Can a Person Lose Salvation?

theywhosowintears said:

I honestly believe that if you get saved, you can lose your salvation. It is a gift that you can choose to accept, but like a natural gift you can misuse it or discard it altogether, if you are living as a slave to sin, ignoring Christ's gift that you once cherished you will not enter heaven.

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Do you know the remainder of the verse that your nick comes from? Do you believe it is true? I'm not asking you to answer me, that is between you and the Lord. All those who think they can lose their salvation do so "honestly".
The gift that God gives is not natural but supernatural. It cannot be given back or discarded. You would have to have supernatural power to do this.
You are already a citizen of heaven.

For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, Phil.3:20

This is known as positional truth. That is the position from which we are to work out our salvation. In this way Christ is glorified as we walk by faith being filled with the Spirit. We do not glorify Christ by beating ourselves, or each other, over the head with our sins.

"It is finished". The debt is paid. The Father wanted justice, He got justice. There is no more penalty to be paid for sin. The reason the scriptures are so adamant about not sinning is, not because it will send us to hell, (which is not the penalty for sin anyway, spiritual death is) but because we cannot glorify Christ if we sin and that is the purpose of the Body, to glorify our Lord.

"You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free" Jn.8:32

You know, sometimes I wonder.... and I do not mean any disrespect in saying this to you or any other who reads this, but if we spend our time constantly "looking over our shoulder" to see if we are committing a sin or not, how free are we really? Where are we really placing our faith, in God's Word or our own abilities?

My prayer is we all continue to grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ who is our Lord and Saviour.

peace

hoser said:

The fact that people believe in this false man-made doctrine is mind boggling to me. Why if one can never lose their salvation no matter what they do does scripture talk about the avoidance of sin so much? If you cannot lose your salvation why the need for this talk? Since sin will not cause a saved person from losing that salvation then the avoidance of sin is unimportant.

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Question?

What did Jesus die for on the Cross? What did he pay for with his death?


Grace and peace, GeneZ

FOMWatts<>< said:

Rebelling is going against God's ways, not His will. Did he not allow Jonah to run away from his duty to speak out in the horrible place called Ninevah, but did He not also, purpose a stinkin' whale to swallow Jonah and break him down so that he would submit and realize his error? Don't you think we learn from our rebellion??? God wants us to learn and sometimes he gives us over to Satan to make us learn, take a gander at the book of Job, or the life of Paul, was it Paul that decided to become a Christian and stop killing them, or was it not God who appeared before him and changed his heart??? God did it, God did it, and God did it...

FOM<><

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Are you saying God's ways are not necessarily God's will? So He wills something but then acts differently???

FOMWatts, am I correcting in thinking you don't believe humans have free will?

sawdust said:

Are you saying God's ways are not necessarily God's will? So He wills something but then acts differently???

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What I am saying is that God makes EVERYTHING come back to Himself in the form of glory. I am saying that though God is not a liar, He allows the father of lies to spread his lies, but He purposes the results of those lies that are spread to the glory of Himself.

I don't think I am being unclear.

FOM<><

tdcharles said:

FOMWatts, am I correcting in thinking you don't believe humans have free will?

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You are kind of correct. What I believe is that our perception is that of "free-will", that is that we choose all that we do and believe. I believe that God is the Creator of all that is on the earth and purposed or made things work as all Creators do. He made me, all my physical characteristics, and also made my brain and tweaked it to think and operate the way He wants in order to fulfill a bigger purpose, HIS purpose. So even though we feel as though we are making a choice as to rebel from God, we are fulfilling a bigger purpose, that can be a purpose as a child of His wrath or a child of His mercy.

FOM<><

So he deliberately sends people to hell? What purpose does that serve?

DrBubbaLove said:

And we must disagree there. God, Jesus is Lord of all and EVERY knee will bow. Some of those knees will be forced. The point is who do you follow each day, every moment of this life, but Jesus is still Lord regardless of our choices.

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But, it says..... "Our Lord."


