Can a Person Lose Salvation?

Were Ananias and Sapphira's sins paid for by Christ?

Jesus said we must be born again.
Once someone is born again, they cannot be unborn.
He alone is able to keep us....


John 10:28
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
(KJV)

sawdust said:

Ooops! Did I just hear the drop of a little volition in there. Guess only unbelievers get to use their volition. Us poor believers are just doomed to heaven.

peace ... (or is that in pieces)

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HEHEHE, I think what that means is that God will harden those who are not of the Elect. God is just and we ALL DESERVE hell, but HE CHOSE, not we, to show HIS mercy to SOME, not all. Therefore, those that he shows His mercy to were softened to that message for God is NOT a failure. Those whom He passed over, were hardened in their sin. We all CHOSE sin, but HE CHOSE to save SOME of those that CHOSE sin, by giving them faith and by calling their name...read Psalms 105, or any part of the Bible, does ANYTHING happen without the Soveriegnty of God??? If ti does, then HE is not soveriegn, that is all I am saying, that no man will come to the Father but by Christ, and that GOD MUST call Him, and THAT call, BY GOD, is without repentance..."gar charisma kai klesis theos amatameletos", "For the gifts and the calling OF GOD are without repentance." Romans 11:29

klesis:


1) a calling, calling to

2) a call, invitation

a) to a feast b) of the divine invitation to embrace salvation of God

IF our will, or volition, is more powerful than the calling of God, then our will is soveriegn over His, and He is not soveriegn. All things come to pass because He has purposed it for HIS GLORY, and if something can happen outside of His purpose then He is not Soveriegn, but HS IS and what He purposes, HAPPENS.

You guys are more than welcome to go about your life worried of where you will spend eternity, but I will walk in the grace and love, and APPROVAL of God my Savior because HE has saved me, not the goodness of my own works, and HE will perservere me as well, by His own power, He will not rely on mine.

Blessings,

FOMWatts<><

pro_odeh said:

Yes, salvation does not rest on works at all. It is a completely free gift from God! But it is a gift, and we have to recieve it. We have to believe! salvation does not come to all people no matter how they live!!

2 Timothy 3:15
And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Through faith!! What is faith? that is another question...
But we know that we can loose faith, and loose salvation.
God bless!

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I agree with most of what you have said, the only difference is that I believe also provides the means and desire for our "accepting" His call or acknowledgement of His salvation...and the reason I believe this is because BEFORE the foundation of the earth was laid, He chose us IN Him, to be holy and blameless in His sight through Christ Jesus...it wasn't because we chose or accepted Him, it was because HE CHOSE. I do, however, agree that all of the Elect WILL CHOOSE Him and therefore have accepted the gift of faith, but only by His power...

Also, I know that we can not lose the faith which God has given...we CAN lose our human faith that we all have, elect and reprobate (the faith in people, in the church, in our brethren) the faith that come from God can not be lost, because HE places it there and He sees that NOTHING snatches us from His mighty hands...can YOU pry the grip of God??? I sure can't. You can't lose something you didn't earn...if someone gives you a gift, do they take it back??? And sense we are in agreement on the acceptance part, short of how that comes to be, then you must agree that God is not an indian-giver, if it is a free gift and His love for His elect is UNCONDITIONAL, meaning no strings attached, and He also sees us as HOLY AND BLAMELESS through our faith in Christ, then He has no reason to take it back.

Blessings,

FOM<><

DrBubbaLove said:

Besides going further off topic, we cannot present a proper defense against something if we do not understand what the attack supposedly is. No one can debate anything unless both parties agree what it is they are debating and no party should tell another what "their" position is. Both parties state a position then you debate it.


Many protestants (and unfortunately many Catholics) have a very limited and erroneous view of our faith. That is not a slight against anyone's knowledge or experience with Catholics in life. We are a Church full of sinners and people will say and do wrong things. I was a protestor most of my life and thought I knew what Catholic meant. There was even a time I was convinced the Church was just another cult. I was wrong.



