Synagogue of Satan

sojeru · Dec 13, 2003

hi Adam, of what i said in the last posts was in no way directed to you. And as I said- I am writing and article- I have grwon tired of repeating myself, that is why I am writting articles. Do you understand?

What i am doing with you on the other hand is leaving you hints. Personally, i want for you to find out for yourself which will make it much more meaningful.
So rather, I believe that your last staments (you last post) is morely directed toward you rather than to me.
You dont know what i know do you- And i know that even if I do present scripture on top of scripture that it can measure up to millions of books does not help. However, if i point you in a direction rather than FIGHT you then you might just find out what is needed, only if you keep looking of course.

so , please stop your ignorance, I dont mind your arrgance- just put aside the ignorance. If you do not know something- you do not know. I teach Judaism in the belief that Messiah is Jesus. The way I speak, i know, it is unbearable, lol.
I know that the way i write cuts. So why in the world would I write to in purpose destroy your belief?
no, i would rather let you FORM yourself into what G-D's truth is.
If I say that a person is wrong but wait till I get my writting done and consider what i wrote, I sayit in full confidence that they will respond with "ok, I will wait till you are ready to present your belief on a matter."

lol, you on the other hand , just want to fight on the spot. I say, let us fight properly.

shalom

Atkin · Dec 13, 2003

sojeru said:
And sure- Most of us ORTHODOX JEWS may not agree on what the name of the Messiah is- however, we do know the character, person and nature of the Messiah- and I agree- in the end we will all bow down to Messiah Yeshuah- However, it does not mean that we are his enemies.
And even what i wrote here you will not completely understand and even twist what it means because you are ignorant to what Messiah really teaches. T

How would you answer Yashua is he repeated before you that HE IS GOD.

Would you feel the same way as those Jews felt?

What is the point of waiting for centuries to bow before the Messiah.

Therein lies the danger of the non believing Jews assumeing that God overlooks their blasphemy.

It is one thing to say the Jews of the 1st advent were lost, for they were in a state of confusion.

over 1800 years later, THERE IS NO excuse for any human being, especially Jews who claim

to be of Israel, to be hoping to bow to the messiah in the future.

Bow to him now.. is the message to all jews.

sojeru · Dec 15, 2003

Atkin,
I'll put it like this- WHAT GOOD ARE YOU TO A JEW?
you say you have Jesus but your Jesus does not do the Jews any good, AT ALL!
You say(assuming) that the Jews had expected a Messiah that was full of honor, riding on a horse with shimmering crowns and armies and that this is why the Jews didn't believe.
WRONG! I suggest you look up the description of Messiah in Jewish writting- The Orthodox Jews know that the 1st comming is a suffering Messiah, one who is not splendid at all.
so then, WHY do they not recieve your Jesus?
Because he abolishes the Torah.
Eusebius spoke about a group of Jews that "practice just as the Jews do only that they believe in the Christ".
We have existed since the beginning- you may call us Judaizers- However, that became a gentile term to use for all those that are any where near connected to the faith of Judaism. Do you not all remember James the brother of Jesus?

This is one thing that the Jews have concealed to you all- and had the right to- However, i will open it up to you today.
James the brother of Jesus is recorded in the talmud. in slander!? NEVER and G-D FORBID! He is spoekn Highly of as he is spoken highly of in History.
As you all would know if you have at least an ok knowledge of the "New Testament" that James, brother of Jesus was the leader of the believers while located in Jerusalem. Notice this, in the Talmud James the brother of Jesus is recorded as history calls him, James the Just/Righteous and he is the Leader of all the pharisees.
He is called the prince over them.
And he wasnt killed by pharisees- he was killed by those that believed like the sadducees as recorded by Hessipigus (?).
So the synagogue is of satan? well that means you would include the synagogues of the past (all of them) and also include the people that learned and tought in them- thus including James and thus including Jesus and thus including all of Judaic followers.
However, i know that this is done without you to even know the gravity of what you or Adam are doing.

I just pray that you all will see- that is all that is needed- it isnt much at all- and i know that you will burn as you read this post.

oh and Atkin about the 1st question in your last post- where EXACTLY AND CLEARLY does Jesus say that he is G-D, only using the first four books- WHERE does he use the words "I am the L-rd" or " I am the G-D of Israel".
You have no idea what I believe either- so why push this question on me any way?

However, I will give you something to think about

Hsa 11:9 I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I wil not return to destroy Ephraim: for I [am] God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city.

It would seem that it is a contradiction- I quoted the one from hoseah and not Numbers because I don't know how you all here take into yourselves and apply and practice the words of Torah (first 5 books).
However, reconcile in equal authority how Jesus who was a man is/was G-D and how G-D said that he is not a man.
put these two on an equal weight measure- EQUAL and reconcile them- you will see that the way you THINK about Jesus will have to be reconstructed.
And because you don't actually care for any of my answers I wont give you any- just many hard questions over the time.
shalom

Dad Ernie · Dec 15, 2003

Greetings Adam and others,

Please give me your understanding of why the Christians become Jews (or Israel if you prefer) FROM the NT. I will respond accordingly.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

sojeru · Dec 15, 2003

CHRISTIANS BY NO MEANS NEED TO BECOME JEWS!!!!
This is great error. And if a christian does become a Jew it is because his religion and faith is lacking proper answers to many questions dealing with what is called "the Law".

And I am Jewish by blood, was a christian, and found the faith that Messiah taught to be Judaism. Again, a Jew is a Jew. However a christian who is a gentile NEED NOT CONVERT!
This, again, i say, is great error! and a Horror will fall onto the person that does so convert to think they are getting closer to G-D or elevating in stature in G-D's sight- this is wrong thinking!
sorry if I have not quoted biblical passages- however, this is exactly what the writters of the "new testament" Taught.
shalom

Atkin · Dec 15, 2003

sojeru said:
Atkin,
I'll put it like this- WHAT GOOD ARE YOU TO A JEW?
you say you have Jesus but your Jesus does not do the Jews any good, AT ALL!
You say(assuming) that the Jews had expected a Messiah that was full of honor, riding on a horse with shimmering crowns and armies and that this is why the Jews didn't believe.
WRONG! I suggest you look up the description of Messiah in Jewish writting- The Orthodox Jews know that the 1st comming is a suffering Messiah, one who is not splendid at all.
so then, WHY do they not recieve your Jesus?
Because he abolishes the Torah.
Eusebius spoke about a group of Jews that "practice just as the Jews do only that they believe in the Christ".
We have existed since the beginning- you may call us Judaizers- However, that became a gentile term to use for all those that are any where near connected to the faith of Judaism. Do you not all remember James the brother of Jesus?

