Once Saved Always Saved Discussion

Van,

For example, my position is that Romans 14:22 has a wider application than just eating food sacrificed to idols. I am saying it describes our faith or set of beliefs and how we accept them - with our conviction - yes these things are true. Notice the ending clause, whatever is not of faith is sin. Again, this points to a wide application.

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The text is very specific. It is an example of the larger issue. The larger issue is what I have been describing to you all along. We can lose our faith just by sinning. If one does nor repent, we lose faith. If we persist in not seeking repentance, we have no faith. Faith does not produce fruit or works, but the other way around. Works shows faith, produces more faith when they are done IN Christ, thus not sin.
This is the whole error of OSAS. Faith and works are together. They are never apart. If they are, then it is sin and faith is dead. We are not IN Christ. This is why repentance, a constant repentance, daily, as Jesus taught his disciples to pray. The Lord's prayer is a daily prayer.
We need to stay reconciled to God. We are not saved by faith alone or only faith but through faith.

We are saved by faith alone, sojo, but such faith is never alone. The faith that saves will produce works, but those works count for nothing and contribute nothing to our justification. To say otherwise is to deny the sufficiency of Christ's substitutionary atonement.

I am not going to state my opinion, but I have a few questions that go a little farther than "once saved, always saved."

If we are once saved, always saved...

and a certain man truly accepts Christ, then before he dies decides he wants to reject God and worship Satan and go to Hell. Can he do this? God gave us all free will. Can he freely denounce God or is he forced to go to heaven?

If we are once saved, always saved...

then why is Satan and his evil around to tempt us? Why does Satan try to make us sin? If we are guaranteed to be with Christ, then why does the devil try? And in my opinion, he tries harder on Christians.

lummoxcooties said:

If we are once saved, always saved...and a certain man truly accepts Christ, then before he dies decides he wants to reject God and worship Satan and go to Hell. Can he do this? God gave us all free will. Can he freely denounce God or is he forced to go to heaven?

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Man will never go to heaven against his will. Nor will a man ever go to hell against his will.

Can a man do this? From a hypothetical standpoint, sure. Man possesses the natural ability to choose according to his strongest desire (the essense of free will). But those who are truly His have an overarching desire for Christ which God promises in His Word to preserve and secure.

If we are once saved, always saved...then why is Satan and his evil around to tempt us? Why does Satan try to make us sin? If we are guaranteed to be with Christ, then why does the devil try? And in my opinion, he tries harder on Christians.

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Satan opposes God in every way he can. He takes pleasure in the sins of men, especially the sins of believers because it serves his purpose in opposing God. Satan does not tempt us because it makes rational sense (given the fact that his fate is sure). He does so because he desires only evil and seeks to oppose God to the utmost of his ability.

I am not going to state my opinion, but I have a few questions that go a little farther than "once saved, always saved."

If we are once saved, always saved...

and a certain man truly accepts Christ, then before he dies decides he wants to reject God and worship Satan and go to Hell. Can he do this? God gave us all free will. Can he freely denounce God or is he forced to go to heaven?

If we are once saved, always saved...

then why is Satan and his evil around to tempt us? Why does Satan try to make us sin? If we are guaranteed to be with Christ, then why does the devil try? And in my opinion, he tries harder on Christians.

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An excellent question. I do not believe satan "prowls around seeking whom he can STEAL REWARDS/CROWNS"; rather, he seeks "whom he may DEVOUR." 1Pet5:8

Calvinists say "God never breaks man's will" --- but the reality is they see "WILL" as flowing from (invariably, irresistibly) the "monergistically-imposed-regeneration".

IOW, those God chooses, are regenerated --- those regenerated WILL believe/persevere. Those whom He has NOT chosen, who are NOT regenerated, will NOT believe.

Perseverance being the "indicator of election" (the elect show their election BY perseverance, the unelect BY falling). This conflicts the warning to "make certain of your calling and election ...that the gates of Heaven be abundantly provided" in 2Pet1:5-11 (see the "bad example" in vs9, who "lacks the prescribed qualities and has forgotten purification from former sins" --- this is the reason WHY he says "therefore BE diligent...")

Calvinists also see verses like Lk8:13 & 15 as "indicating they followed how they were TILLED (their falling was BECAUSE they were rocky, the others' holding-fast-bearing-fruit-with-perseverance was BECAUSE they were good-soil)". But look at Heb6:7-8 --- seems clear that both were tilled the SAME, and the FRUIT determined whether they were "blessed" of "cursed".

frumanchu,

We are saved by faith alone, sojo, but such faith is never alone. The faith that saves will produce works, but those works count for nothing and contribute nothing to our justification. To say otherwise is to deny the sufficiency of Christ's substitutionary atonement.

