Endure2 said:
FOMWATTS
....so your answer is YES, God does deliberately send people to hell.
well man, thats just heartless.
...yes God uses his wisdom to counfound the wise and destroy the uncanny.
To whom was that addressed?
God loves the unbeliever no more than God loves satan?
I speak of the one who remains an unbeliever forever. God offers love. But, when God is refused, God has only wrath for those who refuse to believe in Jesus Christ.
John 3:36
"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.
You see God's wrath as being love for those who refuse to believe? And, God's love for the believer is his love for the Son who was made one with those who believe in Him. The love God has for the believer is because of who and what Jesus is. His righteousness is imputed to us. We have no righteousness of our own.
1 Corinthians 1:30
"It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from Godthat is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption."
God loves us because of who we have become in Christ! The unbeliever (who remains an unbeliever) never receives the righteousness of Christ. God can not love what is not righteous.
Philippians 3:9
"and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christthe righteousness that comes from God and is by faith."
God can not love evil. We have no righteousness from our natural selves that he can love. Once we believe in Jesus Christ, God is then free to love us.
i was once an unbeliever, and when a person says " do this and ill love you... but if not i dont" thats not love at all man. the bible says when we were yet sinners Christ died for us, that means he loved us when we were yet sinners. though im not going to make this an argument over symantics.
That was God offering love. He offered his love. If we reject his offer (salvation) then only the wrath of God remains on us. It does not say God then directs his wrath on us for rejecting him. It says his wrath remains.
John 3:36
"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.
your whole rebuttal based on the nature of hitler hangs completely on the string that God doesnt love people who end up in hell and that God doesnt love hitler. david said that even if he made his bed in hell, then God is there too.
"If I ascend up into heaven, You are there; if I make my bed in Sheol (the place of the dead), behold, You are there." Psalm 139:8 (Amplified Bible)
Difference between David and Hitler, was that David was a believer. David was speaking figuratively, not literally. He was showing how nothing can separate the believer from the love of God. Not even death.
Hell is not used in the original language. Hell, was a KJV mistranslation. Under the earth there was a waiting place for all OT saints. One which was not "Torments." It was a place where believers waited for their redemption, which finally came when Jesus went to the Cross. If you read Luke 16:22-24, you will see that in Sheol there existed at least two different places. One for the believer, and one for the unbeliever. It does not say that David went to Hell. That is a KJV translation problem.
God does love people even if they go to hell, the bible says God does not delight in the destruction of the wicked, he doesnt like it... he would rather they not go to hell, because he loves them.
He does not love them. He loves what he could have made them to become if they only believed. To say God loves those whom are objects of his wrath is to say God is double minded. He can not love evil.
"But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed." Romans 2:5
he doesnt just put people there. becuase he loves us even when were sinners.
"But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." Romans 5:8 niv
It does not say that he loved us. It says that he demonstrated his love. He displayed his love. He offered his love to us. His love was on display. He was revealing the love he can have for us as soon as we are made free to be objects of his love. That is, once we are seen as made to be "in Christ."
God sees who will believe. He also sees who will refuse. God is not confused and all emotional over this issue. As far as God is concerned he knows the beginning from the end. God does not waiver in his feeling towards a man. He already knows all there is to know about him. He may offer his love to tjose who refuse to believe many times in their lifetime. But, he is only offering his love. They are not something (in themselves) that he is free to love for what they are.
For those he knows will believe, he draws in his love. Since he can already see us as saved and in Heaven, he is free to have a love for us because he knows we will believe. But, God does not love those who are stubborn and refuse to repent of their unbelief. That would be like George Bush inviting Osama bin Laden to go on a fishing trip with him.
all through the old testament we read of Gods words and interactions toward heathen isrealites.... he did deal with them, but he said things like "why are you doing this? just come back to me. i would restore you and bless you if youd just come back. why have you forsaken me?"
That is because they were already his. Like a rebellious teenager who parents weep over when their child does bad things and follows the crowd.
God was not unloving toward his sinful people... he did deal with them harshly... but the bible says God chatises "THOSE HE LOVES".
Yup! But he does not chastise those who he knows will not believe in Him.
"Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons." Hebrews 12:7-8 niv
I can not print what the KJV says. Because the 'bad word' filter will not allow for it to appear. But, to give you a hint. It says that those whom are not the Father's. These are "bast_rd's. Without a father.
the bible says in 2 tim he died as a ransom for all sins and all sinners and would that all come to a saving knowledge of the truth. he loves us. and this applies to those who dont ever do any of that too. he died for those sins that are never repented of, becuase he loves those people too.
Its in love that God desires all to believe. For he desires all to know him. But, evil refuses. He hates evil.
"Just as it is written: Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated. Ro 9:13
no the lake of fire is not a picture of Gods love, but it doesnt mean God doesnt love people who go there...
We will find Esau in the Lake of Fire. Did God say he loves Esau?
"Just as it is written: Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.
he died and did all he could to keep people from ever having to go. his love is the cross that paved the way to freeing people from hell... and he did this for everyone, even those who never walk it.
God loves everyone. and he doesnt want anyone in hell.
God
demonstrated his love for everyone on the Cross. He showed the world who and what he is, not what he feels towards those whom he knows will reject and hate him forever. God was leaving all who refuse to repent to be without excuse by his demonstration of love. If they would only turn to him? All would be forgiven. But, they refuse. That is God's love. Turn to him and all is forgiven. He does not hold a grudge. He only will give love.
Grace and peace, GeneZ