This is one thing that the Jews have concealed to you all- and had the right to- However, i will open it up to you today.
James the brother of Jesus is recorded in the talmud. in slander!? NEVER and G-D FORBID! He is spoekn Highly of as he is spoken highly of in History.
As you all would know if you have at least an ok knowledge of the "New Testament" that James, brother of Jesus was the leader of the believers while located in Jerusalem. Notice this, in the Talmud James the brother of Jesus is recorded as history calls him, James the Just/Righteous and he is the Leader of all the pharisees.
He is called the prince over them.
And he wasnt killed by pharisees- he was killed by those that believed like the sadducees as recorded by Hessipigus (?).
So the synagogue is of satan? well that means you would include the synagogues of the past (all of them) and also include the people that learned and tought in them- thus including James and thus including Jesus and thus including all of Judaic followers.
However, i know that this is done without you to even know the gravity of what you or Adam are doing.

I just pray that you all will see- that is all that is needed- it isnt much at all- and i know that you will burn as you read this post.

oh and Atkin about the 1st question in your last post- where EXACTLY AND CLEARLY does Jesus say that he is G-D, only using the first four books- WHERE does he use the words "I am the L-rd" or " I am the G-D of Israel".
You have no idea what I believe either- so why push this question on me any way?

However, I will give you something to think about

Hsa 11:9 I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I wil not return to destroy Ephraim: for I [am] God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city.

It would seem that it is a contradiction- I quoted the one from hoseah and not Numbers because I don't know how you all here take into yourselves and apply and practice the words of Torah (first 5 books).
However, reconcile in equal authority how Jesus who was a man is/was G-D and how G-D said that he is not a man.
put these two on an equal weight measure- EQUAL and reconcile them- you will see that the way you THINK about Jesus will have to be reconstructed.
And because you don't actually care for any of my answers I wont give you any- just many hard questions over the time.
shalom

Sojeru,

I will debate your points with you and will address all the issues you raised.

I am just a human being so I do not expect to mean much to the Jews.

1. What were you implying by your question below?

sojeru said:
I'll put it like this- WHAT GOOD ARE YOU TO A JEW?
you say you have Jesus but your Jesus does not do the Jews any good, AT ALL!

Of course a human being like myself is just a human to the JEWS. Nothing more.

2. G-d inspired?? THE BOOKS OF MATTHEW, MARK, LUKE, JOHN ACTS, ROMANS, HEBREWS

Sojeru,

a. Please give me a very very honest answer. WHAT errors do you think are in the last Books of the Bible
b. If there are many false statements in your opinion, why were these statements placed in a God inspired
Book??

c. WHY DID GOD go to all the effort in bringing Jesus to the Jews and Why did God inspire Jesus

d. VERY IMPORTANT question.

Which statements attributed to Jesus do you most disagree with.

For example WHAT DID JESUS MEAN by this ? John 8:58 Before Abraham WAS, I AM

Answer this question directly please. What exactly did Jesus MEAN? Do you fully agree with what he meant.

Please explain what Jesus meant Here??

-- What did Jesus mean here ? IF YOU HAVE SEEN ME, YOU HAVE SEEN THE FATHER

Jesus was, however, the visible image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15; Hebrews 1:3). That is why
Jesus could say to Philip, "He who has seen me has seen the Father" (John 14:9; 12:45)

Not the Flesh of the Father since Flesh is irrelevant. Look beyond flesh and "see" without eyes but with ears and spirit.

Was Jesus's words as written NOT IN LINE WITH WHAT you believe?? Explain your answer.

No human being could ever say this--- WHAT DID JESUS MEAN? If you have seen someone and seen the Father, THEY ARE ONE AND THE SAME.

Please explain what G-D meant here when he called Jesus G-D (like himself) EVERLASTING FATHER

Isaiah 9:6 G-D speaking about Jesus-- His name will be Mighty God, EVERLASTING FATHER

Now this is G-D's own words, not man. DO YOU AGREE WITH G-D'S naming of Jesus or do you have some explanation or is the name wrong in your opinion?? Explain why with reference to the original texts if necessary.

WAS JESUS lying?? Was His words twisted? Explain why you disgree with these words.

Please be very direct and defend your beliefs.. what you believe is what you believe

3. SYNAGOGUE OF SATAN
You are wrong -- Jesus did not describe ALL JEWS AS OF THE SYNAGOGUE OF SATAN.
The words synagogue of SATAN REFERS to Jews who reject Jesus (among others)

It was used by Jesus HIMSELF (IS REVELATION A FALSE BOOK?) so It obviously does not refer to Himself,

common sense. JESUS'S WORDS-- SYNAGOGUE OF SATAN REVELATION 2:9 REVELATION 3:9

Do you believe Jesus gave the Book of Revelation? Explain your answer

The point I see is that you do not believe much of the last Books in the Bible is TRULY INSPIRED OF GOD.

Well, you will have to explain why you think some of the statements are NOT INSPIRED OF GOD and why

such statements were all placed together in those Books.

This is very easy.

sojeru said:
I wil not return to destroy Ephraim: for I [am] God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city.

God is not Man .. God is not fallible and petty and limited as Man.

God can take the form of Man and retain his infallibility. It does not mean God is too limited that he cannot

take the form of a human. That HUMAN would not be subject to ALL THE ERRORS that other humans make.

Temptation, selfishness, greed, envy, false doctrines etc....

God is Not man and God is not limited to not appearing in Flesh. This requires wisdom.

sojeru said:
James the brother of Jesus is recorded in the talmud. in slander!? NEVER and G-D FORBID! He is spoekn Highly of as he is spoken highly of in History.

JAMES NEVER INSULTED JESUS... yes? James never disbelieved Jesus.. right?

So why does the Talmud speak highly of James AND NOT HIGHLY OF JESUS IF JAMES REGARDED

JESUS HIGHLY?? Do you see how the Talmud appears inconsistent here??

James 1:1 JAMES writes , A SERVANT OF GOD AND OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST

James constantly refers to Jesus as Lord Jesus Christ -- James 2:1 and many others

Now why does James REGARD JESUS AS LORD but the Talmud regards ONLY JAMES, BUT NOT JESUS AS LORD?? You have a serious inconsistency here in the Talmud and you need to explain why..

Please do not tell me that James IS A FALSE BOOK

Why does that Talmud regard James but disagree with James regarding Jesus as Lord.

It seems that Talmud and Judaism IS AFRAID OF A HUMAN WHO IS VERY CLOSE TO GOD and is one with God.

Questions
What is so wrong IF GOD DECIDED TO MANIFEST HIMSELF AS A MAN.?? Explain your views

Why would God HAVE A SERIOUS DIFFICULTY AND FIND IT VERY DIFFICULT TO MANIFEST himself as flesh??

Why would that be dangerous and disturbing for orthodox Jews?

Atkin · Dec 15, 2003

sojeru said:
WRONG! I suggest you look up the description of Messiah in Jewish writting- The Orthodox Jews know that the 1st comming is a suffering Messiah, one who is not splendid at all.
so then, WHY do they not recieve your Jesus?
Because he abolishes the Torah.

shalom

You have stated that Jesus abolishes the Torah.

State the Biblical verse that proves this and let us see when Jesus abolished the Torah.

I want the words of Jesus himself saying He abolishes the Torah else you are imagining things.

Why would Jesus quote from the Torah and yet abolish the Torah.?

