Justification by what?

Hoonbaba · Apr 25, 2002

Hi guys,

One brother was sharing with me about justification:

What do Catholics believe on justification? do Catholics believe justification + works? Wouldn't that take away from God's glory?

God bless!

-Jason

FOMWatts<>< · Apr 25, 2002

Yep, it sure would! :O) Works are great, but not required, but I'm not Catholic so I don;t know what the church teaches. The Bible teaches that we are justified by GOD's GRACE thorugh faith in Christ Jesus.

Romans 3:24 "They are justified FREELY by HIS GRACE through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus."

FOMWatts<><

isshinwhat · Apr 25, 2002

James 2:24
You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Galatians 5:6
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love.

1 Corinthians 13:2
...if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

We believe that nothing we ever do can make God give us his grace. It is a completely free, unmerited, undeserved gift from God that Christ won for us at Calvary. We believe that neither faith in Christ nor our good works alone will save us. We believe that to walk the path of Christ that leads to eternal life, we must bear our cross daily. That means that by faith, and through our love of Christ, not ourselves, we must do His Will. The works we say must be done are not following mindless ordinances, but doing the Will of God, whatever that may be. It will be a struggle, a cross to bear, but Christ is there to help us carry it, just a Simon was there to help Him carry His. If we drop it, God allows us to pick it up again, He doesn't step on it to weigh it down. But we must never throw it down and leave it...thank God Christ didn't.

With the Love of Christ,

Neal

Neal

Hoonbaba · Apr 25, 2002

Hm...

But what about baptism? Isn't that required for salvation? If so, then doesn't that take away from God's grace?

I personally wouldn't agree with that (since the way I see it is that we've been given the grace to receive baptism) but, I'd like to know other people's opinions.

Also, how do Catholics baptize others? Do you just pour water on someone's head and say, "I baptize you in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit"?

God bless!

-Jason

VOW · Apr 25, 2002

To Jason:

The Church teaches that justification is by FAITH through GRACE. Surprisingly enough, many Protestant denominations agree with the Church on that, when they have worked together on Ecumenism.

There are many sources of Grace. The Church teaches that the Sacraments (seven of them) endow Grace upon the recipients: Baptism, Reconciliation, Communion, Confirmation, Marriage, Holy Orders, and Rite of Healing (also called "Last Rites," but you don't have to be dying to receive this). By no means, though, are the Sacraments the ONLY sources of Grace.

We should seek God's Grace whenever we can, for it strengthens us, nourishes us, protects us, guides us, comforts us, teaches us. That is why the Church encourages frequent Confession (Reconciliation) and frequent Communion.

Think of Grace as Chocolate. You can receive Chocolate at certain times of your life, and you can wait for Chocolate to drop out of the sky just for you.....and you can also visit the Candy Store and fill up on Chocolate as often as you like. Poor analogy, but I'm sure you get the idea.

Peace be with you,
~VOW

isshinwhat · Apr 25, 2002

I personally wouldn't agree with that (since the way I see it is that we've been given the grace to receive baptism) but, I'd like to know other people's opinions.

That's the way I see, too. But strictly speaking, even a water Baptism isn't necessary if they haven't had the chance since conversion. There is a Baptism by Fire and Baptism of Desire as well. The way we put it is Salvation is bound to the Sacraments, but God is not bound to them. Do you understand that statement?

Also, how do Catholics baptize others? Do you just pour water on someone's head and say, "I baptize you in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit"?

In my case the water was poured over my head three times, once at the "of the Father" again for the Son and the Holy Spirit. This year, however, we have completed a big baptismal font, so the children and adults who are baptized are immersed three times in repetition as the names of each person in the Trinity are said..."In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit." I'm only familiar with the Latin Rite, though, not any of the Eastern Catholic Rites.

This is from the Catechism

1239 The essential rite of the sacrament follows: Baptism properly speaking. It signifies and actually brings about death to sin and entry into the life of the Most Holy Trinity through configuration to the Paschal mystery of Christ. Baptism is performed in the most expressive way by triple immersion in the baptismal water. However, from ancient times it has also been able to be conferred by pouring the water three times over the candidate's head.

1240 In the Latin Church this triple infusion is accompanied by the minister's words: "N., I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." In the Eastern liturgies the catechumen turns toward the East and the priest says: "The servant of God, N., is baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." At the invocation of each person of the Most Holy Trinity, the priest immerses the candidate in the water and raises him up again.

Hoonbaba · Apr 25, 2002

Think of Grace as Chocolate. You can receive Chocolate at certain times of your life, and you can wait for Chocolate to drop out of the sky just for you.....and you can also visit the Candy Store and fill up on Chocolate as often as you like. Poor analogy, but I'm sure you get the idea.

Chocolate!? LOL!!! I think I get it.

But what I'm wondering is this: If I weren't baptized in the blessed trinity, then would I go to hell, even though I've been walk'n with Christ for a while? By the way, none of the OT saints were baptized, and neither was the guy who died on the cross next to Jesus.

God bless!

-Jason

Hoonbaba · Apr 25, 2002

Originally posted by isshinwhat

That's the way I see, too. But strictly speaking, even a water Baptism isn't necessary if they haven't had the chance since conversion. There is a Baptism by Fire and Baptism of Desire as well. The way we put it is Salvation is bound to the Sacraments, but God is not bound to them. Do you understand that statement?

Uhmm....I don't understand it. You said baptism isn't necessary if they didn't have the chance since conversion? Doesn't that go against Catholic teachings on baptism in it's relation with salvation?

