Eschatologies of HOPE -- Seeing God's Kingdom in Today's World

GW · Apr 25, 2002

PURPOSE FOR THIS THREAD:
The historic Church has always had an eschatology of victory and hope. Catholic Amillennialists and later the Postmillennial Revivalists (Johnathan Edwards, etc) all have the same belief that the Church will triumph victorious in this age before the final consummation talked about in the historic creeds. As St. John also said, "The darkness is past; the true light now shineth!"

The apostles rightly understood that the purpose for the end of the Old Covenant Era was "that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 2:7) and that the Church is God's agent of His own glory and wisdom (Eph 3:1-11, 21). Augustine, Eusebius, the Puritans, and today's Reconstructionists all taught/teach us an eschatology of victory and triumph for the Church (and not doom and gloom).

This thread is dedicated to posting articles and testimonies of the great works and victories Christ's Kingdom is accomplishing in our world today in keeping with the futurist eschatology of Augustine, Johnathan Edwards, and even R.C. Sproul. God truly walks among us (2 Cor 6:16)!

RULES FOR THIS THREAD:
(#1) Testimonies and article links posted at this thread should be in obedience to Paul's following command:

Philippians 4:8
Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.

(#2) When posting an article link or website link, include a 1-2 sentence description of how the article shows God's rule and principles at work in our world today.

(#3) When posting testimonies, be mindful to not dominate the board with exceedingly long posts. Brevity is the soul of wit. Remember, even Paul one time preached on and on causing Eutychus to fall asleep and tumble out a three-story window (Acts 20:9).

SCRIPTURE MEDITATION FOR THREAD:
1 Chronicles 29:11
Thine, O LORD, is the greatness, and the power, and the glory, and the victory, and the majesty: for all that is in the heaven and in the earth is thine; thine is the kingdom, O LORD, and thou art exalted as head above all.

GW · Apr 25, 2002

Topic: GOD AND FAITH IN THE MARKETPLACE?

Site: Fortune.com

Article #1: "God and Business" (5-page article)
http://www.fortune.com/indexw.jhtml?channel=artcol.jhtml&doc_id=203106

Excerpt/Significance: " Bringing spirituality into the workplace violates the old idea that faith and fortune don't mix. But a groundswell of believers is breaching the last taboo in corporate America."

Article #2: "Keeping the Faith: A growing number of faith-based funds are catering to religious investors"
http://www.fortune.com/indexw.jhtml?channel=artcol.jhtml&doc_id=203634

Excerpt: "That story dates back at least as early as the 1800s, when the Quakers in England avoided investing in weapons manufacturers. In modern times, religious institutions have built their portfolios in accordance with their faith for decades. It was those institutions, Bratcher says, that helped spark the broader socially responsible investing movement..."

GW's note: this is for all of you business folk out there who are longing to see how Christ's Kingdom can be and is being extended via the marketplace.

GW · Apr 25, 2002

ONGOING RESEARCH INTO GOD AND FAITH IN MEDICINE

Site: MSN.com

Article: "The Power of Prayer in Medicine: People Who Are Prayed for Fare Better"
http://content.health.msn.com/content/article/1728.92943

Significance: Research focusing on the power of prayer in healing has nearly doubled in the past 10 years, according to David Larson, MD, MSPH, president of the National Institute for Healthcare Research, a private nonprofit agency. Even the NIH -- which "refused to even review a study with the word prayer in it four years ago" -- is now funding one prayer study through its Frontier Medicine Initiative. Although it's not his study, Krucoff says it's nevertheless evidence that "things are changing."

GW · Apr 25, 2002

Heard a report on the BBC recently about the end of the civil war in Mozambique and Christian Aid:

Site: Christian Aid
http://www.christian-aid.org.uk

Article: "Swords into ploughshares: transforming arms into art"
http://www.christian-aid.org.uk/news/swords/011220s.htm

Excerpt/Significance: Christian Aid presents an inspiring collection of sculptures created by Mozambican artists from dismantled weapons. Mozambique suffered immensely from the small arms trade during a 16-year civil war. Since a peace agreement was signed in 1992 between the government and rebel forces, Mozambique has been destroying illegally held weapons. An extraordinary project, backed by Christian Aid, has been set up to tackle this problem at community level. The 'Transforming Arms into Ploughshares' programme has collected and destroyed more than 200,000 guns, grenades and rocket-launchers. The weapons are handed over in exchange for farm tools or other equipment most commonly sewing machines, hoes, bicycles, and a vast array of construction materials. Mozambican artists from Nucleo de Arte, then use the fragments of destroyed weapons to create works of art. These are exhibited in public places and sold to support the project's operations.

