Aviv found--When will you celebrate Pesach?

Interesting:

"It was probably about the same time, that a noisy throng prepared to follow delegates from the Sanhedrin to the ceremony of cutting the Passover-sheaf. The Law had it, "he shall bring a sheaf (literally, the Omer) with the first-fruits of your harvest, unto the priest; and he shall wave the Omer before Jehovah, to be accepted for you." This Passover-sheaf was reaped in public the evening before it was offered, and it was to witness this ceremony that the crowd had gathered around the elders. Already on the 14th of Nisan the spot whence the first sheaf was to be reaped had been marked out, by tying together in bundles, while still standing, the barley that was to be cut down, according to custom, in the sheltered Ashes-Valley across Kidron. When the time for cutting the sheaf had arrived--that is, on the evening of the 15th Nisan, even though it were a Sabbath, just as the sun went down, three men, each with a sickle and basket, set to work. Clearly to bring out what was distinctive in the ceremony, they first asked of the bystanders three times each of these questions: Has the sun gone down? With this sickle? Into this basket? On this Sabbath? (or first Passover day) and lastly, Shall I reap?" Having each time been answered in the affirmative they cut down barley to the amount of one ephah, or about three pecks and three pints of our English measure. This is not the place to follow the ceremony farther--how the corn was threshed out, parched, ground, and one omer of the flour, mixed with oil and frankincense, waved before the Lord in the Temple on the second Paschal day (or 16th of Nisan). But, as this festive procession started, amidst loud demonstrations, a small band of mourners turned from having laid their dead Master in His resting place. The contrast is as sad as it is suggestive. And yet, not in the Temple, nor by the priest, but in the silence of that garden tomb, was the first Omer of the new Paschal flour to be waved before the Lord."

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Interesting thing I found out about the Kidron Valley, it used to be known as the Kings vale, which was the place that Melchesedek met Abraham, also called the Valley of Shaveh.

By Grace said:

Dates of Biblical Holidays 2005-2006


1st Unleavened Bread

Saturday March 26, 2005

א' חג המצות

7th Unleavened Bread

Friday April 1, 2005

ז' חג המצות

Shavuot

May 15, 2005

חג השבועות

​

All of the Biblical Holy Days begin at sunset on the day before the date listed and continue for 24 hours until sunset on the following day. For example, 1st Unleavened Bread is on Saturday March 26, 2004 meaning that work is forbidden from sunset on March 25 until sunset on March 26.

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So, first Seder would be on the ever 24th ( march) and that Shabbat Erev 25th would be Unleavened , so a Holy, HOLY day!

Uh, no, I am not confusing Shavuot -- feast of weeks, Pentecost -- with First Fruits. How could Shavuot be the first "sunday" after Pesach?

Here's an interesting link that might explain where I was coming from.

http://www.therefinersfire.org/first_fruits.htm

During the first century CE (Common Era, or AD) the date of the Firstfruits of the Barley Harvest was a hotly contested issue. The Pharisees maintained that the proper date would be the 16th of Aviv (also called Nisan) while the Sadducees endorsed the Sunday following the weekly Sabbath during the Hag haMatzah. The debate was centered in the wording of Leviticus 23:

And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest: And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the Sabbath the priest shall wave it. Leviticus 23:9-11

On the surface it would seem to be an obvious conclusion that the Sadducees were right, for everyone knows that the day following the Sabbath is Sunday. However, the issue is complicated by the fact that during the week of Hag haMatzah there are two Sabbaths. During the Jewish year there are seven Sabbaths known as "Shabbaton" or "high Sabbaths". These Sabbaths fall upon particular calendar days rather than on days of the week. The 15th of Aviv is the first Shabbaton during the Jewish year. It is the first day of Hag haMatzah and the Sabbath that the Pharisees felt that Leviticus 23:11 spoke of. Besides the substantiation that Yeshua rose from the dead on a Sunday, and He is called "the firstfruits of those that rise from the dead" (1Cor.15:20-23), it can be established from Leviticus 23 that the Sadducees were correct:

And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the Sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven Sabbaths shall be complete: Even unto the morrow after the seventh Sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the LORD. Leviticus 23:15-16

The only way that it could be guaranteed there would be both seven Sabbaths and fifty days is to use the calculations of the Sadducees.