-Jason

VOW · Apr 25, 2002

To Jason:

Nope, the absence of Baptism by someone who, through the Grace of God has been made aware of the Truth, is covered through "Baptism of Desire."

There's no conflict with the teaching of "Baptism of Desire." In fact, it is just a way to explain the amazing capacity for forgiveness, understanding, and compassion of our Almighty God.

Peace be with you,
~VOW

isshinwhat · Apr 25, 2002

From the Catechism:

1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.[59] He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.[60] Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.[61] The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."[62] Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

Hoonbaba · Apr 25, 2002

Originally posted by VOW
To Jason:

Nope, the absence of Baptism by someone who, through the Grace of God has been made aware of the Truth, is covered through "Baptism of Desire."

There's no conflict with the teaching of "Baptism of Desire." In fact, it is just a way to explain the amazing capacity for forgiveness, understanding, and compassion of our Almighty God.

Peace be with you,
~VOW

Hi VOW,

Can you explain the baptism by desire?

I don't know what this means.

-Jason

VOW · Apr 25, 2002

To Jason:

Neal posted this earlier, from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, but it's good stuff and bears repeating:

1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."[62] Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

If you believe in the Salvation through the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ, and you have made known your wish to be Baptized (and just giving a "thumbs up" to God is adequate!), and should you die before the Baptism can occur, this is "Baptism by Desire." Now, if you had been OFFERED Baptism, and declined, then you'd be in questionable status.

"Baptism by Desire" is nothing to be lightly dismissed, either. See, when you study Catholicism, and you make known to the Church that you wish to become Catholic, you aren't Baptized the next day. NOPE! They have an actual schedule of classes you take now in most parishes, where you have to STUDY what the Church teaches, so you can understand, and better yet, ACCEPT these teachings with all your heart.

FYI, back in the Stone Age when I converted, I had actual one-on-one teaching from our parish priest. I had study materials, and yes, he did ask me questions I had to answer correctly, and I had to memorize prayers.... but the sessions with him were also a LOT of conversation. We discussed the material I had studied.

Basically, Jason, you have to CONVINCE the Church that yes, you do want to become a Catholic!

Once you have made that step in your heart, though, and you are putting forth the effort to join the Church, you have entered into the realm of "Baptism by Desire."

Peace be with you,
~VOW

Hoonbaba · Apr 25, 2002

But would the Baptism of Desire apply for protestant Christians? In other words, if my friend were to become a Christian today, and he were to die tomorrow, and he didn't get a chance to receive a baptism, then would he go to heaven or hell?

-Jason

VOW · Apr 25, 2002

To Jason:

Hon, re-read what the Catechism states. It's wordy and written in legal-ese, but it's good stuff.

"Baptism by Desire" can even include those people of the world, past and present, who never even had the opportunity to hear the Gospel.

I'm sure a religious scholar can give you all the heretofores, allbeits, insomuches, and aforementioneds, but it boils down to is this: We trust implicity in the generosity, the compassion, the mercy, and the incomprehensible love of the Father Almighty.

(and the answer to your question is: Yes)

Peace be with you,
~VOW

Kotton · Apr 25, 2002

Originally posted by Hoonbaba
But would the Baptism of Desire apply for protestant Christians?
-Jason

Baptism of Desire would aply to anyone wishing to follow Christ. I don't see it as only a Catholic issue.

Kotton

Hoonbaba · Apr 25, 2002

Originally posted by VOW
I'm sure a religious scholar can give you all the heretofores, allbeits, insomuches, and aforementioneds, but it boils down to is this: We trust implicity in the generosity, the compassion, the mercy, and the incomprehensible love of the Father Almighty.

LOL!!! heretofores, albeits, insomuches!! haha I've seen plenty of those and it's starting to give me headaches =P I tend to have trouble reading the Catechisms.

and the answer to your question is: Yes

LOL!!! Do you realized I asked 2 questions??

I first asked, "Does this apply for protestants?"

And the 2nd question I asked was, "If he were to die tomorrow, would he go to heaven or hell?" And your response: "Yes"

LOL =)

So the Catholic church teaches that as long as one has a desire to follow God and do his will, then he will go to heaven, (as long as it's genuine). Is this correct?

-Jason

VOW · Apr 25, 2002

To Jason:

Would you hit me if I said "yes"?

LOL.

You have the concept of "Baptism by Desire" perfectly now.

And I do know what you mean about the Catechism. I get much more out of it if I read a "civilian" explanation first, and THEN go back to the legal-ese. Sort of like taking the scenic route instead of the expressway.

Peace be with you,
~VOW

kulkaramkes · Apr 25, 2002

Jason,

You sound very confused, bewildered, and fearful. I would say that instead of asking people your questions, go to God about them. All this talk isn't really that necessary is it? God DOES speak to us doesn't He? God Bless you.

Hoonbaba · Apr 25, 2002

Originally posted by VOW
To Jason:

Would you hit me if I said "yes"?

LOL.

You have the concept of "Baptism by Desire" perfectly now.

And I do know what you mean about the Catechism. I get much more out of it if I read a "civilian" explanation first, and THEN go back to the legal-ese. Sort of like taking the scenic route instead of the expressway.

Peace be with you,
~VOW

Legalese?? LOL

-Jason

Hoonbaba · Apr 25, 2002

Originally posted by kulkaramkes
Jason,

You sound very confused, bewildered, and fearful. I would say that instead of asking people your questions, go to God about them. All this talk isn't really that necessary is it? God DOES speak to us doesn't He? God Bless you.

On the contrary. I'm perfectly fine. I just want to know how Catholics understand salvation.

God bless!

-Jason

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