat were condemned by those who refused to eat anything (vegetarianism) for fear it might have been offered to an idol. This passage refers to the latter as the 'one who is weak'.

We know that to eat the flesh of animals that He did not create for us to eat is an abomination in the word of Yahweh.

Isaiah 66:17 "Those who sanctify themselves and purify themselves, [To] [go] to the gardens After an [idol] in the midst, Eating swine's flesh and the abomination and the mouse, Shall be consumed together," says Yahweh.

This verse is speaking of end times .....this has not yet occured.


It's my favourite word.......CONTEXT! CONTEXT! CONTEXT! :D

Shalom from Bon
 
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