O/F OSAS vs. fall from grace

Romans 9:8 "...whom He will He hardeneth." Followed by the verses about the common vessels and the vessles made for glory. He didn't harden pharoah's heart all the time though.

My view is simply that He could force people to be saved but He doesn't. This is the only point I have. We know that Her is unwilling that anyone should perish, but wants everyone to come to knowledge and repentance, but infinite wisdom and knowledge put Him in a position where He can't help but know who the ones are who will reject Him, and He lets it happen and that's ok. It is by their choice, just He foreknew it and allowed in.

Here is the section from my text dealing with Romans 9:

To understand the Romans 9 passage, let us first come to understanding of the concept of "total depravity". One of the primary posits of "Irresistible Grace" is that man is completely, totally, depraved; so much so, that he cannot ever even consider the possibility of accepting Christ as Lord and Savior. But does Scripture support that view? Consider Romans 1:18ff, "For the wrath of God is revealed from Heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for GOD MADE IT EVIDENT TO THEM. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, SO THAT THEY ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE. For even though THEY KNEW GOD, they did not honor Him as God, or give thanks; but they became futile in their speculations, AND THEIR FOOLISH HEART WAS DARKENED. Professing to be wise they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed crawling creatures. Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity... they exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions... and because they did not acknowledge God any longer, God GAVE THEM OVER to a depraved mind".

In Romans 1 it says very clearly and undeniably that God is revealed to all men. It is then up to each to accept Him or reject Him. Clearly, although "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, there are NONE righteous" (Romans 3), God reveals Himself to each person, in enough measure that the person HAS the ability to choose. Thus the "They are without excuse". It also undeniably says that God, because of their conscious rejection of Him and embracement of "the lie", gives them over to a depraved mind. Does this mean that their hardened hearts are their own fault? Consider Hebrews 3:13, "Lest any of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin". The Greek for "hardened" here is "skleruno", which means "made stubborn or obstinate". The same word as used in Romans 9:18; which, apparently indicates that God does the "hardening and softening", but in context with Romans 1, we gain the deeper understanding that the hardening is a result of their conscious choice (their heart darkened because they chose "the lie"), and the "God hardens whom He desires" is understood to mean that He gives over to a base and depraved mind those who reject Him.

Technically, in Exodus 10:1 it reads "made heavy", and verses 10:20, 27, 11:10 and 14:8 mean "made strong". Was Pharaoh a helpless pawn in the machinations of an absolutely-controlling-God? Or was his "hardening" because of his choice to "embrace the lie"? It is theologically sound to understand the latter. God "hardens" people in the sense that He honors their choice to reject Him and gives them over to a base and depraved mind.

Now, if God does not predestine, then what of the passage in Romans 9 that speaks of "pottery"? It clearly says that some are created "for honor", and some "for common". Let us assume that they are on the potter's wheel because of their choice to submit to Him---they are already saved (as we have already established in this discourse). 1Corinthians 12:4ff tells us that God uses each of us as He chooses, different parts of the body, for the common good, as He chooses. Some for honor, some for common. Perfect harmony, the clay submits to the potter to use as He wills.

Verse Romans 9:23, the "endured with patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction"? What caused them to BE "vessels of wrath", and to BE "prepared for destruction"? Consider the parable of Matthew 13:24ff; the landowner said "Allow the tares (weeds, grass) to grow with the wheat, but in the harvest the wheat will be gathered and the weeds burned." Thus the weeds were "endured with patience", PERFECTLY in harmony with 2Peter3:9! The un-submitted vessels-of-clay, He endures for now, but their rebellious state assures their future destruction (Matt13:30,41-42, 25:32,41; Rom2:5). Is there anything in this passage that indicates God overrides our will to salvation? No. Is there anything in this passage that indicates God honors free will? Consider 9:32 "They did not achieve righteousness, because they pursued it by works rather than faith". Clearly they made the wrong choice. Verse 33 demonstrates that He was a stumbling stone because they did not believe. Continuing in chapter 10, "They have (wrong) zeal for God; not knowing about God's righteousness, seeking to establish their own, they did not submit themselves to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes." Belief is a choice, very clearly written in this passage. It is not predestined.