In your case, it would have to say, "The Lord." He is Lord over them, but God is not their Father.


"If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons." Hebrews 12:7-9 niv

Not every one can say about Jesus, "our Lord." They will confess that Jesus Christ "is" Lord. But, they will not say he is "our Lord." These do not have God as Father. If you do not have the Father, you can not have the Son. If you do not have the Son, God has no love for you. He only extends his hands and offers love to the unsaved. But, He loves the unbeliever, no more than he loves Satan.

And, you missed the context. Here it is.

"Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? Romans 8:35 niv

If you think that speaks of all men? Believer, and unbeliever? Well, I do not know what you think. For, it continues on to say....

"For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 8:38-40 niv

You are saying that God loved Hitler, and that nothing will separate Hitler from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord???????? Even death will not separate him from the love of God?!

I know that love is warming to the heart. But? The Lake of Fire is God's love to the unbeliever? After all, it also included that death can not separate us from the love of God. Well? Still sticking to your story?

actually it says seperate us "from the Love" of Our Lord. We are born seperated from the Lord, our discussion is how to get back to Him. His Love is everywhere and available to ALL, so none are seperated from that. Our means of getting back to Him involve daily, moment by moment choices.

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You still want to stick to what you handed me?

If you do. I will not touch it. Even with thick gloves on. For death would absolutely separate the unbeliever from the way you want us to believe it to be. You can not possibly be right. That is, if one does not see the Lake of Fire as being God's love. Do you?

Enjoying the scenery....... Grace and peace, GeneZ

tdcharles said:

So he deliberately sends people to hell? What purpose does that serve?

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His purpose...Romans 9:14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
******and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[f] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

***19One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ”[h] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

***22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath–prepared for destruction?(they were MADE for hell, to see why, read the next verse) 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory(these are His elect)– 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

We do not always know how or why God does things, but we do know that He uses His wisdom, which confounds the wise of this world.

FOM<><

sawdust said:

As far as timing is concerned explain to me this.

"as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent." Jn.17:2&3

If eternal life and salvation are the same thing then by saying you do not have salvation until "after death" you are, by your own admission, saying you know neither God nor Jesus Christ.

If however you want to explain that salvation and eternal life are not synonymous, then how can you have eternal life but not salvation? You see this is just one of the many, many areas of those who want to teach that salvation is not secure that gets me all confused. (least I would be if not for the Word)

with respect
peace

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You must understand that we have protestors at a slight disadvantage and I do not mean to belittle or show no respect for you or you views in saying this.

It is simply an acknowledgement of my own limitations and the abundance of authoritative support and teaching behind the Church. So it must be made clear that I would never attempt to rely on my own understanding of these scriptures (which the Church gave us BTW) or any of the Bible or Church teachings for that matter. And why should I? The Church has been studying and teaching from these same scriptures for nearly two thousand years. Interesting that you should think this verse would be difficult for me as I think it both beautiful, profound and a deep statement of our faith. It covers some deep topics. So the answer is not brief but I will try.

You quote a prayer of Our Lord Jesus Christ from the Garden to His Father hours before his arrest, torture and then death as recorded by Saint John and apparently overheard by someone, presumably an Apostle or other disciple. A death BTW Jesus freely went to as a sacrifice for us all. As a Divine person speaking to another Divine person, (2 of 3 making One God) we would say such statements would not be reflecting on or speaking of time from our perspective. In fact out of necessity of God’s very nature, their view would be from outside of time as we see it. Given that perspective your quote becomes a glorifying to God statement of facts coming at the beginning of what is Jesus petition to the Father on behalf of his disciples (both present and disciples of the future).

Using NAB, (sorry as it is closer to how I speak and in this case I do not see it changing the meaning):
3 just as you gave him authority over all people, so that he may give eternal life to all you gave him. 4 Now this is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.
The first part of the statement affirms the Truth that Jesus has authority over, is indeed Lord of all of us (all flesh in your version).

