Creationists: "We don't have to prove anything!"

Can creationism (YEC, OEC, GAP, ID) be proven scientifically?

  • Yes, YEC/OEC/GAP/ID can be proven scientifically with empirical data.

  • No, my views are based on my faith, and are not scientifically provable.


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Hydra009

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Ok, just a bit of clarification, this kind of thing has come up so much that it warrants its own thread:

Creationists generally claim that their creationism beliefs are scientific and should be taught in science classrooms. Then, when they are asked for any evidence of creationism, they claim that God and the Bible are beyond the scope of science.

Maybe I'm just going crazy, but creationists seem to be simultaneously proposing that creationism is science but doesn't have to be scientifically proven! How very convient! It is essentially trying to acquire the credibility of science without having to undergo the inconvience of the methods of science.

So, Creationists (including IDists), I ask you this:

Can your views be verified scientifically, with empricial data?



If you answered yes, please post said empirical data.

If you answered no, please stop calling it science, because it obviously isn't science.
 

Oncedeceived

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The Creation sequences have been tested Scientifically.

1. The universe had a beginning. (Big Bang)
2. The life forms were created in an order.
A. From simplier to more complex
B. Other than two taxa being out of order from
Known fossil records they have been established
 
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T

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Oncedeceived said:
The Creation sequences have been tested Scientifically.

1. The universe had a beginning. (Big Bang)
2. The life forms were created in an order.
A. From simplier to more complex
B. Other than two taxa being out of order from
Known fossil records they have been established
Have the parts about light coming before light sources and both the Earth and plants existing before the sun been proven?
 
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Hydra009

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Oncedeceived said:
The Creation sequences have been tested Scientifically.

1. The universe had a beginning. (Big Bang)
2. The life forms were created in an order.
A. From simplier to more complex
B. Other than two taxa being out of order from
Known fossil records they have been established
I'm talking about YEC/OEC/GAP/ID, not theism or Christianity. Hopefully, you've learned to tell the difference.
 
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Oncedeceived

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Irish_Guevara said:
I'm talking about YEC/OEC/GAP/ID, not theism or Christianity. Hopefully, you've learned to tell the difference.

How does my comment come under Christianity/theism and not OEC or GAP or ID?

I am a OEC. So, I guess my comment is relevant.
 
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Jon

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It is not required that someone have evidence for their belief, but hopefully one has a reason to believe what they do.
Isaiah 1:18
"Come now, let us reason together," says the LORD .



Depending on how you interpret things, creationism is logical, scientific, and reasonable.
 
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notto

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Oncedeceived said:
Please tell me why you feel that Creationism is not reasonable, logical or Scientific?

If you are using the standard definition of Creationism as put forth by Creationist ministries. It would not be reasonable, logical, or scientific because it has been falsified by reason, logic, and science.

I know that in the past, you have used a different definition than the one that is usually used by ministries such as ICR or AIG so your milage may vary.

What definition of creationism do you think is reasonable, logical, and scientific?
 
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Hydra009

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Jon said:
It is not required that someone have evidence for their belief, but hopefully one has a reason to believe what they do.
Hopefully, a creationist will someday actually answer this question. I'll repeat: can [enter your creationist belief here] be proven scientifically or not?

Depending on how you interpret things, creationism is logical, scientific, and reasonable.
Sure, if up is down, polka dot pants are fashionable, and the entire universe were put on its head, then creationism would be logical, scientific, and reasonable. But it's not.

Stats for this thread so far:
Attempts to answer the question: zero
Attempts to provide any scientific data for any brand of creationism: zero
 
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Oncedeceived

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notto said:
If you are using the standard definition of Creationism as put forth by Creationist ministries. It would not be reasonable, logical, or scientific because it has been falsified by reason, logic, and science.

I know that in the past, you have used a different definition than the one that is usually used by ministries such as ICR or AIG so your milage may vary.

What definition of creationism do you think is reasonable, logical, and scientific?

Mine of course. :p

Creationism: The processes of creation used by God (The Christian God) to form the universe and everything in it.

Although Creationism to me is not a Scientific study in itself it should and does not conflict with KNOWN Scientific data and is logical and reasonable to research the Creation and the processes used in that Creation process to determine how that process was performed.
 
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Oncedeceived

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Irish_Guevara said:
Hopefully, a creationist will someday actually answer this question. I'll repeat: can [enter your creationist belief here] be proven scientifically or not?

uh, I answered your question.
Sure, if up is down, polka dot pants are fashionable, and the entire universe were put on its head, then creationism would be logical, scientific, and reasonable. But it's not.

Please tell me where my answer is up is down and polka dot pants are fashionable....

Where does my answer conflict with Scientific data?

Stats for this thread so far:
Attempts to answer the question: zero

Well you must not be able to count or you are simply ignoring answers given.