The rebuttals here against the Church are distracting and a little entertaining, but it makes no point in furthering this particular discussion. Sweeping statements about the Church and the topics/responses those will invoke from Catholics are too broad for a single thread. If somone wants to debate specific Truths, Traditions or practices of the Church, I suggest we start another thread.

When we explain our view of OSAS and reference some "why behind the why" we believe as we do, you can only accept us at our word that this is why or part of the why we believe as we do. You do not hav to agree. Telling us the why behind the why is wrong leads off topic. Not saying you must accept our why, but you must accept that we believe this is why and are not attempting to decieve you about our own reasons. You are free to ask about it, but the discussion often quickly expands this particular topic and people get lost/confused what it is we are discussing.
Just my thought.

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Well I'm glad to know we don't have to accept your view, because I don't. I accept what the Bible says, and anyone, or any "church" that doesn't is in grave error, and will have some answering to do in that regard, as will I for all of my errors, but our salvation, thank GOD ALMIGHTY, will remain if we are His Elected Children. That's what is so amazing about grace! We can all be wrong, and we probably are, and God loves us the SAME!!! I just can't wait to be straightened out by Him, and by Him alone!

Blessings,

FOMWatts<><

Gal 1:8-9
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
(KJV)

hoser said:

You are exactly 100% correct on this. I think that it's a shame that so many people cannot see this. All these people who argue that they are in Christ, so there is no way that the could ever leave Him. Well, I certainly hope that they are correct, but there is absolutely NO guarentee that one of them may not turn their back on Christ some day. This whole OSAS issue is mind boggling to me. This doctrine, which wasn't formed until the past couple hundred years at the most, is completely illogical and totally unbiblical.

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Well, if you are going to try to get people on your band wagon, you might possibly want to get your history correct. The Essenes, or the people of Qumar (where the Dead Sea Scrolls) were found in caves (over 2000 years ago) were believers in predestination and the belief that God perservered man, they were probably the first "Reformed" group...they were hated for it, but they never gave up there beliefs, and I can't wait to sit with them and talk about it in Heaven, hope you remain faithful and are able to get yourself there. Man what a heavy load!

Blessings,

FOMWatts<><

YeshuaLuvr said:

Jesus said we must be born again.
Once someone is born again, they cannot be unborn.
He alone is able to keep us....


John 10:28
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
(KJV)

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Those who believe we can lose our salvation, somehow feel God performs retroactive abortions on his children. Its sad to see those not understanding the completeness of the saving work of Christ.

I see their version of Christ, saying. "I will save you. But, only if you behave!"

"I died for your sins! .... They have been completely judged! But there are a special set of sins that I did not pay for. These will cause you to lose your salvation!"

How can our sins cause us to lose our salvation when all our sins were already judged on the Cross? Even the prodigal son did not stop being called a son when he was living in deep sin. And, he did not stop calling his father, his father, while in the depths of sin.

Grace and peace, GeneZ

genez said:

Those who believe we can lose our salvation, somehow feel God performs retroactive abortions on his children. Its sad to see those not understanding the completeness of the saving work of Christ.

I see their version of Christ, saying. "I will save you. But, only if you behave!"

"I died for your sins! .... They have been completely judged! But there are a special set of sins that I did not pay for. These will cause you to lose your salvation!"

How can our sins cause us to lose our salvation when all our sins were already judged on the Cross? Even the prodigal son did not stop being called a son when he was living in deep sin. And, he did not stop calling his father, his father, while in the depths of sin.

Grace and peace, GeneZ

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Right on bro!

How can anyone live in peace with such a notion that their salvation can be lost at any moment?

If you are constantly going to the altar in hopes of recovering your salvation, how can you ever get off the milk and eat the meat of the Word?
Any more maturity or growth in the Spirit is impossible because you are constantly trying to prove your own salvation....
when your salvation was purchased on the cross and not by effort!