“Giving eternal life” here clearly means the gift of Salvation here. A gift is free, meaning it costs us nothing to receive it and indeed we could not merit it without His precious Gift. Jesus connects for us here the act He is about to perform as a gift for ALL of us. More truth.

“All you gave him”(to as many in your version) Here we must acknowledge as Jesus does for our edification, the infinite Knowledge, Will and Power of God. He knows all, knew our whole life and us before we were “knit” in the womb. We have freewill, yet He knows every choice we will make in our life. In a very real sense, this goes beyond our finite ability to think or totally comprehend. Everything that is, all that happens is pre-ordained by God. If anything can be said to “not be His Will” then it would not happen, it will not “be”. While He clearly wants us all to love Him, He knows many will choose not to. It is in light of our properly understanding of Who God is and what Divine means, that “all you(the Father) gave Him (Jesus,the Son)” is properly understood. So for us it becomes those that will be saved are "given to Him" by the Father, in that it was God's Plan that redemption for us all be made possible. And so it is that "all that will be saved" are "given to Christ by God. Calvin did not invent predestenation. He was Catholic first. He just put a very odd twist on it. So "given to Him". Another Truth.

“this is eternal life that they should know You,” Wow, here we might differ a little. We would say this is a very deep and profound statement. Eternal life again is clearly referring to salvation. “To know God” could and has been summed up in many ways. How do we know God? Be like Jesus! Recently heard one that stuck with me, ‘be holy’. And we can only do that through our using the Gifts of the Holy Spirit which is a Grace given to us from God in our Confirmation. (Gifts, something else that can be lost due to sin btw) Summed up the Gifts number seven, derived from the prediction in Isaiah (11:1-3), which speaks, of the qualities of the Messiah. Very reasonably that the Messiah, 100%man like us while also 100% Divine, would “know God” and also reasonable that we would want to have these traits to “know God” (be holy) like our example Jesus was Holy. Without defining them, in a progressive building order for us, those Gifts would be to have a spirit of Wonder and Awe of God, spirit of Respect of God (reverence), spirit of Knowledge of God, spirit of Courage, a spirit of right judgment, a spirit of understanding, and a spirit of wisdom. So clearly then if we are not holy in this life, we cannot “know God” and therefore would not have salvation “eternal life”.

“the only true God” more Truth to which none here hopefully disagree.

“and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.” It is doubtful that Jesus actually said this part since he never addressed himself that way, it was probably added later. However, it is absolutely a Truth that God, the Father out of Love sent God, the Son, Jesus Christ to become man, die on the Cross, making redemption possible for us all and He is RISEN! He established an earthly and Heavenly Kingdom, ascended to the Heaven throne of that Kingdom and in a very fiery manifest way, sent God, the Holy Spirit to help guide us here.

genez said:

You still want to stick to what you handed me?

If you do. I will not touch it. Even with thick gloves on. For death would absolutely separate the unbeliever from the way you want us to believe it to be. You can not possibly be right. That is, if one does not see the Lake of Fire as being God's love. Do you?

Enjoying the scenery....... Grace and peace, GeneZ

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Yes, I will stick to what the Church tells me until my time here is done. And if that was properly understood by me and relayed and PROPERLY understood by you, I stick to that too! Somehow I doubt from your comments that you understood.
BTW yes, I believe God loves even Hitler. However, if I make it to Heaven I would be very surprised to see Hitler there based on what we know of his life and the magnitude of the horror he is responsible for.
If I accept any of it, am also bound to believe that when it says all things are possible with God and that we are not to judge no man, that Hilter being there could not be excluded. Would still say it seems more likely from what we know that he would roast for all eternity in the worst possible way. For all we know a Priest was in that bunker with him and he confessed. Admittedly, God forgive me, a part of wishes only the worst on that man, but we are not called for that. Who knows but God. Even my own salvation hangs in a balance, possibly until my last breath. Best I focus on that and my family first and then those I might help along the way.