Dad Ernie · Dec 15, 2003

sojeru said:
CHRISTIANS BY NO MEANS NEED TO BECOME JEWS!!!!
This is great error. And if a christian does become a Jew it is because his religion and faith is lacking proper answers to many questions dealing with what is called "the Law".

And I am Jewish by blood, was a christian, and found the faith that Messiah taught to be Judaism. Again, a Jew is a Jew. However a christian who is a gentile NEED NOT CONVERT!
This, again, i say, is great error! and a Horror will fall onto the person that does so convert to think they are getting closer to G-D or elevating in stature in G-D's sight- this is wrong thinking!
sorry if I have not quoted biblical passages- however, this is exactly what the writters of the "new testament" Taught.
shalom

I agree with you, this is a HORROR that is fostered upon many Christians. Israel is loved on account of the covenant with the Fathers, and they will be saved because of the covenant with the Fathers. Christians do an injustice with the scriptures to think they are or shall become or become Jews. I respect the Jews on account of Christ too much to think otherwise.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

Dad Ernie · Dec 15, 2003

Greetings Sojeru,

Because he abolishes the Torah.

Here is what is written:

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Matthew 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
Matthew 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Matthew 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Matthew 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Matthew 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Romans 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Of course there are many more verses. But as you can see Jesus came to put the "law" (the Torah) in its proper perspective. The Orthodox Jew believes that by obedience to the law that they will be justified before God/the Messiah. This is not the case at all. It is by "grace through faith" by which we receive our salvation, and that is in Jesus Christ.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

Atkin · Dec 15, 2003

Dad Ernie said:
I agree with you, this is a HORROR that is fostered upon many Christians. Israel is loved on account of the covenant with the Fathers, and they will be saved because of the covenant with the Fathers.
Blessings,

Dad Ernie

No Jew will be saved without submitting to Jesus Christ.

Any Jew rejector of Christ, much like the Pharisees and Sadducees who rejected Christ, will face death.

On Condition that you obey me is God's demand.

Obey me or die.

God loves Israel.

Atkin · Dec 15, 2003

Dad Ernie said:
Greetings Adam and others,

Please give me your understanding of why the Christians become Jews (or Israel if you prefer) FROM the NT. I will respond accordingly.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

Desiring to be of Jewish blood is extremely irrelevant before God.

The major error is that people are fixed on blood lineage which is very secondary.

God does not seek to make Christians ISRAELITES/JEWISH by blood. That is totally unecessary

and I assure you that there is NOTHING to be gained by striving to change one's blood to Jewish

blood.

ROMANS 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all
Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In
Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of
God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

THE MAJOR impact God is making, is that God accepts all people into God's Israel, whether you have Muslim

blood is irrelevant. Now people (ESPECIALLY JEWS) typically wish to have BLOOD differences such that
financial and other economic benefits can play in.

For example, there is this HUGE JEWISH image of a Messiah making other peoples subject to Jewish rule

in the future Messianic era and hence the concept of God accepting Non Jews into Israel IS VERY ANNOYING TO JEWS BECAUSE JEWS WANT THE FINANCIAL and earthly BENEFITS of ruling over Non Jews and that is CANCELLED IF GOD ACCEPTS muslim , CHINESE , other people into God's Israel.

The BIG PICTURE is that nobody can Control how God defines Israel and that is going to be the huge
thunderbolt of revelation that would strike the theories of millions on Earth.

side note
The CORRECT term would be Israel. The term Jew is DERIVED from a relation to one of the 12 Tribes of Israel

Jacob was named ISRAEL... Jacob was not named Jew.

So no body can ever Be called a Jew that is NOT an Israelite.

The Israelite lineage is what must be referred to.

Sometimes residents of Judea were called Jews WITHOUT actually descending from Jacob.

adam332 · Dec 15, 2003

Dad Ernie,
you wanted to see how the NT says we are Jews, Isrealites, etc....

Christ is Israel and we are one in Christ.

God called Israel "the seed of Abraham." (Isa. 41:8) .
But, Paul wrote that Abraham's seed does not refer to "many," but to "one, ... which is Christ." (Gal. 3:16)

In about 800 B.C., the Lord spoke through the prophet Hosea, saying, "When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt." (Hos. 11:1)

Around 800 years following Hosea's prophecy, "Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king." (Mat. 2:1).
Since Herod felt threatened by this new child king, he sent soldiers that "slew all the children that were in Bethlehem." (v.16).
Joseph was warned of the coming crisis in beforehand.
"The angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word." (v.13).
So his family left and "departed into Egypt." (v.14).

Matthew states that baby Jesus stayed in Egypt "until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son." (v.15).
Here Matthew is quoting Hos. 11:1, which initially referred to the nation of Israel coming out of Egypt, yet now he states it is "fulfilled" in Jesus Christ.

Once following the healing a group of people, Jesus humbly "charged them that they should not make him known: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias [Greek for Isaiah] the prophet, saying, Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets." (Mat.12:16-19).
This time Matthew is quoting Isa. 42:1-3, a passage that originally applied to "Israel, ... my servant." (Isa. 41:8) .
And Matthew again informs us it is "fulfilled" in Jesus Christ.

Paul also followed the concept of applying statements initially made about the nation of Israel to Christ.
God names Israel "my firstborn" in Exo. 4:22.
But Paul indicates it was Christ who is "the firstborn of every creature." Col. 1:15.

The book of Matthew reveals that Christ actually replays the history of ancient Israel, and overcame where they had not.
Notice the following amazing parallels between the history of ancient Israel and of Jesus Christ:

In the Old Testament, a man named Joseph had dreams and went into Egypt to keep his family alive (Gen. 45:5).
In the New Testament we see another Joseph, who also had dreams and then went to Egypt to keep his family (Mat. 2:13).
When the young nation of Israel came out of Egypt, God called that nation "my son" in Exo. 4:22.
When the baby Jesus came out of Egypt, God said, "Out of Egypt have I called my son." (Mat. 2:15).
When Israel left Egypt, the people went through the Red Sea. Paul states they were "baptized unto Moses ... in the sea." (1 Cor. 10:2).
Jesus too was baptized "to fulfill all righteousness," and immediately following God called Him, "my beloved Son" (Mat. 3:15-17).
After the Israelites passed through the Red Sea, they spent 40 years in the wilderness.
Following His baptism, Jesus was "led up of the Spirit into the wilderness" for 40 days (Mat.4:1, 2).
After the end of their 40-year wilderness wandering, Moses wrote the book of Deuteronomy.
After the end of Jesus' 40 days in the wilderness, He resisted the devils temptations by quoting three Scriptures; all found in Deuteronomy.
In Psa. 80:8, God refers to Israel as a "vine" that He brought "out of Egypt."
Still, Christ later tells us, "I am the true vine." John 15:1.
In the Old Testament, the name "Israel" first applied to only one man, which was Jacob.
It stood for Jacob's spiritual victory over sin.
Likewise, in the beginning of the New Testament we discover that Jesus Christ is the new Israel who came "out of Egypt." He is the one victorious Man who overcame all sin.