He could force people to be saved but He doesn't. He is unwilling that anyone should perish, but wants everyone to come to knowledge and repentance, but infinite wisdom and knowledge put Him in a position where He can't help but know who the ones are who will reject Him, and He lets it happen and that's ok. It is by their choice, He just foreknew it and allowed it.

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I believe we are in agreement, with each other and with Scripture...

For someone who believes in "predestined-election", or "irresistable grace", that God DOES force ("helkuo-drag"--- elsewhere in the text I deal with this word, too...) certain people to salvation, if nevertheless he/she understands the nature of "fellowship/lordship salvation", then I am at peace; it is a non-issue. BUt for someone who believes the responsibility of salvation is ENTIRELY on God's shoulders, then it matters greatly.

"THerefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain of His calling and election. ...for in this way the entrance of Heaven will be abundantly supplied to you..."

"BUt for someone who believes the responsibility of salvation is ENTIRELY on God's shoulders, then it matters greatly. "

Hmm..I just started reading this thread due to my absence..so you believe we have power over God?

you believe we have power over God?

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Certainly not. The only question is, "what is His Will"?

If are predestined for salvation or damnation, then we are helpless pawns in the machinations of an absoluetly-controlling God. There is no responsibility, for it is GOD who decides.

OTOH, suppose God's will is to allow us a CHOICE. In Eden God presented Adam and Eve with two forbidden trees. Adam chose to sin. Since that time, God has always presented following Him as a choice.

Jesus died on the Cross, "that whosoever believes should not perish but have eternal life". Jesus died "to provide justification to all men" (Rom5). And "as many as receive Him become children of God" Jn1. So we may not be able to "resist His will", it may "not depend on the man who wills or runs but on God who has mercy" (Rom9:16,19), but the will of God is Jesus FOR ALL WHO WILL BELIEVE!

Thus, he who accepts Jesus as Lord, becomes God's chosen. He who rejects God has not thwarted His will, but has chosen unwisely as God has allowed him to do...

"Since that time, God has always presented following Him as a choice. "

So you don't believe in inherited sin?

"He who rejects God has not thwarted His will, but has chosen unwisely as God has allowed him to do... "

Yes, but it also written that God chooses us, not the other way around

So you don't believe in inherited sin?

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'Course!

Yes, but it also written that God chooses us, not the other way around Jn15:16

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Do you understand the meaning of the parable in Matt22:1-14? Why does he conclude with, "For many are called, but few are chosen"? Who, by the end of the parable, had been called? And who had been chosen?

What did Jesus mean in Jn15:6?

"'Course! "

Do, or do not?
If you do then we don't have a choice

"What did Jesus mean in Jn15:6?
"

In this he is talking about christians, not people who are nonchristians. Hence this is an irrelevant verse. In matt 22? This parable is about the justice of God and his mercy, not about salvation at all.

Have you not read romans chapter 3? "What is some did not have faith? Will their lack of fiath nullify God' faithfulness? Not at all.." God saves, not man.

HA! You're "LIVE"! Errr, that is, online now...

If you do then we don't have a choice

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That doesn't follow. There really is no support of "total depravity", not in the sense that "we are so-far-gone that we have no ability to surrender to God". Paul says "God made (Himself) evident to them" (Rom1:19), and that "they are without excuse" (1:20). He says "faith comes from hearing". You contend that "faith-unto-salvation" comes from GOD, disputing what Paul wrote.

In this he is talking about christians, not people who are nonchristians. Hence this is an irrelevant verse.

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Oh, Louis, it's not irrelevant at all. Did you see my last posts over on "Salvation and Details" (click here)?

Matt22:1-14 is ENTIRELY about salvation. The "wedding feast" is an allegory for HEAVEN (see the Rev19:9 reference); at the end, EVERYBODY had been invited (in harmony with ALL have been called*), but only those who ACCEPTED the invitation, AND clothed themselves with the King's garment (IE put on RIGHTEOUSNESS), ONLY THEY became the CHOSEN. It cannot be clearer than the last verse: "For many are called, but few are chosen". If "Predestined-Election" was true, then ALL who are called WILL BE the chosen. But that's just not the case, is it?