I see your point, and although you obviously have a better understanding of the Bible, I disagree. I have read notes from scholars on most of the verses you cited, none of them came to your exact conclusion. Furthermore, my intuitive understanding of God has almost always coincided with the scriptural understanding of God, yet this does not... any god that forces a person to go to hell to serve as an example is clearly tyrannical. I'll research this issue further, but I think my suspicions will turn out to be correct. If not, I refuse to believe in God, I find it highly improbable that such a supreme being would behave in such a way.

DrBubbaLove said:

Yes, I will stick to what the Church tells me until my time here is done.

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Should I stick to what your church tells you?

Kind of reminds me when I used to witness to my Jewish mother. Her response?


"I will ask my rabbi to tell me if what you say is true."

After all, rabbis were here long before your church was. Maybe, she was right.


Grace and peace, GeneZ

FOMWatts<>< said:

What I am saying is that God makes EVERYTHING come back to Himself in the form of glory. I am saying that though God is not a liar, He allows the father of lies to spread his lies, but He purposes the results of those lies that are spread to the glory of Himself.

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He allows Satan to lie. Sure. To weed out believers who do not have a steadfast heart after God, and to test those who do.

"In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it.
No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval." 1 Cor 11:18-19 niv

God allows for lies to go forth (false doctrines) so that those who have God's approval can be revealed.

Angels watch in on this. They see God's system as justified when there will always be those who see through the lies. And, those who don't because of a wrong mental attitude towards God and life. To the angels, its a replay of the fall of the angels and the conflicts that followed.

God could prevent every lie from being uttered. But, if he did, men's heart before God could not be revealed for what he is.

Deuteronomy 8:2
"Remember how the LORD your God led you all the way in the desert these forty years, to humble you and to test you in order to know what was in your heart, whether or not you would keep his commands."

Proverbs 17:3
"The crucible for silver and the furnace for gold, but the LORD tests the heart."

1 Thessalonians 2:4
"On the contrary, we speak as men approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel. We are not trying to please men but God, who tests our hearts."

That is why everyone here can not agree on what the truth is. For, God is testing our hearts by allowing the false, as well as truth, to be presented to all.

In Christ, GeneZ

FOMWATTS
....so your answer is YES, God does deliberately send people to hell.

well man, thats just heartless.
...yes God uses his wisdom to counfound the wise and destroy the uncanny.



genez

God loves the unbeliever no more than God loves satan?
i was once an unbeliever, and when a person says " do this and ill love you... but if not i dont" thats not love at all man. the bible says when we were yet sinners Christ died for us, that means he loved us when we were yet sinners. though im not going to make this an argument over symantics.

your whole rebuttal based on the nature of hitler hangs completely on the string that God doesnt love people who end up in hell and that God doesnt love hitler. david said that even if he made his bed in hell, then God is there too.

God does love people even if they go to hell, the bible says God does not delight in the destruction of the wicked, he doesnt like it... he would rather they not go to hell, because he loves them. he doesnt just put people there. becuase he loves us even when were sinners. all through the old testament we read of Gods words and interactions toward heathen isrealites.... he did deal with them, but he said things like "why are you doing this? just come back to me. i would restore you and bless you if youd just come back. why have you forsaken me?"
God was not unloving toward his sinful people... he did deal with them harshly... but the bible says God chatises "THOSE HE LOVES".

the bible says in 2 tim he died as a ransom for all sins and all sinners and would that all come to a saving knowledge of the truth. he loves us. and this applies to those who dont ever do any of that too. he died for those sins that are never repented of, becuase he loves those people too.

no the lake of fire is not a picture of Gods love, but it doesnt mean God doesnt love people who go there... he died and did all he could to keep people from ever having to go. his love is the cross that paved the way to freeing people from hell... and he did this for everyone, even those who never walk it.
God loves everyone. and he doesnt want anyone in hell.



sawdust

you base your beliefes on a few ideas...