A New Nation

Remember that the name "Israel" not only referred to Jacob, but also to his descendants, who became Israel. The same principle is seen in the New Testament.

For example, the Lord had told the ancient Israelites, "And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation." Exo. 19:6. In the New Testament, Peter applies these exact words to the church: "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people." 1 Pet. 2:9.

Likewise, right after Paul's statement in Galatians chp. 3 about Jesus being "the seed," he then told his Gentile converts [a Gentile is any person who is not of the Jewish faith], "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Gal. 3:29).
Thus in the New Testament, the name Israel not only applies to Jesus Christ, but also to those who are born in Christ-His church.
In other words, all true Christians are now God's spiritual Israel.

According to the New Testament, there are now two Israels. One group is composed of literal Israelites "according to the flesh" (Rom. 9:3, 4).
The other is "spiritual Israel," composed of Jews and Gentiles who believe in Jesus Christ.

Paul wrote, "They are not all Israel, which are of Israel." (Rom. 9:6).
That is, not all are part of God's spiritual Israel who are of the literal nation of Israel.
Paul continued, "That is, They which are the children of the flesh [physical descendants of Abraham], these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." (Rom. 9:8) .
The children of the flesh are only natural descendants of Abraham, but the children of the promise are counted as the true seed.
Today any person-Jew or Gentile-can become a part of this spiritual nation of Israel through faith in Jesus Christ.

God Looks on the Heart
Just as there are two Israels, there are also two kinds of Jews: (1) Jews who are only natural descendants of Abraham, and (2) Jews in the Spirit who believe in Jesus Christ.
Paul wrote, "Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest on the law, and makest thy boast of God. ... For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. Therefore if the uncircumcision [Gentiles] keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? ... For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." (Rom. 2:17, 25, 26, 28, 29).

Did you catch that? Someone who is "called a Jew" because he is a physical descendant of Abraham, and yet who lives as a lawbreaker, "is not a Jew."
His "circumcision is made uncircumcision." Thus to God, he is a Gentile.
And a believing Gentile, who through faith keeps "the righteousness of the law," his uncircumcision is counted for circumcision.
Thus to God, he is a Jew.
John the Baptist paved the way for this principle when he warned the Jews not to trust their literal ancestry for salvation. "Bring forth therefore fruits meet [worthy] for repentance: And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham." (Mat.3:8,9).

Later Jesus echoed this same principle in a showdown with the religious leaders. "They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham." "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do." (John 8:39, 44).

Paul wrote, "Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham." (Gal. 3:7).
"For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh." (Phil. 3:3).
Thus, according to Paul, a real Jew in the sight of God is anybody-Jew or Gentile-who has personal faith in Jesus Christ!

Peter told a room full of Gentile converts, "Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him." (Acts 10:34, 35).

All Israel Saved?

We all know that we are saved under the new covenant, right? Notice the wording of the new covenant: "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah." (Jer. 31:31).
And in the book of Hebrews, Paul expands on this concept: "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. ... For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more." (Heb. 8:8, 10-12).

The new covenant is made "with the house of Israel".
God never makes a salvation covenant with Gentiles.
In fact, nowhere in Scripture do you find any saving covenant made with anyone but Israelites.
So if you want to be saved, you must be born again, as a spiritual Jew.
This is not to say that all Christians must now be circumcised and sacrifice lambs, but we must have the spiritual equivalent of these things-Jesus, the Lamb of God, and circumcision of the heart.

God does not have one method of salvation for Jews and a different brand for non-Jews.
Everyone is saved the same way under the same program.
By grace through faith.
Paul used the analogy of an olive tree to explain that all Gentiles who are saved are grafted into the stock of Israel.
"And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root [supports] thee." (Rom. 11:17, 18) .

The Christian religion is based on a Jewish manual called the Bible. (In light of this fact, it is extremely difficult to understand how any real Christian could be anti-Semitic.) Christianity is not a new religion, but rather the completion of the Jewish faith.

With this truth in mind, we can now better understand what Paul meant when he said, "And so all Israel shall be saved." (Rom. 11:26).
Some have taken this verse to mean that God will ultimately save all literal Jews.
If this were true, it would contradict every principle of God's dealings with humans throughout history and Scripture.
God is not a racist. In Jesus' eyes, "There is neither Jew nor Greek." (Gal. 3:28) .

We are saved based on choices we make regarding God's provision, not on national status or physical citizenship.
But if when Paul says that "all Israel will be saved" he is speaking of spiritual Israel, and if we understand that we become a "true Jew" only by a choice, then it all makes sense.

The Application to Prophecy

How does all of this apply to prophecy?
The greatest book about prophecy, the book of Revelation, talks about Mount Zion, Israel, Jerusalem, the temple, the Euphrates, Babylon, and Armageddon.
Thus it is clear that Revelation uses the terminology of the Middle East in its prophecies.
Yet what is happening right now all over planet Earth is that sincere Christians are automatically applying these prophecies to literal places in the Middle East and to the modern nation of Jews.
Yet once we grasp the New Testament principles, we should be able to see that there is "something wrong with this picture."
The truth is that Revelation centers around Jesus Christ and God's Israel in the Spirit, not the Israel of the flesh.

Never forget that "they are not all Israel, which are of Israel." (Rom. 9:6).
"For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh." (Phil. 3:3).

Let us not live in the flesh or accept popular, convoluted teachings that focus on an earthly state. Rather, let us live in the Spirit. Like Jacob of old, let us wrestle in prayer and cling to Jesus until by faith we hear Him say, "Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed." (Gen. 32:28) .

Atkin · Dec 15, 2003

adam332 said:
How does all of this apply to prophecy?
The greatest book about prophecy, the book of Revelation, talks about Mount Zion, Israel, Jerusalem, the temple, the Euphrates, Babylon, and Armageddon.
Thus it is clear that Revelation uses the terminology of the Middle East in its prophecies.
Yet what is happening right now all over planet Earth is that sincere Christians are automatically applying these prophecies to literal places in the Middle East and to the modern nation of Jews.
Yet once we grasp the New Testament principles, we should be able to see that there is "something wrong with this picture."
The truth is that Revelation centers around Jesus Christ and God's Israel in the Spirit, not the Israel of the flesh.
.

Many people cannot comprehend any plan of God that does not place the flesh Jew on a higher pedestal.

I think this is because of what God said to Abraham. People feel that God's word must be held

for what was said regarding what God promsed the flesh seed from Abraham.

Everlasting promise to Jews .

Who is a Jew in God's eyes TODAY not in 1000BC?

Dad Ernie · Dec 15, 2003

Greetings Adam, et al.

I hope you have read what I posted on the "Kingdom of God". This is what Jesus preached. He never preached that gentiles become "spiritual Israel", and in fact this fantasy can be found nowhere in the NT. The Kingdom of God was once under the sole purview of Israel. Israel was where God "manifested His presence". BUT the "Kingdom of God" was taken from Israel and given to the "nations" (gentiles):

Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

From the time of the cross, the "presence of God" was removed from the nation of Israel. THIS IS NOT SPIRITUAL ISRAEL, as I have had some say to me, and you will find no scripture in the NT revealing such.