Historically, this was the day that Israel went down into the Red Sea (Sea of Suf) and emerged alive on the other side after G-d had parted the waters and allowed them to cross over on dry land. Later that morning, when the Egyptians were allowed to enter in after the Israelis, God caused the water to return to its normal state, killing the Pharaoh and his army. The death of Pharaoh ended his rights of ownership of the children of Israel.

According to Genesis 47:13-26, Pharaoh owned all the people of Egypt except the Egyptian priests, which would include the Jewish slaves. In order for the children of Israel to go to the Promised Land, they would have to be set free from the Pharaoh’s ownership. Moses, following God’s instruction, had only requested of Pharaoh that the people be allowed to go three days journey into the wilderness to hold a feast unto God. Pharaoh transgressed his own commandment of allowing the people to go by pursuing them before the three days were over and was therefore responsible for his own death. If Pharaoh had waited until the end of the three days, Moses would have returned with the people, for God cannot and will not lie. With Pharaoh’s death in the midst of the Sea of Suf (and his son and heir had been killed by the angel of death during the Passover), Egypt no longer had a claim over the children of Israel and they were free to continue on to the Promise Land.

In Leviticus 23, this day is called B’Yom Haneefchem Et Ha Omer, "The Day You Bring in the Sheaf of the Wave Offering". God commanded the people, once they got to the Promised Land, to bring the firstfruits of their barley harvest as a wave offering (Lev.23:11) before Him on this day (Lev.23:10).

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Interesting info on the Feast of firstfruits and the gathering of the barley harvest

http://members.tripod.com/~BIBLE_ANSWER_MAN/index-15.html

God commanded that a curiously unique ceremony be performed during the Days of Unleavened Bread once the children of Israel had come into the promised land. Many Believers have ignored this ceremony because it does not fall on a Holyday, and is seldom discussed in sermons. The ceremony is called the Wave Sheaf Offering. In is also know as Yom HaBikkurim (Yohm Hah-Beek-kooreem = Day of Firstfruits) and it begins a fifty day period called Sfiraf HaOmer (Sfee-raht Hah-Oh-mehr’ = The Counting of the Sheaf).

Just what constituted the Wave Sheaf Offering? A casual reading of the scriptures would seem to indicate that each farmer would cut a sheaf of grain, take it to the Temple, and the Priest would somehow wave it around in a ceremony, but that was not the way it was practiced. This is a prime example of where the Scriptures do not tell the entire story, rather only the essence of the ceremony is given as a directive of when and how it was to be done. The details of the manner in which this ceremony was to be performed must have been handed down through the oral traditions of the Priesthood from generation to generation.

ZEMIRAH, this may help answer your question:

First of all, there was an argument about when this ceremony was to be performed. The Saducees (the Priests and Levites) said that the Wave Sheaf ceremony was to be performed on the day following the weekly Sabbath that fell during the Days of Unleavened Bread. This would always place the Wave Sheaf Offering on the first day of the week. Meanwhile, the Pharisees said that the Wave Sheaf ceremony was to be performed on the day following the First Day of Unleavened Bread. They considered that day to be the Sabbath which was intended in verse 11. This would mean the Wave Sheaf Offering would always be held on Nisan 16.
The controversy would not have been too serious except for the fact that the Wave Sheaf Offering becomes the basis for determining when the next Festival, Shavu’ot (Shaw-voo’oat’ = Pentecost) would fall. If one counts from the day following the weekly Sabbath, it causes Shavu’ot to always fall on a Sunday, fifty days later. If one counts from Nisan 16 it causes Shavu’ot to always fall on Sivan 6. An alternate method for counting from the day after the Sabbath brings some to a Pentecost celebration on a Monday.
This is another of those scriptural stalemates. It is the firmly held opinion of this writer that the Saducees were correct in this case. They were the Priests and Levites and they knew what the ancient practice had been since at least the time of Ezra. More importantly, the Hebrew word Shabbat (Shah-baht) is only used for the weekly Sabbath. Another word, Shabbaton (Shah-bah-tone’) is used in the three cases where Holydays are referred to by the English word Sabbath.* All of the other references to Holydays are indicated by the Hebrew words: Chag (khag = festival), chagag (khah-gahg = to dance), moed (mow-ehd = appointed time) or Kodesh Mikrah (Koh-dehsh Meek-rah = Holy Convocation). [ *It is interesting to note that the Greek New Testament scriptures always use the transliterated Hebrew word Shabbaton,” which means a high day or Holyday. In turn, this Greek word has always been translated into English as ‘Sabbath.’ This makes for a less precise rendering of the word Sabbath’ in the Greek New Testament as it can mean either the weekly Sabbath or a Holyday. One must make the determination by the context of the passage in question. However, in Hebrew the word Shabbat always means the weekly Sabbath, while the word Shabbaton always means a high Holyday.]