1. that because salvation is supernatural the natural people cannot adjust it.

i do alot of things that affect the supernatural... i pray, i worship, i made a decision to follow Jesus... and all those effect the supernatural. the supernatural is very very tangible and maleable, even for natural beings.
it was my actions that made the supernatural in my life what it is... then why cant my actions effect it again?

2. i am a citizen of heavon.

well, the bible does speak of creatures casting off there citizenship.
the bible says in jude verse 6 that angels left there estates and ended up in damnation.
i know we arent angles but im just trying to follow your logic.
it is possible for things to change their citizenship in God. why cant we?

3. it is finished.

yeah well that just doesnt mean what some people like to think.
it didnt mean that i didnt have to make the choice of being a christian, and it doesnt mean that my christianity is finished.
paul said that he worked to make up for what was behind in the cross.
though i am having difficulty finding that scripture. but ive read it many times and it is there.
paul said he would work, lest he recieve the grace of God in vain.
1 cor 15.10

sorry i cant find the one scripture i feel would make my point bedrock.

4. is a christian worried about sin really free?

well the bible talks about CHRISTIANS who are free from sin and who are planted in Christ and sin in their lives in roman 6. but specificly verse 17 speaks to christians and says if we yeild ourselves instruments unto sin, then it is SIN UNTO DEATH...
and hebrews 10.26 says that if after you know the truth and sin again, there is now no more sacrifice for sin in your life. and verse 29 goes on to ask what will happen to this person who trods underfoot the blood of Jesus wherewith HE WAS ONCE SANCTIFIED.

but paul told timothy to FLEE youthful lusts, he said RUN... so i run too.

but peter went on to say that i need to labour to "make my calling and election sure".

i dont believe salvation is fragile, but it can be thrown away.

genez said:

Should I stick to what your church tells you?

Kind of reminds me when I used to witness to my Jewish mother. Her response?


"I will ask my rabbi to tell me if what you say is true."

After all, rabbis were here long before your church was. Maybe, she was right.


Grace and peace, GeneZ

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No that was not my point. But now that you mention it, if we all did “follow” the Church there would be unity in all Christian faith and that would be Good.

If you can “be holy” where you are, then you are better off there than being a marginal Catholic. Essentially as a Christian, one is Catholic in that all Christians are part of the Body of Christ. Outside it, a Christian is not in "communion" with the Church and is separated from both being able to receive All the Graces administered through the Church, as well as the fullness of all the Truths revealed to man from God.


You are correct about the Jewish faith, it is older than all ours. We speak here of NT things however. Most "rabbis" only accept the OT (and depending on sect maybe only certain parts authoritatively) and they collectively have indeed been studying it longer. We would be wise to consider how they view the Old Testament, but we also know that the completion of that story, the fulfillment is in the New Testament. Neither part is complete without the other. So yes, I would think understanding the first part, would to a large degree but only to a point, be aided by knowing how the Jews view it. Am unclear what degree of unity one might find in the Jewish faith, so that may be a difficulty study. Think for that reason, many Christian theologians try to consider also what Jews of Jesus day and earlier believed.

tdcharles said:

I see your point, and although you obviously have a better understanding of the Bible, I disagree. I have read notes from scholars on most of the verses you cited, none of them came to your exact conclusion. Furthermore, my intuitive understanding of God has almost always coincided with the scriptural understanding of God, yet this does not... any god that forces a person to go to hell to serve as an example is clearly tyrannical. I'll research this issue further, but I think my suspicions will turn out to be correct. If not, I refuse to believe in God, I find it highly improbable that such a supreme being would behave in such a way.