Did you know that Abraham was a gentile? And so was Isaac! It was not until Jacob, did Israel come into being. If you will do a study on the word Isaac, you may gain some understanding here. Here is an example:

Galatians 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

The children of promise was TO ISAAC. Isaac is the "type" of Christ. Remember Isaac WAS a gentile.

We are also children of Abraham "by faith". He too was a gentile.

Galatians 3:14-16 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. 15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. 16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Abraham's "seed" was Isaac NOT Jacob/Israel. Again Abraham WAS a gentile.

Romans 4:16-17 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, 17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

REMEMBER, the SEED is Isaac, a type of Christ NOT Jacob/Israel.

All the "types" in the OT point to Christ. That does not mean that gentiles acquire the "spirituality" of Israel. In fact read these verses carefully:

Hebrews 5:10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
Hebrews 6:20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Hebrews 9:7-9 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people: 8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: 9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

Melchisedec WAS A GENTILE! Yet Jesus was made a HIGH PRIEST "after the order of Melchisedec". He WAS NOT OF THE LEVITICAL PRIESTHOOD. So if you are anything, you are a SPIRITUAL GENTILE, if you serve Jesus Christ.

I believe what confuses you and others amounts to only a few verses on which I shall expound:

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Of these, Paul claims to be a part of the "remnant" of this TRUE Israel. You and I as gentiles cannot make that claim. Paul was both an Israelite by blood and BY FAITH in the God of Abraham.

As I have shown before in this forum, chapters 9 - 11 of Romans are grouped together under one heading - ISRAEL.

Ch. 9 Paul laments the rejecting of his brothers of the flesh of our Lord Jesus.
Ch. 10 Paul goes on to say HOW they will be saved - How can they hear unless someone is sent.
Ch. 11 Paul tells us that God has not totally rejected Israel, but has hardened their heart till the "fulness of the gentiles be come in". COME IN? COME IN? You ever wondered what that means? And this brings us to the next verses that might confuse some:

Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Romans 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

Paul here is NOT talking about ISRAEL or Spiritual Israel as the Olive Tree - but it is the "Kingdom of God", which once was solely of Israel, but THEY WERE LOPPED OFF FROM THE TREE! The Kingdom of God was TAKEN FROM THEM. Paul knew quite well that Jesus depicted Israel as the FIG TREE, and NOT the Olive Tree.

The next verses that seem to trouble man is:

Ephesians 2:12-13 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Please note the highlighted portion. ALL believers whether Jew or Gentile are MADE NIGH (in the Kingdom of God) by the blood of Christ. You and I are now friends with Paul and the Apostles and are made into ONE family - THE KINGDOM OF GOD!

Who do you think this verse refers to:

Romans 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

Thank you for taking the time to respond.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

sojeru · Dec 16, 2003

Hi Atkin and Dad Ernie.

wow, it seems that on this thread there seems to be a different take, if slightly at least, by you guys- I have only gone through breifly posts 47-49
and I will answer all the questions you have asked of me Atkin- and Dad Ernie I will respond accordingly.

In die time- hopefully tomorrow
shalom u'brachot (peace and blessings)
in Messiah
Antonio

sojeru · Dec 19, 2003

greetings to you ATKIN ( I am in blue and you are in black)

I will debate your points with you and will address all the issues you raised.

I am just a human being so I do not expect to mean much to the Jews.

1. What were you implying by your question below?
Quote:

I'll put it like this- WHAT GOOD ARE YOU TO A JEW?
you say you have Jesus but your Jesus does not do the Jews any good, AT ALL!

What I am saying is this- that since the Jesus of the Christians does away with what is the foundation (torah) he changes the Sabbath from the 7th day to the 1st day, and then calls it the Lords day. Then he does away with the feasts and festivals that are marked in the Torah to observe. This Jesus of the Christians is a false prophet.
However, does the way that the Christians believe in the Messiah Jesus make his actual person a false prophet? NO

And did the actual Jesus get rid of the feasts and festivals and change the Sabbath from the 7th day to the 1st day? NO

So, whose fault is it that Jesus is presented as such? The Christians! (I use this term in a general- majority aspect as I have met some Christians that have actually tried to observe the feasts and Sabbath in its proper way, they only lack Judaic principles- so these Christians deserve their credit for trying their best, according to their knowledge, to obey G-D in all that he said.)

So, I myself, and many other Orthodox Jews believe in the Messiah of the Torah that is recorded in the new testament. We see the fullness of truth of what is in the new testament and we obey and see that the Torah and the new testament are ONE and the same. The new testament is one of the greatest commentaries on Torah, Judaism and torah observance.

There is no difference between the Jesus of the Orthodox Jewish believers and the Jesus of the new testament. However, there is a difference between the Jesus of the Orthodox Jewish believers and the Jesus of the Christians.

Of course a human being like myself is just a human to the JEWS. Nothing more.

2. G-d inspired?? THE BOOKS OF MATTHEW, MARK, LUKE, JOHN ACTS, ROMANS, HEBREWS

All that came from the hand of heart of the apostles is breathed from the Spirit of Holiness- without error- for it is the Spirit of Messiah that dwells in them- and the Messiah is perfect and without error and He reveales the mysteries and secrets of the Torah of G-D. These are inspired writtings- and the emmisaries (apostles) are given such authority.

Sojeru,

a. Please give me a very very honest answer. WHAT errors do you think are in the last Books of the Bible

I do not believe that there are any errors in the writing of the Bible in any place- nor have I inferred that it was. The only errors that would exist in the entire bible would be scribal errors and scribal mistranslations of a few words.

b. If there are many false statements in your opinion, why were these statements placed in a God inspired Book??

Yes there are many beyond many false statements, However, you are dubious as to where and to whom I place the blame upon. Its understable, I guess, I have not made myself clear for you to understand which is the reason as to why you are asking these questions.
There is no error in bible save for that which I have made statement of in Question 2a.

c. WHY DID GOD go to all the effort in bringing Jesus to the Jews and Why did God inspire Jesus

This Messiah was given to the Jews for many A reason.

To begin the redemption of the Hebrews/Jews
- In order to begin the redemptive process in His time- He needed the people to have a love for the land of Yisrael and a love for all Hebrews.
- To fulfill 1a, He needed to disperse the land of Yisrael by causing Blindness to fall upon us Jews.
- Why was there a need of dispersion and restriction to enter Jerusalems gates? Other Jews of the diaspora during that time did not have an attachment to the Land of Yisrael that which was part of the covenant and faith of Avinu Avraham (our father Avraham).

There were Hebrews and Jews that remained in their land because of their riches. Many Jews of Babylonia chose to stay there because of riches and also because they gave it precedence over the land of Yisrael especially Jerusalem in which they meant it religiously. They saw Jerusalem second to Babylonia. Which is doing away with the covenant of Avraham. And Messiah came to correct it.