I don't understand what you are saying about Rom3. God is faithful, and will NEVER forsake us (Heb13:5). But if WE forsake HIM, nevertheless He remains faithful, even though we perish. 2Tim2:11-13 (Or are you saying that "faithless deniers-of-Christ shall still REIGN with Him???" Noooot!)

If God saves, in spite of man's will, why is Jn1:12 worded as such??? (Don't retort by saying "verse 13 says IT WAS HIS WILL", clearly by RECEIVING Him, by BELIEVING in His name, a choice, they received the GRACE of salvation---so their-being-saved was NOT of themselves, but the will-of-God-which-was-JESUS-ON-THE-CROSS-for-all-who-BELIEVE...)

"You contend that "faith-unto-salvation" comes from GOD, disputing what Paul wrote. "

No, its fits in perfectly with what Paul wrote. God is the one who chooses, not us.Look at chapter 3..."These is no one righteous, not even one; there is NO NOE who undersands, NO ONE who seeks God."

OOPS: forgot the "*". ANd this won't let me edit.

The "all have been called" reffs: Rom5:18, "so then through one sin (Adam's sin) there resulted condemnation to ALL MEN ("Pas Anthropos"), even so through one act of rightesousness (Jesus-on-the-Cross) there resulted justification to ALL MEN ("Pas Anthropos"). 2Pet3:9, 1Tim2:1-4

"If God saves, in spite of man's will, why is Jn1:12 worded as such??? "

Umm...that doesn't contrast my view at all. All those who recive him have the right to be childern of God by beieving in his name. That believe comes from God, the author and completer of our faith.

That belief comes from God, the author and completer of our faith.

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I wish you would give the references. "Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance, and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the AUTHOR ("Archegos": Leader, the HEAD) and PERFECTOR ("Teleiotes": one who has in his own person raised faith to its perfection and so set before us the highest example of faith) of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the Cross, despising ("Kataphroneo": despising, thinking little of) the shame, and has sat down at the riht hand of the throne of God."

I do not believe this verse says "He AUTHORS faith-unto-salvation". Because the Greek says otherwise, and if it DID it would contradict Rom10:17, "Faith (-unto-salvation) comes from HEARING". Which is it? From hearing? Or unilaterally-from-God? Paul meant what he said...

Dagnabbit, I didn't give the reference either. :o
Heb12:1-2

Sorry 'bout that...

Yeah, and the Greek references came from Strongs King James Authorized Greek Concordance.

This would be easier if the "edit" worked on my computer. I'm not a computer whiz, don't know how to make it work...

"I do not believe this verse says "He AUTHORS faith-unto-salvation". Because the Greek says otherwise, and if it DID "

no..."Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think [of himself] more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. "

God gives out faith.

"1Cr 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. "

Hey, Louis. You missed my post on faith. There seem to be different kinds of faith. There is a kind of faith given by God, which is a spiritual gift---and THIS kind of faith is not given to everyone (1Cor12:9a---"To ANOTHER faith...").

Then there is a kind of faith that IS given to everyone, Rom12:3, a "measure of faith".

But---the faith that achieves salvation, THIS faith seems to come from the person him(her)self! Which fully supports the Scripture, "For as many RECEIVED Him", as IF it was a choice! And a choice is the only way that, "therefore they have no excuse", WORKS! If there was no choice, then there would certainly be an excuse!

"Now, faith (-unto-salvation) comes from HEARING (the Word of God)". Paul wrote that very clearly in Rom10:17. If Paul had believed that "faith-unto-salvation" was a "unilateral gift-from-God", he wouldn't have said "comes from hearing", but "comes from God". I think Paul meant what he said, and said what he meant.

...why do I have "...an elephant's faithful one hundred percent" running through my head???