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First, they have nothing to do with justification, let alone contribute to it. It also has nothing to do with the atonement. It has nothing to do directly with the redemptive work of Christ. You have the wrong works in mind.

It has all to do with man's response to that work of Christ on the Cross. Those "works of righteousness", is all that will ever count at the judgement. We will be held accountable for what we have done in the faith or out of faith. See James 2:14, 24,

See Romans 2:5-8
Please note that God is "giving" something to people. They are not "earning" it. Note that they must PERSIST in doing good works, and then God will GIVE them eternal life
Read Titus 3:4-8
But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. This is a trustworthy saying. And I want you to stress these things, so that those who have trusted in God may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good.
James 2:22, James believes that faith is matured by works, and the works are not but an outpouring of mature faith,, for he writes: "And faith was matured from the works."
This is what is critical - Works work to perfect faith, and not the other way around, and we are given sufficient grace to work these works that mature our faith, if we are willing to do so...
Christians are to be admonished and urged to apply themselves to "good works". We are warned that disobedience leads to death. Lets look at Galatians 6:7-10
7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. 9 And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all, especially
Now note: If you sow to the flesh, you will DIE!!! BUT you must SOW to the Spirit to get everlasting life. Note that sowing is defined as DOING GOOD in verse 9. You are not justified by faith alone. You must sow to the Spirit in order to reap everlasting life. If you do not, you are sowing to the flesh, and will reap corruption.
There is no idea here that you exercise this thing called "true faith", and then you are declared not guilty and made ready for heaven, and then good works just sort of happen as evidence of faith, and because we are so grateful to God for saving us.

Ben johnson said:

An excellent question. I do not believe satan "prowls around seeking whom he can STEAL REWARDS/CROWNS"; rather, he seeks "whom he may DEVOUR." 1Pet5:8

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And apparently God is not ABLE to do anything about it?

Calvinists say "God never breaks man's will" --- but the reality is they see "WILL" as flowing from (invariably, irresistibly) the "monergistically-imposed-regeneration".

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The will operates according to desire. Unless and until the desire for God is monergistically, graciously bestowed upon the heart of man, he will not believe because he does not want to.

IOW, those God chooses, are regenerated --- those regenerated WILL believe/persevere. Those whom He has NOT chosen, who are NOT regenerated, will NOT believe.

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You're starting to catch on.

Perseverance being the "indicator of election" (the elect show their election BY perseverance, the unelect BY falling).

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Perseverance is not THE indicator of election according to Calvinism, Ben, and you have been told that numerous times over. Why do you persist in peddling this falsehood?

Calvinists also see verses like Lk8:13 & 15 as "indicating they followed how they were TILLED (their falling was BECAUSE they were rocky, the others' holding-fast-bearing-fruit-with-perseverance was BECAUSE they were good-soil)".

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No, Ben johnson claims Calvinists believe this. It is one of his tallest strawmen which he enjoys knocking down and touting victory over. But as has been pointed out to him repeatedly, he goes well beyond the intended meaning of the parable, choosing instead to eisegesize and force his own theological precepts upon the text. I have checked with several commentaries, by both Reformed commentators (Gill, Henry, Sproul) and decidedly non-Reformed (Coffman, MacDonald, Clarke) commentators, and there is agreement among all of them. They all see the lack of endurance through temptation to be an indication of a less-than-genuine faith.

Fru said:

And apparently God is not ABLE to do anything about it?

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He is "ABLE to keep us..." (Jd24) --- but we are to "build ourselves in faith, keep OURSELVES in His love". (Jd21)

Just the same way that He PROVIDES a means to escape temptation, but does not compell us to take it (1Cor10:13); verse 12 seems to speak of "truly falling".

Remember how the "rocky soil" fell to temptation?

The will operates according to desire. Unless and until the desire for God is monergistically, graciously bestowed upon the heart of man, he will not believe because he does not want to.

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So I "got it right", and did not "misrepresent Calvinism"?

You're starting to catch on.

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Problem is that Scripture places belief BEFORE (and causal to) regeneration...

Perseverance is not THE indicator of election according to Calvinism, Ben, and you have been told that numerous times over. Why do you persist in peddling this falsehood?

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All right, "one" indicator. Do you deny that you believe "the elect WILL persevere, the unelect will NOT persevere --- thus, those who persevere WERE ELECT"?