YeshuaLuvr said:

Right on bro!

How can anyone live in peace with such a notion that their salvation can be lost at any moment?

If you are constantly going to the altar in hopes of recovering your salvation, how can you ever get off the milk and eat the meat of the Word?
Any more maturity or growth in the Spirit is impossible because you are constantly trying to prove your own salvation....
when your salvation was purchased on the cross and not by effort!

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Its a trap to try to get believers to try and save themselves by their efforts (works). It takes grace right out of the picture and puts the burden right back on the believer. "You must save you, now that Christ has saved you!"

What self contradictory thinking! You are saved by grace. But, works will keep what grace secured?

That would be like someone selling you car insurance. Your policy will be nullified in the event you are involved in an accident. Only if you drive without incident, you will to continue to have coverage. Why even need the coverage then? What good is it, if you lose it when you most need it?

Philippians 1:6
"being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus."

They always cry about having to work out our salvation in fear in trembling, to mean we can lose our salvation. But, they always leave off the next verse!

Philippians 2:12-13 niv
"Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed–not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence–continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose."

We fear because God does not fear what we fear. We fear to go where grace wants to take us. His ways are not our ways! (Isaiah 55:8) To become transformed into the character of Christ we must not fear what he does not fear. He is taking us into the frontier of becoming more like himself! Of course, we will fear! He wants us to learn not to fear! He must take us through our fears, to over come them! Fears that we did not even know we have, in some cases.

1 John 4:18 niv
"There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love."

First of all. Anyone who does not understand Eternal security does not know our Father's love as they yet should.

If I murdered someone and went to jail? It may deeply depress my parents. But, they would say when asked....

"Yes... (sigh) ..."my son is a mudrerer."

It may grieve them deeply. But, they would not say I was not their son.

Once we are born again, it was by God's choice to save us. Not ours. Our decision to believe is the result of the Father's choice to give us to Christ. To say we can lose our salvation, is to say the Father hasn't a clue as to how we would turn out. That he makes unwise choices. That he gives his own Son something that He will have to later take back, and break the Son's heart to do so. Would the Father do that to his own Son?

"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.” John 6:37-40 niv



Grace and peace, GeneZ

GeneZ

I just started posting yesterday, but, you are the only one I have read on this forum who sees the Truth...I hope there are more.
Praise Jesus.

There are so many here who are either on 1 of 2 extremes....
1) salvation is eternally secure because you are chosen by God's sovereignty to be in the elect...
2) salvation is insecure because I am fallible...I will never know if I am saved until I die.

How about the truth that whosoever believes on Him...whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. We are of the elect by His foreknowledge not his sovereignty.

1 Pet 1:2
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
(KJV)

And yes, when we believe in Yeshua and his work on the cross for us...we are eternally secure...because it's His work!
Why are these truths so very difficult to reconcile?
Especially when they are founded in scripture to be Truth.

well... anyway.

fomwatts

hope you remain faithful and are able to get yourself there. Man what a heavy load!

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what is so hard about not completely turning your back on Christ? since i dont know anyone who believes that a single sin can remove you from salvation anyway. what is so hard about believing that you must stay following Christ to stay in Christ? not hard at all.


genez

I see their version of Christ, saying. "I will save you. But, only if you behave!"

"I died for your sins! .... They have been completely judged! But there are a special set of sins that I did not pay for. These will cause you to lose your salvation!"


thats how you see me? better look again.



to whoever

its more like since the bible says in 2 peter 2.20-22 that if after those who have escaped pollutions of the world through the knowledge of Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. for it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them, but it has happened according to the true proverb, the dog is turned to its own vomit again and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

there are some little undebatable points from these verses and the surrounding context.

these people were at one time saved because...