To cause Jealousy in the Jews.

He blinded the Jews from receiving him so that those that are dispersed can have a chance to enter into the faith. (the Jews are the Horse- and to keep a horse on the right path- a horse needs blinders. So they will not see the full picture- but some horses DO see the entire picture and remain on the right path.

THEN HE BLESSES THE GENTILES FOR A SPECIFIC MISSION, however, it does not look like many are fulfilling it right now- and this is the cause of the Sitra Archa(ç Aramaic. Yetzer Haraç Hebrew. Evil inclination- which is a refference to Satan). Until the gentiles re retaught what is their mission then there will be no second arrival of the Messiah as the Messiah of War.

d. VERY IMPORTANT question.

Which statements attributed to Jesus do you most disagree with.

For example WHAT DID JESUS MEAN by this ? John 8:58 Before Abraham WAS, I AM

Answer this question directly please. What exactly did Jesus MEAN? Do you fully agree with what he meant.

The Messiah said I AM, reffering to the Holy Name which is substituted by what we Jews say, HaShem. This is a mystery level reading from the book of John. Thus, Messiah attributed himself as the one who constantly and continuously creates the world, full of mercy and compassion as the name Yod-Hey-Vav-Hey inferrs. Messiah Yeshuah reffered to himself in the mystery level of knowledge correctly- and so he let the people know a character of the Spirit of Messiah. Thus he established a three fold Holiness to G-D. And yes I do agree with what He said.

Please explain what Jesus meant Here??

-- What did Jesus mean here ? IF YOU HAVE SEEN ME, YOU HAVE SEEN THE FATHER

Jesus was, however, the visible image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15; Hebrews 1:3). That is why
Jesus could say to Philip, "He who has seen me has seen the Father" (John 14:9; 12:45)

He who has seen my acts- he who has observed what I have done- even without me speaking- has seen the acts of G-D and his authority in me. I am the visible- yesod (foundation) image of G-D, and this is the Messiahs lowest form. I am that which is the visible light of that light that cannot be seen. I am that bridge to understnd that which cannot be seen- I am faith.

These portions of scripture has much to say to the Jewish mind. Not just what I wrote above but much much more.

Was Jesus's words as written NOT IN LINE WITH WHAT you believe?? Explain your answer.

It seems that your mind is as very much as a childs. You need to be told precisely and many times in different ways for you to understand- and this is ok- we all begin at this same place- I do urge you to PUSH beyond this mind frame. However, I do thank you for having such a mind- maybe you can present questions that have more difficulty to the life of those that say they believe- with your mind- Much can be given. Baruch HaShem!!

Jesus is my chief Rabbi- I must obey every single one of his Words. Everything he says is Torah- it is law and it must be obeyed.

No human being could ever say this--- WHAT DID JESUS MEAN? If you have seen someone and seen the Father, THEY ARE ONE AND THE SAME.

NO, in this you are wrong. Many people can say that if you have seen me you have seen the father. Thing is you misunderstand the implications of what it means. If Messiah is in you- then who is it that is showing through you? Is it you? OF COURSE IT IS! However, is it Messiah WHO IS INFACT the ETERNAL FATHER (however he does not receive DIVINE WORSHIP due to the SOURCE which is the nothing of G-D. This you will not be able to understand now- really!) that is showing through you? YES! So you and the father are one if YOUR LIFE does indeed show that it is. This makes you are part of the function of the Messiah.

Please explain what G-D meant here when he called Jesus G-D (like himself) EVERLASTING FATHER

Isaiah 9:6 G-D speaking about Jesus-- His name will be Mighty God, EVERLASTING FATHER

You are asking the same questions over and over again- and it is really getting monotinous now.

Now this is G-D's own words, not man. DO YOU AGREE WITH G-D'S naming of Jesus or do you have some explanation or is the name wrong in your opinion?? Explain why with reference to the original texts if necessary.
NOTICE, there is a difference to ALMIGHTY G-D (El Shaddai) and Mighty G-D (El geebor), however, He is Everlasting Father. So notice the difference between the levels of G-D and His Messiah. Yes the Messiah is the One G-D- however, this function of G-D will be given to the almighty in the end. Do you understand?

WAS JESUS lying?? Was His words twisted? Explain why you disgree with these words.

Why is it that you think I disagree- I only disagree with chr1stian interpretation of many subjects in bible. This current subject is only the top layer of skin. The deeper we get the more youand I will disagree. This is only a superficial topic and this only benefits you- because you are seeking to understand where I stand. Your over all question to me is, Where are you sojeru?

Please be very direct and defend your beliefs.. what you believe is what you believe.

Ummmm ok

3. SYNAGOGUE OF SATAN
You are wrong -- Jesus did not describe ALL JEWS AS OF THE SYNAGOGUE OF SATAN.
The words synagogue of SATAN REFERS to Jews who reject Jesus (among others)

no, not exactly. And notice, I was fighting against the interpretation that Adam gave- that was wrong- why do you equate his stance as the same exact words and stance of Messiah?

Even if you werent doing this knowingly- by your remarks against me- such as this one- that is exactly what you are doing.

I fight erroneous interpretations, NEVER what the Messiah said himself! SO THIS YOU NEED TO UNDERSTAND- that is why every comment you said was off- because of the way that you viewed my posts- You viewed my posts as an Orthodox Jew that does not recognize Jesus and is going against his words- you viewed me this way from the beginning and no matter how many times I said that Jesus is my chief rabbi (the head honcho, leader of all Rabbis, Authority over all Rabbis) you still chose your view. TISK TISK!

Many Orthodox Jews today engage in the same task that Jesus himself had engaged- which is to see the fulfillment of Torah! The Torah HAS NOT BEEN FULFILLED AS OF YET- but in the Messiah is the completion of Torah. NOW, there are THOSE JUDAIZERS which are a part of the Synagogue of Satan. Juidaizers have no part in the world to come for they say that a gentile needs to convert.

THIS IS THE SYNAGOGUE OF SATAN. For to see a gentile as a second class citizen is WRONG!
TRUE JUDAISM SAYS that let the gentile obey G-D PERFECTLY in the precepts that are given to him. If the gentile obeys sabbath- do not regard him as any other gentile- LET THE GENTILE OBEY sabbath perfectly unto our G-D.

This is the message of the apostles.

Also that NO GENTILE has need to convert to be recognized by G-D!

The Synagogue of Satan is one that fights against these principles!

To be continued

sojeru · Dec 19, 2003

It was used by Jesus HIMSELF (IS REVELATION A FALSE BOOK?) so It obviously does not refer to Himself, common sense. JESUS'S WORDS-- SYNAGOGUE OF SATAN REVELATION 2:9 REVELATION 3:9

Do you believe Jesus gave the Book of Revelation? Explain your answer I dont have a need to explain anything- any other chr1stian that takes the time to read all that I have written has more sence than you do-lolthis is not to offend you at all- However, this is to show you that you have not read well at all, anything that I have said to you or to anyone else.