A further point involves the need to count the days to arrive at Shavu’ot. If God had intended Shavu’ot to always fall on Sivan 6 it seems that He would have named the day (Sivan 6) as He did with all of the ocher Holydays. By using the weekly Sabbath as the reference point it becomes absolutely necessary to count the days, since Shavu’ot can fall anytime from Sivan 6 to Sivan 12, but always on a Sunday.

http://www.geocities.com/hebrew_roots/html/hr-1-5-05.html

in our home we start the omer count on the day after the first 7th day Sabbath after the Seder... in this we conflict with our local communities

So there are only 3 members here who are abiding by the Biblical way ( IE TORAH) to determine when HaShems passover is and observing it then?

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Here's a question for you: What would you do if you wanted to observe on March 26th, yet the community you belong to is celebrating in April?

iitb said:

Here's a question for you: What would you do if you wanted to observe on March 26th, yet the community you belong to is celebrating in April?

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As I have that dilemma as well. I was just asked to a second night seder, in April. I said I would be happy to attend. I will treat it as the second pasach and glean from it what I can. But I will not take part in the festivities for Purim which will fall on the first of unleavened bread, that would be a conflict. I will most likely stay at home and feed on the word of the Lamb late into the night of the 25th.

What I am contemplating now is should I or shouldnt' I invite others to the Seder I am having. I have decided to follow the requirements in the Bible, and not the traditional seder plate.

I understand, and even agree with so much of the desire to make sure we are not violating scripture!!!

But I can't help wondering, if we are part of the Jewish community, why must we through out the traditions and customs that are an intrigal part of that community (such as the Seder service/plate)? What purpose does this serve? Even Yeshua drank wine at the Seder, very likely had the Four Cups.

Well, the only thing I was referring to for the time being is the egg, I have never liked the egg on there and I really dont' believe Yeshua had an egg to represent resurrection/new life. And it being burnt? I know it is suppopsed to possibly represent the peace offering for the second day's offering in the temple, but it has too much association with another holiday that I woulkd rather not mention

But other than that, and also missing the shank bone for I know who my Passover lamb is I would pretty much be in keeping with the other elements.

I found this article about the topic proposed. I don't always agree with that group but the article is very interesting:

http://yourarmstoisrael.org/Articles_new/articles/?page=Aviv_Barley

Well since I have now , I believe the correct understanding of Pasach and unleavened bread, looking at the poll I don't think that is correct. If Rosh Chodesh was on the March 11-12 then Pasache starts ( Nisan 14 ) on sundown on the 24th of march. The pasache is right before sundown on the 25th. And unleaveded bread begins the same time, at sundown on the 25th.

Zayit your very astute. Yes the poll is in error as Pesach is not March 26th but Chag HaMatzot is. Pesach IS the 25th Aviv 14

By Grace said:

Isn't that what the dates are in Post 61, from the Karaite website? The Pesach meal would start after sundown on the 25th? (Remember, I calculated wrong for the poll, as Torah1st pointed out.)

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I'm Sorry Jill, I forgot about that, I didn't have a chance to read through the whole thread again. I have been invited to a seder on the 25th and wanted to make sure that was the right day so I was in here double checking.

The Pesach meal would start after sundown on the 25th? (Remember, I calculated wrong for the poll, as Torah1st pointed out.)

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After sundown? Ok, I am confused again, I thought Nisan 14 begins tomorrow at sundown which is thursday 6pish. and lasts until same time + minutes or two on Friday at sundown. Now if I am understanding when the lamb was to be had it would be right before sundown on the 14th on the "crest" of going into the 15th which is the start of Chag haMotzie. The same day as the eating of the lamb and the motzah was the day they were brought out of Egypt. You start eating the unleavened bread on the 14th , not 15th to the 21st.

Now do I have that right , or do I need to look for a straightjacket???