1. they escaped the pollutions of the world.... verse20
2. they had the knowledge of Jesus Christ that let them escape... verse20
3. they are entangled in sin AGAIN... (that means a second time, there was a time when they werent in it) ...verse20
4. they were OVERCOME by sin AFTER they had escaped (people who were never saved anyway, dont get overcome by sin they never escaped from)... verse 20
5. they knew the way of righteousness...verse21
6. they turned from the holy commandment (that doesnt apply to people who were never saved) ... verse21
7. they are dogs going BACK to their vomit AGAIN...verse22
8. they are pigs who had been washed, but went back to the mud...verse22.

all of that goes to say that these people had had a change take place in their lives, these werent people who simply never knew Christ or walked in his way or ever were saved. that kind of talk doesnt apply to people whowere never in Christ anyway.
and we all know, people dont change ...and then get saved. you dont change without God, there is no getting it together and then really making sure its there or finishing it... it comes to those who ask and desire from the get go, and then we see change.


these people are no longer saved becuase...

they are beasts.....spots.. cursed children...blemishes...sinners...unstable souls...and shall utterly perish in their own corruption....chapter2.
i dont really have to go into all that, anyone who reads the whole chapter will not disagree that these are certainly not christians and are not going to heavon. i doubt any of you disagree with this much.

but i dont think anyone should be able to get past the evidence that these people were not always this way... these were people who forsook God and went astray after they had been rebuked, verses 15 and 16.

these where people who knew the way, and sometime later turned away from it... verse 21.

it is absolutely apparent that they werent always living this way, becuase the bible says they had escaped from these things, it says they became intangled in them a second time or again which clearly implies they had left them for righteousness, the bible says these sins overcame them after they knew right way...

how can we say these people werent saved. look back to the 8 reasons i gave.

i believe this clearly says you can go back.

i dont think anyone feels like they lose their salvation by simply commiting sins, but you can choose to go back. and whether you think thats feasable or not... i dont believe you can argue with the evidence presented that it has been done before

thats just one of the scriptures that make me honestly believe a person can return unto death, becuase it is clearly described as having happened. i dont believe salvation is fragile... but i dont believe it is simply permanent. peter spoke to christians and said we must labour to make our calling and election sure... and if this is true? how can we believe that salvation is a permanent fix.

i believe we can go back if we choose... and who knows what that takes, but it seems undeniable that it has happened before.

"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.” John 6:37-40 niv




Jesus is saying everyone God gives him comes to him.
Jesus is saying he doesnt drive people away.
Jesus is saying God does not will that he lose any one.
Jesus is saying God wills that they all are raised up on the last day.
Jesus is saying God wills that everyone who looks unto him receive life.
Jesus is saying God wills that Jesus raise up every man that believed.

but it doesnt happen...
the will of God is broken everyday.
even if its us not allowing Jesus to do what God desires him to be able to do in our lives.

that scripture is saying thats what God wants to happen... sure they all that God sends come, he only sends those that ask and believe. sure God doesnt drive people away and Jesus doesnt either. but the rest is what God desires to do for us. even if its something so big on the scale of our eternal existence... its still only the will of God, something that is never impressed upon us.

but i dont want to stir up for confusion by isolating this one topic and arguing over it alone for a long time pointlessly, i just dont believe the rest of scripture allows this scripture be saying that everyone Gods wants saved simply will be saved, its not biblical becuase of 1 timothy 2.1-6 and lots of other scriptures. since 1 timothy 2.1-6 says that God died for all and wills that all men be saved. and 2 peter 2 completely proves to me that it is possible to go back to death.

for instance
the bible asks what will happen to the man when he treads underfoot the blood of Jesus, "the blood wherewith HE WAS sanctified..." despite "the spirit of grace" working in his life. hebrews 10.29.
the bible says "fiery indignation" awaits people who go back to sin after being enlightened, but for this man its much "sorer punishment" hebrews 26-29

that clearly shows you be sanctified and have grace, and still trod underfoot Jesus blood.