Romans 1, "God is revealed to all men".
Romans 2 "Don't be a hypocrit"
Romans 3 "All have sinned, none righteous" (of themselves)
Romans 4 "Justification by faith" (WHICH? From God? Or faith-proceding-from-believers'-hearts?)
Romans 5 "He showed His love, in that He died for ALL MEN THE WORLD ('Pas Anthropos'), WHILE we were lost/sinners/corrupt/unsaved!"
Romans 6 "Born again---baptism (immersion) into Jesus!"
Romans 7 "War between the old and the new natures"
Romans 8 "CHOOSE to walk in the Spirit,that the old nature remains dead! Allow the spirit of Christ to reign in you! IF you are 'IN CHRIST', THEN He predestines you to maturity, CHRISTLIKENESS!"
Romans 9 "Do not be like Israel, who did not pursue righteousness by faith. If you are on the Potter's wheel, He will use you either for honor or for common; but if you are 'a vessel of wrath prepared for destruction', He will endure with patience, wishing that you will come to Him..."
Romans 10 "Faith-unto-salvation comes from hearing the Gospel, which brings conviction, which brings belief. And ALL WHO BELIEVE WILL BE SAVED!"
Romans 11 "The natural branches (Isrealites) were broken off, and you a wild branch (SINGULAR!) were grafted in. BEWARE---YOU CAN BE BROKEN OFF (and/or the natural branches can be grafted in again...)
Romans 12 "Dedicated service, pursue love not hypocrisy, treat each other right"
Romans 13 "Be subject to government"
Romans 14 "Conscience, consideration for brethren"
Romans 15 "Build each other up"
Romans 16 "greetings to various people"

The book of Romans has so many answers about the whole Christian perspective!

"There seem to be different kinds of faith. "

Hmm..did you check the greek reference on that..I'm thinking they are the SAME word. There are not different kinds of faith.

This thought seems to be something you created to fit into your theory

"The book of Romans has so many answers about the whole Christian perspective! "

Yes it does, one of the main books I use to show its God that saves, not man

Hmm..did you check the greek reference on that..I'm thinking they are the SAME word. There are not different kinds of faith.

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I'm pretty sure they all use the word "pistis" or very similar. I was going from Rom12, where it says, "To another, faith". This is a type of faith that is clearly given to some, but not others. (The passage concludes with the "ME" negative-rhetorical, properly translated: "All are NOT apostles, ARE they! All do NOT speak in tongues, DO they!") Contextually, He give different spiritual gifts as He decides they will best serve...

We just can't get past what Paul says about a particular kind of faith, "faith-unto-salvation". Paul says that comes from "hearing the word of God". If Paul thought THAT kind of faith was a GIFT from God, he woulda said it was a gift.

BTW, I'm reasonably sure that the Greek for "hair" is the same, be it "red", "blonde", "black", "brunette"...

Yes it does, one of the main books I use to show its God that saves, not man

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It is "God who saves, not man". Yours and my disagreement is simply in application. You say "God saves unilaterally, whom HE chooses", I say "God saves those who receive Him". A difference that matters not to people who are truly saved, but matters greatly to those who think they can "coast and let GOD maintain their salvation".

One view encourages dilligence and cultivation of the "fellowship-which-IS-salvation", the other encourages, well, apathy...

IN my most-humble-opinion...

"Contextually, He give different spiritual gifts as He decides they will best serve...
"

but it says there are only different MEASURES of faith given, not different types of faith. I really don't see any biblical evidence to draw this conclusion at all other then to support what you think its a right theory about salvation.

"BTW, I'm reasonably sure that the Greek for "hair" is the same, be it "red", "blonde", "black", "brunette"... "

Yes, but you're saying it is different types of faith, the anaology would be more like transportation and you saying certain types are cars, buses, airplanes, etc. There just isn't any biblical evidence for that view.

"A difference that matters not to people who are truly saved, but matters greatly to those who think they can "coast and let GOD maintain their salvation".
"

No, there is no difference except you limit God's power. No where ever will you find in my view, or anyone's that is simlar to mine, saying you can coast through the christian life. That's not my stance so please don't put words in my mouth. God saves, humans don't. YOu're saying we create our salvation by choosing him. The accepting of an invitation doesn't validate it. You can accept all you want, but if you're not invited, you're not going. So again, please don't put words in my mouth. You are able to have an opinoin, but NOT when it involves distorting mine. That's bearing false witness