I believe in bible as I have said before.

The point I see is that you do not believe much of the last Books in the Bible is TRULY INSPIRED OF GOD.

Well, you will have to explain why you think some of the statements are NOT INSPIRED OF GOD and why such statements were all placed together in those Books.

Again, I have nothing more to eplain- this is your view because you have not read well. And notice, if you view a mere man like this how can you understand the spiritual words of G-D?

YOU are the one that says that I do not believe in the inspired books- However, I know in all that I said, it is shown much differently- I do not believe in the claims that these people on these forums say are biblical. Sure- maybe you all have the concepts- however, thats just it, all they have are concepts and then build false ideas around them.

However, Bible has much to say against them.

This is very easy.

Quote

I wil not return to destroy Ephraim: for I [am] God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city.

God is not Man .. God is not fallible and petty and limited as Man.

God can take the form of Man and retain his infallibility. It does not mean God is too limited that he cannot

take the form of a human. That HUMAN would not be subject to ALL THE ERRORS that other humans make.

Temptation, selfishness, greed, envy, false doctrines etc....

God is Not man and God is not limited to not appearing in Flesh. This requires wisdom.

Sure, that is a good partial view to it. However, it all has to do with the WAY of HaShem- and it is not the way of men. This can be further explained- but I dont care to get deep within anything right now.

Quote:

James the brother of Jesus is recorded in the talmud. in slander!? NEVER and G-D FORBID! He is spoken Highly of as he is spoken highly of in History.

JAMES NEVER INSULTED JESUS... yes? James never disbelieved Jesus.. right?

Who said that he did?

So why does the Talmud speak highly of James AND NOT HIGHLY OF JESUS IF JAMES REGARDED JESUS HIGHLY?? Do you see how the Talmud appears inconsistent here??

No, the Talmud NEVER SPEAKS ABOUT Jesus at all.
If you are reffering to the portion called toldot Yeshu then that is the mistake of the chr1stians. The chr1stians read that portion of the Gemara in he Talmud and professed that it spoke against Jesus. The Jews said, Well, if you say that this speaks of your Jesus, ok we accept that. When in fact it spoke of a sorcerer whos name is to be blotted out (the name or title YSHU is an acronym meaning- may his name be blotted out and forgotten.)Now you can imagine the outsider reading the portion in the Gemara concerning this certain Yshu that lived 100 years before the Messiah Jesus, and equating this story to Jesus and claiming that the Jews have a record of Jesus in their talmud and it speaks against him.
TODAY- many Orthodox Jews know the above- however, there are also many Orthodox Jews and the reast of what is called Judaism (conservative, reform, reconstructionist) that call this Yshu Jesus, however, this train of thought begun with the chr1stians in the medieval period- and it found itself in Judaism not to long after.

Do not twist what I said- understand what I said here. Do you understand?

James 1:1 JAMES writes , A SERVANT OF GOD AND OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST

James constantly refers to Jesus as Lord Jesus Christ -- James 2:1 and many others

Now why does James REGARD JESUS AS LORD but the Talmud regards ONLY JAMES, BUT NOT JESUS AS LORD?? You have a serious inconsistency here in the Talmud and you need to explain why..There is no explanation needed- the Talmud does not mention Jesus at all.

Please do not tell me that James IS A FALSE BOOK

James is not a false book.

Why does that Talmud regard James but disagree with James regarding Jesus as Lord.

It doesnt, It never mentions Jesus at all.

It seems that Talmud and Judaism IS AFRAID OF A HUMAN WHO IS VERY CLOSE TO GOD and is one with God.

Not at all, I suggest that you study a group within Judaism, it is called chabad-lubavich and see what the rest of Judaism has against them. And the talmud and Jews can easily say that one of the three visitors that came to Avraham was G-D himself.

And the Zohar, a Mystical bookin Judaism also gives witness to this.

Questions
What is so wrong IF GOD DECIDED TO MANIFEST HIMSELF AS A MAN.?? Explain your views

Why would God HAVE A SERIOUS DIFFICULTY AND FIND IT VERY DIFFICULT TO MANIFEST himself as flesh??

He doesntJ

Why would that be dangerous and disturbing for orthodox Jews?

It isnt, however, it does depend on how that can happen- so your belief must cover/stop every loop hole there is in proving the other end. So that means for you there is much more study concerning how a man can be G-D. However, I am well on my way to holding this doctrine above everyones heads, for I believe that I almost have the completion of How Messiah Jesus is G-d.

Quote:

WRONG! I suggest you look up the description of Messiah in Jewish writting- The Orthodox Jews know that the 1st comming is a suffering Messiah, one who is not splendid at all.
so then, WHY do they not recieve your Jesus?
Because he abolishes the Torah.

shalom

You have stated that Jesus abolishes the Torah.

State the Biblical verse that proves this and let us see when Jesus abolished the Torah.

Notice How I said, YOUR JESUS

If you are a follower of the Jesus that demands the observance of Torah- then you are indeed in the correct path and believe ini the correct messiah- However, the majority of chr1stianity does not believe as you do- IF this is infact your belief.

I have met other christians that can give testimony to the fact that Jesus is the END (termination) of the Torah. This is in fact, a misreading. And I have gone through extensive study and writing to prove other wise and I have- but it is up to the reader to receive it or not.

I want the words of Jesus himself saying He abolishes the Torah else you are imagining things.
well many christians quote paul for the termination of Torah by the Messiah- in which the christians are wrong to interpret his words as such.

TO BELIEVE and CONFESS the Messiah is to believe in his merit and everything he accomplished and NOT TO ADD OR TAKE AWAY ONE ACT OF WHAT he had done.

Christianity does in fact do the opposite. They add and take away to what the Messiah has done- and this is wrong.

Why would Jesus quote from the Torah and yet abolish the Torah.?

Ahhh, it is because he didnt abolish the Torah- but do Christians (the majority) see and agree to this? No! There are many of these forums that will fight you if you said this to them. However, maybe Im understanding Your terminology, but not the fullness of your thought- Mybe, in the end, you will agree with them?

DAD ERNIE, HI

Greetings Sojeru,

Quote: Because he abolishes the Torah.

Here is what is written:

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Matthew 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
Matthew 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Matthew 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Matthew 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Matthew 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Romans 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Of course there are many more verses. But as you can see Jesus came to put the "law" (the Torah) in its proper perspective.