GW's Note: be sure to watch the short video clip!

parousia70 · Apr 25, 2002

What a great Idea GW!

Christians need reinforcement that their faith is not in vain, that they can, and in fact are destined to, make this world a better place.

Here's one example I found:

Website: www.crosswalk.com

Article:
Teen Pact: Making a difference in America

Significant exerpt:
TeenPact classes, held in state capitols across America, create a passion for citizenship in teens.
TeenPact is a teen leadership school dedicated to its motto of developing a passion for citizenship and justice in today's youth.

P70's note:
Our Teens are going to be the next leaders, and shapers of the future. The importance of instilling in them positive ideas and ideals is priceless. These Kids need to know that they can make a this world a better place for their childern, their childerns children, and all the generations to come in our glorious "world without end, amen"

What an incredible testimony to the hope our faith indeed provides. Teaching our kids that they don't have to give up, they don't have to turn to destructive behavoir (sex, drugs, violence) because they have been given by Christ the power to create heaven on earth!!

parousia70 · Apr 25, 2002

One More for the Kids!

website: www.crosswalk.com

Article:
Raising Leaders

Exerpt:
Give your children a vision for their future. Raise them with a sense of destiny. Esther, Joseph, & David each led and even saved their generations. In our own century men like Winston Churchill and Dietrich Bonhoeffer were sovereignly used by God to provide leadership that inspired thousands. Fill your children's childhood with stories of moral leadership. Breed in them a sense of mission, not a sense of fear.

Significance:
This article is an example of todays current homeschool wave that is being spearheaded by American Christians who are scoffing at the notion of "retreat & defeat", refusing to accept the idea that "it must get worse before it can get better". Instead, they are taking their parenting responsibility seriously, recognizing their duty and destiny to change the face and direction of our culture, one kid at a time!

TheBear · Apr 25, 2002

I'm sure that the Christians who believe in the preterist view of prophecy, have many common beliefs and views with other Christians, as well. I think any type of challenge against preterism, is a little misplaced in this particular thread.

John

parousia70 · Apr 25, 2002

Site:
www.crosswalk.com

Article:
God returns to Americas public square

Exerpt:
In the days following the Sept. 11 attack on America, "pray" has become the rallying cry heard around the nation - and topics of religion and faith have surged front and center in the news. One Washington, D.C., commentator noted, "No one is asking for atheists they can interview on their talks shows" and Fox News reported Saturday, "We've seen a resurgence of public religion - Americans are rediscovering the power of faith."

Comment:
AMEN!

TheBear · Apr 25, 2002

I see some deleted posts in this thread. It was not I who deleted them. Hopefully they were deleted by the right person.

John

GW · Apr 25, 2002

Yes,

The historic eschatology of the Church has nearly always been one of great triumph of Christ's Church over all the earth before the creedal coming of Christ. Augustine and the Catholics, the Puritans, the Reconstructionists, etc -- all these Covenantal-based eschatologies tell the same story of the destined victory of God's people over the current age of paganism.

These articles on futurist postmillennialism are very helpful and hopeful, giving an optimistic outlook on the role of the Church's triumph over all things in this age:

Practicing Postmillennialism (Part I)
http://www.chalcedon.edu/report/2002mar/ventrella.shtml

Practicing Postmillennialism (Part II)
http://www.chalcedon.edu/report/2002apr/ventrella.shtml

Practicing Postmillennialism (Part IV)
http://www.chalcedon.edu/articles/0203/020322ventrella.shtml?category=all&id=1016692041

God bless!
GW

Catchup · Apr 25, 2002

I haven't time right now to read this thread...but I know I will love it. :clap:

I have no quarrel with you, that Christ is here in Spirit. He can be felt by all those, who come in contact with the LOVE that he has commanded. I believe his presence will be shown more and more until the day he arrives in Full Glory!