and what about galations chapter 5?
the whole book of galations is talking to christians who had run a good race it says, but in chapter 5 paul tells them that if they go back to judaism and the law, that God will no longer profit them anything. and they will be "fallen from Grace" galations 5.2 and 4.
hes speaking to people who are saved, the church at galatia.
people who did run well.... galations 5.7

and what about Jude verse 12
the bible says there are people who still walk the earth today, attend the feasts at churches, etc... but they are TWICE DEAD... plucked up by the roots.

how is it possible for a person who is still walking the earth, never died... but hes twice dead. hes been spiritually dead two times...?
it means that he was once saved and then he went back to that death again.
they were plucked up, by satan.
they left grace, they left God.


and why does the new testament say he that destroys the temple of God or the holyspirit, that God will destroy him? 1 cor 3.17
sinners arent the temple of the holyspirit, they are not the temple of God... it can only mean it is possible for a christian to go back to destruction if he chooses too.



ok.... ive given it my best shot. let the chips fall where they may.

Endure2 said:

well... anyway.

fomwatts




what is so hard about not completely turning your back on Christ? since i dont know anyone who believes that a single sin can remove you from salvation anyway. what is so hard about believing that you must stay following Christ to stay in Christ? not hard at all.

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You confuse believing in Christ unto salvation. With making a choice to follow Christ after one is saved.

Acts 16:31
They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved–you and your household.”

It does not tell us, "Believe and then follow after Christ, and you will be saved. If it did? Then, you would be correct in your assumption. You have been adding to what is written.

genez

I see their version of Christ, saying. "I will save you. But, only if you behave!"

"I died for your sins! .... They have been completely judged! But there are a special set of sins that I did not pay for. These will cause you to lose your salvation!"



thats how you see me? better look again.

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There are folks who think that way. I do not know who you are. How you think is your business. I was only directing that towards those who do.

these people were at one time saved because...


1. they escaped the pollutions of the world.... verse20

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It does not say that they were saved because they escaped the pollutions of the world. They were able to escape because they were saved. They were accepting the grace which is available to believers after salvation. Grace to avoid sin. They were not saved because they escaped. (you have it reversed).

They escaped because they were saved! They had access to the grace to escape. But, these ones chose no longer to follow after the one who saved them. So, what happened to them?

its more like since the bible says in 2 peter 2.20-22 that if after those who have escaped pollutions of the world through the knowledge of Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. for it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them, but it has happened according to the true proverb, the dog is turned to its own vomit again and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

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It says that thet became worse off than they were before they were saved. Can one become more unsaved?

You are either saved, or you are not.

So, what became worse? It ws their state of being in their lives.

2 Corinthians 5:17
"Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come."



That states that we are a new creation when we believe! We can no longer live like we used to live.

So, for anyone attempting to go back to a life of sin they once knew? These being no longer who they used to be, will no longer be able to experience the glory of sin like they used to know. They will need to try harder in attempt to recapture the old glory that was once their's. They will not find it! They do not know what is happening to them.

What happens is that they now need to keep seeking out deeper experiences than before. They will go deeper and deeper in a frantic search to recapture their past glory. They can not find it anymore. As a result, they became a worse wretch than they ever were before!


"For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by a full knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. " 2 Peter 2:20


This is like the old movie starlette who tries to attract young men like she used to do when she was young and attractive. She no longer can. The old ways have lost their power. Now she must stoop lower than ever before in attempts to recapture what she used to have. Though what she used to do was shameful, but now she is even worse off than before in order to try and get what she had before. Now she must even stoop to even buying men's favors! In her new found misery this now causes, and denial of the truth, she now needs to get drunk or high on drugs all the time to kill her pain. What does she now have?


" the last state has become worse for them than the first. " 2 Peter 2:20b


The passage you used does not mention anything about salvation being lost. It only states that their state after denying to follow after Christ, is worse than their state was before they got saved. Can someone be more lost than when they were first lost? More unsaved?