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Wow, if the truth makes you turn from God I would say you never truly knew Him anyway, because to know Him is to love Him and the only way to turn from Him is to have never known Him. The only way to KNOW Him is to read His word and not judge Him with human wisdom and standards. To you I would say, who are you to question God? Can He not do what He wants with what He has made? Is it not His right to purpose some for great things and some for normalcy, even poverty? God does what He wants, because His purpose is His ultimate goal. More than making you or I happy, He will always bring glory to Himself. I would encourage reading more scholars on these verses because I too have read other scholars and ALL of them came to the same conclusion that I have. I do not stand alone in my thinking, there are a number of people who are slowly coming back to taking the Word of God at what it says, and we love Him anyway and BECAUSE of it. I pray that if I am in error, that scripture speak to me, possibly through one of you. That the Holy Spirit open my mind and my heart to what is truth if what I feel He has already shown me proves false. I welcome being wrong, because proving me wrong would be causing me to learn, which is what I am here for.

Could you also please list some of the scholars you have read that came to a different conclusion? I would like to read what they have to say about it. Thanks. Here are some of the ones that I have read:

John MacArthur Jr.
John Calvin
Jonathon Edwards
Walter Elwell
C.H. Spurgeon
Holman N.T. Commentary

Though all but a few of these are reformed, they all are scholars of Greek and interpreted their beliefs from the Greek translation from these and other verses. I am no scholar of Greek, but with a little time I can break down these verses on here if you like. I am not trying to persuade you so that you may turn from God, I would hate to see that happen, but I feel your comment was based on your confidence that I was wrong. I do not take offense, because that is why we are all here to portray what we understand as the Truth from scripture. I know that you do the saem and as a brother I respect you for that. However, if I ever be proven wrong and something turns out to be true about God that I find unbelievable or unfair, I will NEVER turn from God. I will struggle and serve in His name until I die. Nothing true about the God I serve will scare me away using my own judgements. Remember, God is NOT fair, if He were, we would all be in Hell.

God Be Blessed,

FOM<><

FOMW said:

I will NEVER turn from God. I will struggle and serve in His name until I die.

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By your characterization of God, you will turn from God if that is what he purposes for you though--right? You do not have any say in this?

Q

I did not make the links in this song, I got it from another post on here, so whoever made it thanks.
FOM<><


Arminian Grace

Arminian grace! How strange the sound
Salvation hinged on ME
I once was lost then turned around
Was blind then chose to see

What “grace” is it that calls for choice
Out of some good within?
The part that willed to heed God’s voice
Proved stronger than my sin

Through many ardent gospel pleas
I sat with heart of stone
But then some hidden good in me
Propelled me toward my home

When we’ve been there ten thousand years
Because of what we’ve done The verse here is Galatians 3:5
We’ve no less days to sing our praise
Than when we first begun

- Dennis Walter Cochran

Endure2 said:

FOMWATTS

....so your answer is YES, God does deliberately send people to hell.

well man, thats just heartless.
...yes God uses his wisdom to counfound the wise and destroy the uncanny.

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To whom was that addressed?

God loves the unbeliever no more than God loves satan?

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I speak of the one who remains an unbeliever forever. God offers love. But, when God is refused, God has only wrath for those who refuse to believe in Jesus Christ.

John 3:36
"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.”

You see God's wrath as being love for those who refuse to believe? And, God's love for the believer is his love for the Son who was made one with those who believe in Him. The love God has for the believer is because of who and what Jesus is. His righteousness is imputed to us. We have no righteousness of our own.

1 Corinthians 1:30
"It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God–that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption."

God loves us because of who we have become in Christ! The unbeliever (who remains an unbeliever) never receives the righteousness of Christ. God can not love what is not righteous.

Philippians 3:9
"and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ–the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith."

God can not love evil. We have no righteousness from our natural selves that he can love. Once we believe in Jesus Christ, God is then free to love us.

i was once an unbeliever, and when a person says " do this and ill love you... but if not i dont" thats not love at all man. the bible says when we were yet sinners Christ died for us, that means he loved us when we were yet sinners. though im not going to make this an argument over symantics.

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That was God offering love. He offered his love. If we reject his offer (salvation) then only the wrath of God remains on us. It does not say God then directs his wrath on us for rejecting him. It says his wrath remains.