No, Ben johnson claims Calvinists believe this. It is one of his tallest strawmen which he enjoys knocking down and touting victory over. But as has been pointed out to him repeatedly, he goes well beyond the intended meaning of the parable, choosing instead to eisegesize and force his own theological precepts upon the text. I have checked with several commentaries, by both Reformed commentators (Gill, Henry, Sproul) and decidedly non-Reformed (Coffman, MacDonald, Clarke) commentators, and there is agreement among all of them. They all see the lack of endurance through temptation to be an indication of a less-than-genuine faith.

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Do you acknowledge the connection between the parable, and Heb6:7-8?

sojourner said:

There is no idea here that you exercise this thing called "true faith", and then you are declared not guilty and made ready for heaven, and then good works just sort of happen as evidence of faith, and because we are so grateful to God for saving us.

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Nowhere have I put forth antinomianism in any way, shape or form. But our justification before God is by faith, and faith alone. Our works of righteousness are the fruit of that faith produced in the life of the believer.

My friend, you are adding to the Gospel.

Ben johnson said:

All right, "one" indicator. Do you deny that you believe "the elect WILL persevere, the unelect will NOT persevere --- thus, those who persevere WERE ELECT"?

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Yes. And if you would simply present it as such I wouldn't have to repeatedly point this out to you. But that kinda defeats the purpose of you bringing it up, doesn't it?

Do you acknowledge the connection between the parable, and Heb6:7-8?

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There is a similar metaphor employed. But to force the "condition of the soil" in Heb 6 back on the parable in Luke 8 doesn't change the fact that your concern with the "condition of the soil" ISN'T THE CALVINIST ARGUMENT. I've not once ever appealed to such a thing, and as I've pointed out you (and anyone else who argues along those lines) are going beyond the intended purpose of the parable/metaphor in making an issue of it.

Luke 8 simply shows how the word will be received from the viewpoint of him who sows it (in this case, the disciples). Calvinist and non-Calvinist alike reject your use of Luke 8:13 as a prooftext.

Heb 6 simply shows that those who receive the Word (rain) and produce fruit (faith) receive blessing, and those who produce thorns (unbelief) are cursed. It doesn't speak at all to the issue of who produces which, or why.

Van,

Sojourner, thanks for answering my questions. You believe a person spiritually baptized into Christ and indwelt such that they are in Christ and Christ is in them, is not saved.

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That is correct, not finitely saved. He is being saved, working with God to inherit the promise.

There are three facets to salvation, positional sanctification where a believer is baptized into Christ and born again. Process sanctification where a born again believer is conformed to the image of Christ. And utimate sanctification when we die or Christ comes where we are present with the Lord. To point to the last and say the other two do not represent salvation is not biblical.

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There are not positional salvation in any Bible I am familiar with. No guarantees. No false hope. Your process sanctification is precisely what salvation consists. It is the journey. At this point so far you have not shown that it is the Gospel once given. To say it is biblical, every false teaching is biblical.

For example, Ephesians 2:8 says "For by grace you have been saved..."

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Yes, and so has every other soul that ever lived. This is in reference to the redemptive work of Christ. He redeemed mankind, in fact, He redeemed the universe. All men have been freed from the bondage of death and sin. You got that part right. Just the wrong context again.

The ploy of quoting a raft of verses and asserting they all show a point of view is without merit. As I have done several times, I can go through them and demonstrate to my satisfaction that do not support the asserted point. Which I did with several verses. (If you provide the post number where you listed the 20 verses) I will provide a more detailed response.)

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It has merit if it is the Gospel once given. This has been the view of Christians since the beginning. You can read any Church father in any century and find them repeating the same understanding. It has not changed. That must be the work of the Holy Spirit. He is preserving His Gospel, His Truth. He did not leave it for man to try to reinvent the wheel, so to speak.
As far as showing or demonstrating to your satisfaction that the verses do not support the asserted point, is just your opinion so far. Show one early Church Father that even implied any concept close to OSAS. As I mentioned above all false teachings come from the Bible. If one can show that it has been believed from the beginning, that it is the same Gospel given once, for all, to all ( See Jude 3 ) one can know that it is True.

Sojourner, I value my opinion based on my own prayerful study of scripture. The context of Ephesians 2:8 is straightforward. Saved is given in the past tense, therefore positional sanctification, being placed in Christ, occurs during our lifetime and initiates the process period that you accepted. My view on this issue is shared by many folks who are biblical scholars. Those indwelt are sealed with a pledge to an inheritance of eternal life and God keeps His promises.