Many people hurt from a life of sin. They turn to Christ because they see him dying for their sins. They are now saved. But when they find out that following Christ can at times seem boring, or painful, because it does not stimulate their flesh? Some go back to desiring to follow after their old lifestyle. But, they can no longer enjoy what they once did before! For they are now a new Creation in Christ, and the old ways have lost its power in their lives!

So now they must try harder than before! What happens as a result? They become a worse wretch in their living experience than they had before they got saved. That passage says nothing about being sent to Hell. But, about their life becomes a living hell on earth. That's what its telling us!


" the last state has become worse for them than the first. " 2 Peter 2:20b


Grace and peace! GeneZ

first off, please stop trying to educate me on matters that do not directly apply, this is not a "take endure through the work shops and teach him" session. i will not appreciate it.
lets debate this rationally within the boundaries of good exegis and hermenutics and stick to strick evidence for what your trying to prove and strick rebuttals for what you dont agree with. ok? atleast when you speak to me. when im itchin to learn something else i have books i read.

You confuse believing in Christ unto salvation. With making a choice to follow Christ after one is saved.

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when fomwatts said what he did, he was speaking about things from our perspective and way of life, which is keep following Christ, which isnt hard, so he was wrong, so your statement was misdirected.


it certainly does say to simply believe, but if you really believe and do all that means, that means follow him too.
even the demons believe.
believing in him as christ means, is more than just believing he exists or believing he did what he said he did, it means believing he exists, believing hes the way, believing you need him, believing you want him, believing he speaks the truth, believing you need to do all he says to, beleiving you are going to follow him. and if you do, you will follow him. becuase you must follow him.
Jesus told us to evaluate ourselves lest we be foolish and choose him before we really know what that means or else he said we were like a builder who doesnt count the cost of what hes building or a king who goes to war before he looks at what it will take...Jesus said that. he said that is what our salvation is like.
Jesus specificly said that those who were not willing to lay down all and take up your cross and FOLLOW HIM, or you CAN NOT BE HIS DISCIPLE. its in the book.
simply believing is not enough.
luke 14.26-33

There are folks who think that way. I do not know who you are. How you think is your business. I was only directing that towards those who do.

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no, what you said was this..

Those who believe we can lose our salvation, somehow feel ......
I see their version of Christ, saying. "I will save you. But, only if you behave!"

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you included me in that. ... sorry but you did.

It does not say that they were saved because they escaped the pollutions of the world. They were able to escape because they were saved. They were accepting the grace which is available to believers after salvation. Grace to avoid sin. They were not saved because they escaped. (you have it reversed).

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whatever man, you didnt really get what i was saying but anyway the point is these people were saved.

The passage you used does not mention anything about salvation being lost

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so you dont think these people lost their salvation?


wow...im amased that you believed these people were saved, thats the last thing i expected you to believe, this will be easy then, since the hardest thing to do is prove they were saved, a 3 year old who read the whole chapter could prove these people are probly in hell right now.

the whole chapter speaks specificly about THESE PEOPLE and only these people and their enteractions and what they are like... read it if you dont believe me. the entire chapter is speaking about one thing, these people, its almost like its one long breath ending with the part i quoted yesterday.

ok...let me spell it out for you.
here is what it says about them.

1. ...their "judgement now a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not" ....verse 3.

2. "but these, as natural beasts, made to be taken and destroyed...shall utterly perish in their own corruption" ....verse 13.

3. they are "...unstable souls...cursed children" ...verse 14

4. they are "...servants of corruption, for of whom a man is overcome, the same is he brought into bondadge"


man, you cant disagree with me.
these people are going to be judged, these people have damnation waiting on them, these people are called beasts to be destroyed, these people will utterly perish in ther corruption, these people are cursed, these people are in bondadge to satan, the father of corruption whom they serve.

if we do not hope and assume these people changed anything after this was written.... we can most assuredly assume they are in hell right now.

it would much easier to believe eternal security from the standpoint that these people were never ever saved, thats the route most baptists take with this chapter that i have met, but suit yourself.