John 3:36
"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.”

your whole rebuttal based on the nature of hitler hangs completely on the string that God doesnt love people who end up in hell and that God doesnt love hitler. david said that even if he made his bed in hell, then God is there too.

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"If I ascend up into heaven, You are there; if I make my bed in Sheol (the place of the dead), behold, You are there." Psalm 139:8 (Amplified Bible)

Difference between David and Hitler, was that David was a believer. David was speaking figuratively, not literally. He was showing how nothing can separate the believer from the love of God. Not even death.

Hell is not used in the original language. Hell, was a KJV mistranslation. Under the earth there was a waiting place for all OT saints. One which was not "Torments." It was a place where believers waited for their redemption, which finally came when Jesus went to the Cross. If you read Luke 16:22-24, you will see that in Sheol there existed at least two different places. One for the believer, and one for the unbeliever. It does not say that David went to Hell. That is a KJV translation problem.

God does love people even if they go to hell, the bible says God does not delight in the destruction of the wicked, he doesnt like it... he would rather they not go to hell, because he loves them.

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He does not love them. He loves what he could have made them to become if they only believed. To say God loves those whom are objects of his wrath is to say God is double minded. He can not love evil.

"But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed." Romans 2:5

he doesnt just put people there. becuase he loves us even when were sinners.

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"But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." Romans 5:8 niv

It does not say that he loved us. It says that he demonstrated his love. He displayed his love. He offered his love to us. His love was on display. He was revealing the love he can have for us as soon as we are made free to be objects of his love. That is, once we are seen as made to be "in Christ."

God sees who will believe. He also sees who will refuse. God is not confused and all emotional over this issue. As far as God is concerned he knows the beginning from the end. God does not waiver in his feeling towards a man. He already knows all there is to know about him. He may offer his love to tjose who refuse to believe many times in their lifetime. But, he is only offering his love. They are not something (in themselves) that he is free to love for what they are.

For those he knows will believe, he draws in his love. Since he can already see us as saved and in Heaven, he is free to have a love for us because he knows we will believe. But, God does not love those who are stubborn and refuse to repent of their unbelief. That would be like George Bush inviting Osama bin Laden to go on a fishing trip with him.

all through the old testament we read of Gods words and interactions toward heathen isrealites.... he did deal with them, but he said things like "why are you doing this? just come back to me. i would restore you and bless you if youd just come back. why have you forsaken me?"

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That is because they were already his. Like a rebellious teenager who parents weep over when their child does bad things and follows the crowd.

God was not unloving toward his sinful people... he did deal with them harshly... but the bible says God chatises "THOSE HE LOVES".

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Yup! But he does not chastise those who he knows will not believe in Him.

"Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons." Hebrews 12:7-8 niv

I can not print what the KJV says. Because the 'bad word' filter will not allow for it to appear. But, to give you a hint. It says that those whom are not the Father's. These are "bast_rd's. Without a father.

the bible says in 2 tim he died as a ransom for all sins and all sinners and would that all come to a saving knowledge of the truth. he loves us. and this applies to those who dont ever do any of that too. he died for those sins that are never repented of, becuase he loves those people too.

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Its in love that God desires all to believe. For he desires all to know him. But, evil refuses. He hates evil.

"Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” Ro 9:13

no the lake of fire is not a picture of Gods love, but it doesnt mean God doesnt love people who go there...

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We will find Esau in the Lake of Fire. Did God say he loves Esau?

"Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

he died and did all he could to keep people from ever having to go. his love is the cross that paved the way to freeing people from hell... and he did this for everyone, even those who never walk it.
God loves everyone. and he doesnt want anyone in hell.

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God demonstrated his love for everyone on the Cross. He showed the world who and what he is, not what he feels towards those whom he knows will reject and hate him forever. God was leaving all who refuse to repent to be without excuse by his demonstration of love. If they would only turn to him? All would be forgiven. But, they refuse. That is God's love. Turn to him and all is forgiven. He does not hold a grudge. He only will give love.

Grace and peace, GeneZ