This is my post in General Theology, and I'm just posting it here to jump in on you alls discussion, hello Ben Johnson, nice to be debating with you again...perhaps one day we will be on the same side.

Evidence from scripture that GOD, who is the author and distributor of faith and salvation, perserveres or CARRIES His saints to the end...

Philippians 1:
4In all my prayers for all of you, I always pray with joy 5because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now, 6being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

John 10:
28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[d]; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

John 17:
11I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name–the name you gave me–so that they may be one as we are one.

1 Peter:
3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade–kept in heaven for you, 5who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

How do we think that we are able to sustain after we have recieved salvation? Why do we think God would give us salvationand then leave us to our own power, when we were loved while we were still powerless??? We have no power, and THAT is the ENTIRE reason Christ died, to save that which was powerless. So when scripture tells us that God will sustain through faith....WHO GIVES FAITH? God does, and He sustains us...So yes, sure we have to have faith and remain in it, but God is a full service God and He provides us with it all...

God Be Blessed,

FOMWatts<><

frumanchu,

Nowhere have I put forth antinomianism in any way, shape or form. But our justification before God is by faith, and faith alone. Our works of righteousness are the fruit of that faith produced in the life of the believer.
My friend, you are adding to the Gospel.

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I didn't know that specifically meant antinomianism. You must have a guilty conscience. That is a standard belief by most OSAS, in fact it is the standard act of justification, the so-called satisfaction theory. They all also deny antinomianism. So possibly you have a different understanding of what OSAS is from most, which would not be unusual.
I might add that others deny it because they state the Bible says we should not sin. But yet within the OSAS view, sin does not separate one from God. It simply lessens the rewards. But that simply creates a very huge contradiction which they are unable to handle.

Our justification is by faith. But that is where scripture stops. It seems you are adding and subtracting. You add "alone" and subtract it from James 2:24 where it is actually a negative.
So, what Bible are you using?

sojourner said:

frumanchu,

But yet within the OSAS view, sin does not separate one from God. It simply lessens the rewards. But that simply creates a very huge contradiction which they are unable to handle.

Our justification is by faith. But that is where scripture stops. It seems you are adding and subtracting. You add "alone" and subtract it from James 2:24 where it is actually a negative.
So, what Bible are you using?

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Actually, in OSAS, sin DOES seperate people from God. The difference between the two doctrines is that OSAS states that Christ's death on the cross was effectual and that the scripture that says that Christ died to sin ONCE for ALL is truth. We say that when we acknowledge our salvation through the faith, which God instills in us by His soveriegn choice, He no longer sees the sin in us (though it still occurs as long as we battle in this flesh), but He sees us as He created us, Holy and blameless in His sight, created for glory before the foundation of the earth was laid.

FOM<><

Van,

Sojourner, I value my opinion based on my own prayerful study of scripture. The context of Ephesians 2:8 is straightforward. Saved is given in the past tense, therefore positional sanctification, being placed in Christ, occurs during our lifetime and initiates the process period that you accepted. My view on this issue is shared by many folks who are biblical scholars. Those indwelt are sealed with a pledge to an inheritance of eternal life and God keeps His promises.

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Yes, it is clearly in the past tense. Past, because Christ had completed His work of the Cross 2000 years ago. It is complete. However, the work of Christ was universal. It saved every single individual in the world that every lived. I believe that I pointed that out before in that Christ is the second Adam. If Adam sinned, and all mankind died, and Christ overcame the judgement of Adam, death, to bring life to all mankind, then we have been saved by Grace. Nothing man did and can do to bring life back to us. That is all Christ. In fact, Christ's work is all objective.
Christ saved (past tense) all mankind from death and sin. This was accomplished through the Incarnation and His death and resurrection. He did not so man could once again choose, exercise his free will to believe or not to believe. To be in Union with God.
This text has nothing to do with positional or sanctification of any kind. It surely does not mean being placed in Christ, then all men would be saved individually or personally which puts you into the universalist camp.

There are two 'saves' and two 'salvations' One is universal, redemption, the other is particular, personal or individual. One is Christ's work on the Cross, the other is man's response to that work which is a cooperative work of personal salvation.

Those indwelt are sealed with a pledge to an inheritance of eternal life and God keeps His promises

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Do you really understand just what pledge and pledge in an inheritance actually means? I mean outside of scripture.