"but dont take my word for it! read it in a book" your friend Levar Burton.

DrBubbaLove said:

Ok, perhaps I misunderstood when you wrote;Which is close to how we feel about sin, the attitude we have towards God and our hope for salvation. [/font]

So what you really meant to say is your fear is how you know you are a sinner and you only need to confess your fear and not your sin. Is that correct?

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It would not be hard to misunderstand what I said because I realise I am not expressing myself well. So I am going to quote from Genez. This is from post #250.

(hope you don't mind Genez)

We fear because God does not fear what we fear. We fear to go where grace wants to take us. His ways are not our ways! (Isaiah 55:8) To become transformed into the character of Christ we must not fear what he does not fear. He is taking us into the frontier of becoming more like himself! Of course, we will fear! He wants us to learn not to fear! He must take us through our fears, to over come them! Fears that we did not even know we have, in some cases.

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That explains far better what it is I am trying to say. I meet circumstances in my life (some worse than others) that make me afraid. I am not talking about fear just in the sense of emotion or in the sense of terror. Fear comes in all shapes and sizes from being slightly "disturbed" by something to out and out terror of something (ie phobia). The emotion is easy to recognise in a life threatening situation but not so easy in normal day to day living. But the emotion of fear is not the real problem, that's just a hint that things are wrong. It's what it makes us think which, if left unchecked, turns into an attitude. That attitude then establishes itself in our soul which, produces the emotion and the cycle continues unless it is cut through with and replaced by the Word of God.
We can't have the right attitude toward God until first He breaks through and gives us the Truth and we believe upon it. This is why we must continue to grow in the "grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ". As the Word begins to take root in us it replaces the wrong attitudes we have developed with God's attitude and hence we grow in grace.

I'm not sure what you mean by....

you only need to confess your fear and not your sin.

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As I tried to explain, it is the recognition within myself that I am afraid that tells me I am sinning. "Perfect love casts out fear." If my faith were perfect (complete) I would have no fear. However, I do have a measure of faith, more so "today than yesterday", therefore I fear less "today than yesterday". But if I want to keep growing then I must learn what God says is true and when I find myself afraid and contrary to what God thinks, (for fear is contrary to faith) then I must confess my sin and believe the Word. Of course I can't believe what I don't know, so it isn't enough just to know I am afraid and tell God. I must also learn what the Word says otherwise my confession just gets short-circuited. (so to speak)
This is why I think a lot of Christians continue to struggle all their Christian life because they easily recognise they are sinners and confess but have no knowledge of the Word to replace the "crud" that's within them. They don't know what to believe so they take whatever "sounds good" and run with it. Alternatively, I think Christians suddenly realise something of God's truth and make that the totality of their spritual walk and end up getting ski-wiff. When someone comes along with deeper truth, they reject it, because truth is learnt precept upon precept. This is why God gives grace to the humble so we can go on in our learning and not stop as soon as we think we "got our act together". Have you ever read something in scripture and it is like you have read it for the first time? That's because you weren't ready to hear it before. You needed other, more foundational truth, before you could understand what God is saying about the deeper truths.

Hopefully that better explains what I was trying to say.

peace

Endure2 said:

it certainly does say to simply believe, but if you really believe and do all that means, that means follow him too.
even the demons believe.

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You are not looking at that passage in its detail.

Demons believe that there is a God. Ok. Is salvation from believing there is a God?

Many believe that there is a God, but they refuse to believe in Jesus Christ.

No....... Salvation specifically comes from believing in Christ.

Acts 4:12
"Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.”

Men believe in there being a God. So? Demons believe that there is a God! It does not say that demons believe in Jesus Christ. Satan and his angels rejected the Lord. Yet, they believe that there is a God.

James 2:19
"You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that-and shudder.

Many Jews who rejected Jesus Christ, believed that there is one God.

It did not save them. Did it?