Attempts to provide any scientific data for any brand of creationism: zero

The Scientific data is out there already. Study of the processes of Creation are all studies of nature/earth/universe. You can't separate it. TOE is the study of the processes of Creation.
 
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TarHollow

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Ah, yes, as humans we feel we have to have all the scientific answers to understand how the universe was created.

Here's some Bible verses I live by as a christian that help me accept Creationism:

Genesis 1:1, In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. It doesn't say how it was done, but that God did it.

Heb. 11:3 By faith we understand the universe was created at Gods command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible. How can you make something out of nothing? Well, if it's not visible to us, and if God created it, he can do it anyway he wants! And that doesn't mean we as humans have to understand it.

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding. This seconds what I said in the above verse. The universe and how it was created is not explained in the Bible, yet neither should us Christians trust in our own understanding, nor in anyone else's understanding.

John 20:29 Because you have seen you believe. Greatest are those who have not seen and yet have believed. Jesus said this to a "doubting Thomas" when he said he would have to see Jesus face to face to believe he had indeed been raised from the dead. We live in a society where seeing is believing. Yet there is not one place in the Bible that says we have to know all of God's works and how and why he does things the way He does. Actually, it's just the opposite. We live by faith as Christians, not by sight, and certainly not by science.

And just one last thing; (I hope this thread isn't too long): Doctor Billy Graham, in the 40's, had a degree in Anthropology at an early time in his evangelism. While no one at that time had heard of him, he was having some personal struggles. He was considering abandoning his ministry, for the scientific facts had learned in college did not match up to what he was preaching. I guess you could say he was having the same struggles all of us believers have at times.
One night, he left his motel room, took a walk in the woods with his Bible, opened it face up on a tree stump, and fell to his knees. He looked up at the stars and admitted to God that he doesn't have all the answers; that what the Bible teaches does not match what we see in science and discoveries. But then he added, I will, by faith, continue preaching God's word if it's God's will. He claims that at that moment, he felt a presence of God like he had never felt before.
A few days later, he arrived at a circus tent for his scheduled sermon and was astonished to be surrounded by reporters. It seemed that Howard Hughes, the media magnate, had gotten out the word to "puff up Graham". The rest, as we know it, is history. He has evangelized all over the world to millions over the last six decades. (The complete story of this account is in his autobiography, "Just as I Am".)

And all this was possible by faith, the same faith the Bible tells us to have. And that's all the faith, all the knowledge, we as Christians need to have in our lives.
 
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Bargainfluger

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TarHollow said:
And all this was possible by faith, the same faith the Bible tells us to have. And that's all the faith, all the knowledge, we as Christians need to have in our lives.
But what is the nature of the faith of which the bible speaks? Is it believing in something that can't be proven, or is it believing in something that has been proven wrong?
 
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Hydra009

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Oncedeceived said:
uh, I answered your question.
No you haven't. It's a pretty simple yes or no question, too. We've established that you are OEC, but you haven't explicitly established whether or not you believe your OEC views can be verified by science or even shown any supporting evidence for such a position. (The Big Bang is a non-answer as it can also support biological evolution)

Please tell me where my answer is up is down and polka dot pants are fashionable....

Where does my answer conflict with Scientific data?
Um, I was talking to Jon in that post.

Well you must not be able to count or you are simply ignoring answers given.
Nope, just still waiting for a straight answer.

The Scientific data is out there already. Study of the processes of Creation are all studies of nature/earth/universe. You can't separate it. TOE is the study of the processes of Creation.
Why are you having such a hard time understanding what creationism is and isn't? Once again, non-specific everything answers are useless.
 
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Hydra009

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TarHollow said:
Ah, yes, as humans we feel we have to have all the scientific answers to understand how the universe was created.

Here's some Bible verses I live by as a christian that help me accept Creationism:<snip>
Ok, creationism because the Bible says so. That's great, but it doesn't answer the question. Do you believe whatever brand of creationism you hold can be investigated by science? If yes, can you provide any scientific evidence to verify the validity of whatever brand of creationism you hold?
 
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Jon

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Irish_Guevara said:
Sure, if up is down, polka dot pants are fashionable, and the entire universe were put on its head, then creationism would be logical, scientific, and reasonable. But it's not.

You asked the question "Can your views be verified scientifically?", I answered Yes, and you proceed to call me stupid? Did you ask us the question so you can mock us? Who are you to say your logic is right and ours is not? Are you God? Did you witness the creation?
There is no way to prove what happend six thousand years ago, we can only reason.
 
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kahri

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Jon said:
You asked the question "Can your views be verified scientifically?", I answered Yes, and you proceed to call me stupid? Did you ask us the question so you can mock us? Who are you to say your logic is right and ours is not? Are you God? Did you witness the creation?
There is no way to prove what happend six thousand years ago, we can only reason.

6000 years ago? You'll have to go about 14 billion years further back to actually get to creation.
 
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