Here is an example. Let us assume that your father is going to give you the family business when he dies. He does this by pledging that you will inherit the business by a will. A testament. He might also put a condition upon it saying that you will recieve the business only if you work with Him until he dies.
First, does this mean you are then currently the owner. You have immediately inherited the business? If you say yes, you have the OSAS view. If no, then you have the Gospel.
Now, if you get a better offer and go elsewhere does it mean you will still get the family business? If your answer is yes, you have OSAS. If your answer is no, you have gospel Truth.

Fomwatts,

Actually, in OSAS, sin DOES seperate people from God. The difference between the two doctrines is that OSAS states that Christ's death on the cross was effectual and that the scripture that says that Christ died to sin ONCE for ALL is truth. We say that when we acknowledge our salvation through the faith, which God instills in us by His soveriegn choice, He no longer sees the sin in us (though it still occurs as long as we battle in this flesh), but He sees us as He created us, Holy and blameless in His sight, created for glory before the foundation of the earth was laid.

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Ok, but not putting words or suggestions here on what you mean, could you state just what you do to acknowledge salvation through faith?

FOMWatts<>< said:

Actually, in OSAS, sin DOES seperate people from God. The difference between the two doctrines is that OSAS states that Christ's death on the cross was effectual and that the scripture that says that Christ died to sin ONCE for ALL is truth. We say that when we acknowledge our salvation through the faith, which God instills in us by His soveriegn choice, He no longer sees the sin in us (though it still occurs as long as we battle in this flesh), but He sees us as He created us, Holy and blameless in His sight, created for glory before the foundation of the earth was laid.

FOM<><

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Say what?? Even calvinists won't go for that far. We acknowledge our salvation through faith??? Holy cow!! Talk about forcing theology on the text. The text says we are saved by grace through faith. The bible nowhere says anything about acknowledging salvation through faith. Your theology needs to bend toward scripture.

Folks, I think we are playing the name game. Redefining what salvation is. Does the Bible say Christ saved all men? It does indicate God's acceptance of His sacrifice reconciled all men. But since we are ministers of Reconciliation, and Paul speaks of receiving the reconciliation, I think to be saved is to receive the reconciliation. And this is not univeral, but only happens to those "in Christ."

Ephesians 2:5 says we, folks that are alive and have not yet died and before the second coming of Jesus, who were dead in their transgressions were made alive, together with Christ (by grace you have been saved.) This being made alive and being brought together with Christ occurs when we are spiritually baptized into Christ during our lifetime. This initiates the process sanctification phase of salvation. The removal of the body of sin, the circumcision done without hands, occurs in Christ, by the grace of God, because God accepted the propitiation of Christ, and therefore is willing to turn aside His wrath and "be merciful."

And further, I do not see anything so terribly wrong with indicating that we acknowledge our salvation, when we accept the truth of the gospel which is the power of God unto salvation. It is like acknowledging that our salvation is in Christ alone, He is our Savior.

sojourner said:

I didn't know that specifically meant antinomianism. You must have a guilty conscience. That is a standard belief by most OSAS, in fact it is the standard act of justification, the so-called satisfaction theory. They all also deny antinomianism. So possibly you have a different understanding of what OSAS is from most, which would not be unusual.

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Sojo, you are making works a requirement for salvation. I am disagreeing with you. I am also making it clear that I am not advocating antinomianism (against keeping the Law). I'm not saying one can have true saving faith and not have any good works attending to it. Saying that I have a "guilty conscience" is nothing more than an ad hom attack in place of a substantive argument. And to go further you merely commit a logical fallacy in grouping me in with the antinomian OSAS proponents:

Premise 1: Many antinomians deny being antinomian
Premise 2: Frumanchu denies being antinomian
Conclusion: Frumanchu is antinomian

My view is the Reformed view of perseverance, NOT the contemporary antinomian OSAS view whose refrain is:

Free from the law, o blessed condition.
I can sin all I want and still have remission!

Our justification is by faith. But that is where scripture stops. It seems you are adding and subtracting. You add "alone" and subtract it from James 2:24 where it is actually a negative.

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Ahh, yes. The legalist's appeal to James 2:24.

And what of Gal 2:16? Or Paul's words regarding Abraham?

Paul and James use the word "justify" in two different senses. Paul refers to the legal declaration God grants to us by faith on account of the imputed righteousness of Christ. James uses the word "justify" meaning "to show forth." Abraham was justified (declared righteous) by his faith (Rom 4). Abraham "justified" his faith in God by obeying God's command to sacrifice his son (James 2:20-24). The faith by which Abraham was counted as righteous was justified in the obedience. Paul and James speak from opposing sides of the same event: Paul from God's side, and James from man's side.

So, what Bible are you using?

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The WHOLE one.