The battle began a long time ago

Christ will return for his victory!!!! :clap:

LOVE

Hoonbaba · Apr 25, 2002

The gospel and music from video games!?

Website: www.majesticmix.com

Link: Frequently Asked Questions

Excerpt:

Question: The way you speak of Christianity and Salvation hurts and/or offends me. I also feel it isn't very professional for a business site. What is your problem!?

Answer: Please understand that I treat everyone as equals. Just because your religious preferences and/or beliefs may be contrary to mine does not mean I have something against you. I have a great respect for all other religions and those people that stand up for what they believe in. The following is revision of my reply from an email I answered regarding these matters: "I understand that such things may hurt you, and it deeply saddens me that they do. I also understand that putting such things on my site may seem a bit unprofessional to you. However, there are a few things you must realize.

Project Majestic Mix is a direct result of how God is working in my life. This projects very existence is due to my desire to share the gospel with others and provide them with a musical masterpiece crafted by Gods Will.

My Comments:

This project was started by a believer who loves music from video games. It was started about 3 years ago (I believe) and one of his dreams was to get music from video games to fellow video game music fans. Of course it may sound silly, but the fact is millions of people play video games. And a good portion of them enjoy the music. In Japan video game music albums like these are expensive, and so the director decided to do his own arrangements of these songs (with permission of course), to come out with several cds and such at a reasonable price. The first one coming out is due in a month or so. I can't wait to get my hands on it =)

I've personally corresponded with the director and as I quoted earlier, his main purpose in doing this project is to share the gospel through video games! Creative isn't it? =)

-Jason

postrib · Apr 25, 2002

...great triumph of Christ's Church over all the earth before the creedal coming of Christ...

Doesn't the Bible teach the exact opposite of this?

I believe it says the church's triumph doesn't come until "the 1st resurrection" (Revelation 20:6), that is, the resurrection and changing of all "they that are Christ's" (1 Corinthians 15:23) into their immortal bodies, which will occur at a single point in time, at the "last trump" (1 Corinthians 15:52), at the 2nd coming of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:23, Revelation 19:11-20:6), and which will include those "beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands" (Revelation 20:4), which refers back to the events of Revelation 13.

So the church's triumph in the resurrection cannot happen before Revelation 13 and Revelation 19 are fulfilled, and neither one has yet been fulfilled.

We must hope not for victory over the earth in these mortal bodies, but for victory despite even the persecution and killing of our mortal bodies by our worldly enemies:

"Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us" (Romans 8:35-37).

"Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy" (1 Peter 4:12-13).

Hoonbaba · Apr 25, 2002

Postrib,

Please consider these passages:

Dan 2:44, Luke 1:33, Eph 3:21, and especially Matt 16:18

God bless!

-Jason

GW · Apr 25, 2002

Postrib,

Catholic Amillennialism and Great Awakening American Protestantism believes in the Church's triumph in the New Covenant Age. Here are just a few statements from Postmillennialists:

"This era of dominion will produce the worldwide transformation of society through the preaching of the gospel and individuals' widespread positive response to the message of redemption ? a continuity of dominion."

"This is not accomplished by political imposition, but spiritual transformation."

"Postmillennialists believe that evangelism is the absolute precondition to worldwide, postmillennial, theocratic success.... Thus, postmillennialism seeks the Christianization of the world by the spread of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Evangelism has priority in Christianization."

"Postmillennialism maintains that the victorious advance of Christ's kingdom in this world will take place in terms of the present peaceful and spiritual power of the gospel ...."

"Postmillennialism believes in the gradual growth and success of the kingdom of God by the power of the Holy Spirit working through the Church's preaching of the gospel."

Later we'll look at some Johnathan Edwards as well as St. Augustine. Stay tuned...

Hoonbaba · Apr 25, 2002

MORE ONGOING RESEARCH INTO GOD AND FAITH IN MEDICINE:

Can Prayer Heal?

Site: MSN.com

Article: Can Prayer Heal?

Significance: Could it be possible? Could the prayers of a handful of people help someone -- even someone on the other side of the world -- facing heart surgery?

Probing the Power of Prayer

Site: MSN.com

Article: Probing the Power of Prayer?