I agree! Messiah is the completion, the FULLNESS of Torah! AND YOU ARE RIGHT, the entirety of the "new testament" IS ONE WITH THE TORAH! Have you not read my signature?
He is no the alpha and omega (as in the greek) However, He is the ALEPH and the TAV (beginning and last letter of the Hebrew and aramaic aleph-bet) and there are only two words that have Aleph and Tav in the Hebrew. 1 of them is ALEPH-TAV pronounced ET (eht- as in alphabET.) and it doesn't have an exact meaning- however, in the sentance it is used in- it gives the meaning of completion to whatthe sentence is speaking about. let see it in english and insert et in there.
"I had a full glass of "et" water."
now, outsiders of Hebrew do not know what et means however, im sharing it now- this sentence would connotate that not only was the galss full of water, However, that the water itself was full and complete.
And
2. ALEPH-MEM-TAV (EMET/EMETH which means truth) Notice how it has a MEM in between the aleph and the Tav. The mem is the letter of Water in Hebrew which water is transalted as MAYIM (mah-yeem). This shows that the truth or the completion flows as water and it must flow as water- it could be raging waters or even calm waters- but the truth must flow as water.

and this is what the Messiah was saying when he said in the greek, "alpha and Omega" He is the ALEPH AND THE TAV (the completion and truth that flows as water)

shalom

The Orthodox Jew believes that by obedience to the law that they will be justified before God/the Messiah.

WRONG! The Orthodox Jew knows that only by Grace are we to receive the promises of G-D and his righteousness as our father Abram had received. G-D GAVE Avram the hey (hebrew letter which is symbolic of grace) and inserted it to his name. And notice that there are to heys in the name of Yod- Hey- Vav- hey this shows the character of G-d that gave Avram such a name and became Avraham.

So we Jews KNOW that we are saved and justified by grace.

So why do we continue in observance of the Torah so zealously? It is because we Love G-D that we will embark on the mission that He gave the Hebrew people- which is to purify the souls of men- that means to get rid of the evil inclination- And the Messiah gave us power to do so in remembering his merit and acting upon it! So your statement above flies out the window- However, it can be applied to the legalist. And the majority of Orthodox Jews are NOT legalists.

This is not the case at all. It is by "grace through faith" by which we receive our salvation, and that is in Jesus Christ.

Already shown above how Orthodox Jews believe this, even before Messiah Yeshuah came into the earth.

Shalom ubrachot

deu58 · Dec 19, 2003

Hello sojeru

I have posted on the Jewish Sabbath at a Jewish site and all confirmed that no Gentile is obligated to observe the Sabbath or Torah but are under the Covenant of Noah. And no gentile should try to observe Sabbath and torah unless they decide to fully convert to Judaism, which they claim they claim they counsel the gentile not to do. but if after counseling the gentile still wishs to convert they may do so but now that person is no longer under the noahchide law but under the full law of Moses

I also visited one site that claimed orthodox Jews also hold that a gentile is under the covenant of Noah. Curiuos to see what your opionion is on this

yours in Christ
deu58

Atkin · Dec 21, 2003

sojeru said:
James the brother of Jesus is recorded in the talmud. in slander!? NEVER and G-D FORBID! He is spoken Highly of as he is spoken highly of in History.

JAMES NEVER INSULTED JESUS... yes? James never disbelieved Jesus.. right?

Who said that he did?

So why does the Talmud speak highly of James AND NOT HIGHLY OF JESUS IF JAMES REGARDED JESUS HIGHLY?? Do you see how the Talmud appears inconsistent here??

No, the Talmud NEVER SPEAKS ABOUT Jesus at all.
If you are reffering to the portion called toldot Yeshu then that is the mistake of the chr1stians. The chr1stians read that portion of the Gemara in he Talmud and professed that it spoke against Jesus. The Jews said, Well, if you say that this speaks of your Jesus, ok we accept that. When in fact it spoke of a sorcerer whos name is to be blotted out (the name or title YSHU is an acronym meaning- may his name be blotted out and forgotten.)Now you can imagine the outsider reading the portion in the Gemara concerning this certain Yshu that lived 100 years before the Messiah Jesus, and equating this story to Jesus and claiming that the Jews have a record of Jesus in their talmud and it speaks against him.
TODAY- many Orthodox Jews know the above- however, there are also many Orthodox Jews and the reast of what is called Judaism (conservative, reform, reconstructionist) that call this Yshu Jesus, however, this train of thought begun with the chr1stians in the medieval period- and it found itself in Judaism not to long after.

Do not twist what I said- understand what I said here. Do you understand?

James 1:1 JAMES writes , A SERVANT OF GOD AND OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST

James constantly refers to Jesus as Lord Jesus Christ -- James 2:1 and many others

Now why does James REGARD JESUS AS LORD but the Talmud regards ONLY JAMES, BUT NOT JESUS AS LORD?? You have a serious inconsistency here in the Talmud and you need to explain why..There is no explanation needed- the Talmud does not mention Jesus at all.

Please do not tell me that James IS A FALSE BOOK

James is not a false book.

Why does that Talmud regard James but disagree with James regarding Jesus as Lord.

It doesnt, It never mentions Jesus at all.

Hi Sojeru,

You laid out your points and answered the questions. I will expand on some issues in response but

there is one area I'd like to discuss first.

Were the writers of the Talmud perhaps not aware of the Lord Jesus ?

It seems they have omitted a very very important one, the Messiah, in their writings.

Could you explain why the writers of the Talmud had no idea about the teachings of Christ

since they believed He was the Messiah. Disagreeing with what Paul wrote takes NOTHING away

from Jesus the Messiah, as you have pointed out from you belief in him.

Why then , could people like Abraham and James be found in the Talmud but the Messiah

who is above all cannot be found in the Talmud. It would be easy to write about the Talmud's

account of Yeshua and point out what the Talmud may see differentn from Paul's writings

while clearly giving praise to the Messiah Jesus in the Talmud.

The Talmud becomes useless without any mention of God and an important Jewish writing as the Talmud

cannot exist in authenticity without clear teachings about God and His life on earth but most

importantly about His teachings about upholding the Torah etc, which were recorded by Jews

when He lived in Judea in the early part of the 1st century.

Even mere Abraham, (who is not Messiah Yeshua) is in the Talmud and he lived even earlier in more
ancient times hence the Talmud must surely account for Yeshua Messiah's teachings and life seeing that
the Talmud was written to teach Jews and possibly others about how best to lead lives acceptable in the
sight of God.

But to do this without any reference to the Lord makes that Talmud seem worthless in helping Jews

maintain pure lives as Yeshua. Please explain carefully why the Talmud writers made this huge

omission and reduced the message in the Talmud by overlooking glaringly, Yeshua Messiah whom

they must have surely known, historically and otherwise, from his life in Judea.

adam332 · Dec 21, 2003

Man... y'all sure have it in for us protestants. The Jews claim the Sabbath is theirs and is not for the Gentiles. Meanwhile... the Catholics claim that Sunday is theirs and that no protestant, who does not recognize the authority of the Catholic Church to CHANGE God's laws, should partake in it.

Where does that leave protestants who don't recognize the RCC's authority but believe the Bible and not the Jews interpretation thereof?

The bottom line is; the Lord gave the Sabbath to man, he blessed it and sanctified 2300yrs before a Jew existed. Who was to get a blessing from it, if not man-kind?

There is NOT ONE SHRED of Biblical evidence that the Sabbath was exclusively for Jews and/or Israelites. Yet there is plenty of evidence that the ceremonial, moral, and civil laws were recognized and given before any Jews existed...thus making the Jews selfish claims to the Sabbath worthless to any Bible reading child of God.

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