Once you see what that passage refers to, maybe it will help clarify where you are confusing the issue over that passage.

believing in him as christ means, is more than just believing he exists or believing he did what he said he did, it means believing he exists, believing hes the way, believing you need him, believing you want him, believing he speaks the truth, believing you need to do all he says to, beleiving you are going to follow him. and if you do, you will follow him. becuase you must follow him.

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What many of the Gentiles heard was that Jesus died for their sins and was raised from the dead. That's all. Nothing was said about following Him after they were saved.

Guess what? They believed it, and were saved.

Acts 10:39-45 niv
“We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a tree, but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen. He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen–by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”
While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles."

Peter gave no speech about having to follow after Jesus in order to be saved. They were saved just like I was. I believed that Jesus died for my sins.

Jesus told us to evaluate ourselves lest we be foolish and choose him before we really know what that means or else he said we were like a builder who doesnt count the cost of what hes building or a king who goes to war before he looks at what it will take...Jesus said that. he said that is what our salvation is like.

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I am not sure if you got the context right on that passage. Since you do not give the actual passages that you are gleaning from, I am not sure that what you say is even about that.

Jesus specificly said that those who were not willing to lay down all and take up your cross and FOLLOW HIM, or you CAN NOT BE HIS DISCIPLE. its in the book.

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That is what one must do in order to follow after Christ. To grow in knowing Christ better. Jesus did not say that one must deny self and take up his cross if he is to ever get saved. Please! You keep adding things to passages that they just do not say. The thief on the cross had no time to be a disciple of Christ. Yet, he believed, and was saved!

Luke 23:42-44
"Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” Jesus answered him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.”

simply believing is not enough.

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Tell Jesus that! For he made a mistake and saved that thief with only belief.

luke 14.26-33

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"If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."

One can not be a disciple..... that means, a "student" of Jesus. It does not say (in all those passages) that one can not be saved unless they do those things. Show us where it even mentions salvation, even once, in Luke 14:26-33? You will see the word disciple mentioned. But, not once will one see anything mentioned about not having salvation. Not all saved people choose to be disciples of Christ. The thief on the cross had no time to become a disciple! And? He was saved because he believed in Jesus!

Not everyone who is saved chooses to become a disciple of Christ. I was saved almost ten years before I finally got into the Word. I was saved all that time. I was not happy. But I was saved.

Notice how many passages you use to make your point? Yet, none of them speak of what you say they do. They speak of other things that concern those who are saved. But, not about how to get saved.

Acts 16:31a niv
"They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved."

1 Corinthians 1:21 niv
"For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe."

To simply believe and be saved? Imagine that! God requires nothing more than accepting his Son's work on the Cross? You would think he would want us to sweat a bit before we could get saved? Right? After all, we must earn our salvation. Right?

Grace and working hard to keep what I could not earn....

GeneZ

sawdust

it is the recognition within myself that I am afraid that tells me I am sinning. "Perfect love casts out fear." If my faith were perfect (complete) I would have no fear.

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i do not believe that it is the fallen part of us (fear) that lets us know weve fallen(sinned). it is the holy part of us that lets us know weve fallen, the holyspirit.
no, fear is not what lets us know we have sin, conviction is not fear and darkness does not expose darkness.
having a problem with having sin in our lives is not just a weakness that christians who dont understand eternal security have.

it is the the holyspirit that brings sin to our attention in our lives. the bible says he will bring conviction. such a fallen or earthly or human thing like fear (that God did not give us) is not the one to credit. darkness does not oppose darkness. it is the light in you that brings sin to your attention.

but i feel you are only trying to get around to saying we should rest assured that our salvations are set anyway and not be afraid becuase of sin, becuase we once saved always saved anyway... and this i will never believe.

sawdust said:

(hope you don't mind Genez)

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Only if you tell us what "ski-wiff," means!

..... Your post ministered to me. Thanks!

Grace and peace, GeneZ