Significance: When Aretha Franklin crooned the words 'I'll say a little prayer for you' in the hit 1960s song she probably didn't imagine that the soulful pledge would become the stuff of serious science. But increasingly, scientists are studying the power of prayer, and in particular its role in healing people who are sick.

postrib · Apr 25, 2002

Hoonbaba:

...Please consider these passages:

Dan 2:44, Luke 1:33, Eph 3:21, and especially Matt 16:18...

Daniel 2:44 (Kingdom never destroyed) -- The church's future physical defeat under the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7, Daniel 12:7) will not equal its defeat spiritually (Romans 8:35-37, Revelation 14:13), nor will it mean that the church will not take the victory physically at the 2nd coming of Christ and rule over the earth with him during the millenium (Revelation 19-20, Revelation 2:26, 27, 29; Revelation 5:10).

Luke 1:33 (No end to the Kingdom) -- See above.

Ephesians 3:21 (Church in all ages) -- See above.

Matthew 16:18 -- Some say the saints that will be overcome by the Antichrist in the coming tribulation (Revelation 13:7-10) can't be the church because "the gates of hell shall not prevail" against the church (Matthew 16:18). But the Bible says that we Christians will still be on the earth when the Antichrist arises (Revelation 14:12-13, 20:4), and there are no Christians outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

Evil rulers have been given power to kill Christians from the very beginning of the church down until this day. It will not be any different in the great tribulation. Our dying under the Antichrist will be no different than the church's dying under the Roman emperors who persecuted them so cruelly.

Evil can prevail over our bodies, but never our spirits (Revelation 2:10).

Even though the Antichrist will be able to overcome many Christians physically, all the powers of hell will not succeed in eradicating the church from the earth, for some Christians will be "alive and remain" until the Lords 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15), and the tribulation will be shortened for their sake (Matthew 24:22).

Also, there's another way to look at Matthew 16:18. The "gates of hell" may not refer to Satans ability to attack the church (for nobody attacks with gates), but rather to his ability to keep the lost in bondage (Hebrews 2:14-15). When we preach the gospel to the lost and they are saved from hell and brought into the church, no power of hell can keep them (Acts 26:18).

The church is built upon the rock of Jesus Christ (1 Peter 2:6), who preached in hell (1 Peter 3:19, 4:6) and led those who believed out of the gates of hell and into heaven (Ephesians 4:8-10). The gates of hell did not prevail against the rock (Psalm 107:14-16).

GW

...Here are just a few statements from Postmillennialists...

On what scriptures are they based?

Hoonbaba · Apr 25, 2002

There is no antichrist anywhere in Revelation. antichrist has nothing to do with a one man global ruler. Antichrist has to do with John's epistles (1 John and 2 John). And John gives us a clear understanding of who they were. Historically they're the gnostics.

But anyway, it looks like our thread is slowly losing it's purpose

-Jason

postrib · Apr 25, 2002

...it looks like our thread is slowly losing it's purpose...

Why? Does postmillenialism consider hope antithetical to going through Revelation 13? What is our hope according to the Bible, and how can the events of Revelation 13 touch it?

GW · Apr 25, 2002

In response to Postrib's questions:

Daniel 2:44 -- expositors historically see this as fulfilled in the victorious and universal spread of the Church in this age. Satan has no power against the Church's advances (Matt 16:18-19). Jesus confirms Daniel's stone prophecy in Matthew 21:40-45.

Christ is the ruling King over the present Heaven and earth (Matthew 28:18-19) and the increase of His government has no end:

Revelation 1:5
and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.

1 Peter 3:21-22
Jesus Christ, who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, AFTER angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.

Isaiah 9:6-7
For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this.

So Jesus Christ is the ruling King over the present earth and the God of this world:

Eph 1:20-22
he raised him [Jesus] from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above ALL principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and EVERY name that is named, NOT ONLY IN THIS WORLD, but also in that which is to come: And hath put ALL things under his feet

1 Timothy 1:17
Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Dispensationalists say Christ's Kingdom was "postponed." Their justification for such a view? No one knows. Catholics and the Reformers believe Christ's kingdom and reign are present.

Now, let's get back to testimonies of the present reign and progress of the Kingdom of God today.

Eschatologies of HOPE -- Seeing God's Kingdom in Today's World

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