Can a Person Lose Salvation?

Instead we end up trusting our "gut feelings" or "traditions of men" etc

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These Traditions were handed down from the Apostles by and through the Holy spirit unless you believe that the Holy spirit abandoned the Apostles immediatley following Pentecost.

Sometimes it is a test but if we fail the test then what? We are disciplined accordingly. But we never need fear the testing for we are always given the answers beforehand.

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Are you saying we have free will to choose God before our conversion yet after our conversion our free will is done away with (gone), and we are made to be puppets with no choice to remain in or leave the body of Christ?


Q

I am going to post what I posted in a similar thread about a week ago. KEEP IN MIND, THIS INFORMATION COMES FROM PROTESTANT WEB SITES!!


http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/cat1c.htm
http://www.bibleprophesy.org/alwayssaved.htm
http://www.gospeljohn.com/osas.htm

These are protestant web sites that refute the absolutely unbiblical man made doctrine of "OSAS." So once again protestants disagree with each other. This is a problem in itself, they all think that there doctrine is correct based on their sola scriptura interpretation and the fact the Holy Spirit has guided them to the truth, which if seriously thought about makes no sence what so ever. But the unbiblical teaching of sola scriptura is for another thread. The following are quotes from one of the non-Catholic web sites above. All the following are only excerpts from the web site
http://www.bibleprophesy.org/alwayssaved.htm. There is so much more there.

"Confessing Jesus or Denying the Lord Jesus Christ is the "saved / not saved" main issue. It is something THAT WE DO, based on our beliefs. People who argue for OSAS will often say, "There's nothing you can DO to become saved, or it will be works. Therefore, there is nothing you can DO to become unsaved, you can't GAIN or LOSE salvation based on what you do." Well, the first premise is wrong, because to be saved, one has to DO quite a lot; first be willing to hear the message, second, believe it in faith, third, repent of your sins, and fourth, confess that you believe God rose Jesus from the dead, and fifth, continue in the faith. And the act a person takes that leads to salvation is the opposite act one takes as a result of falling away from the faith. Confession or Denial of Jesus!"

"Given all of the ways to fall away from the faith, the Bible tells us to examine ourselves, and work out our salvation with fear. Sometimes religious people who may believe OSAS become very offended if you preach to them anything that might question their salvation. They say, "How dare you!". Well, I dare because scripture commands us to question our salvation.

2 Cor 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves.

Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 1 Peter 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] thatbeareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.

James 1:13-16
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.

1 Timothy 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.


[size=+2]The need to CONTINUE & ENDURE[/size]

Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Acts 14:21,22
21 And when they had preached the gospel to that city, and had taught many, they returned again to Lystra, and to Iconium, and Antioch,
22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God. 1 Timothy 4:
15 Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all.
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee

[size=+2]Paul Preached He, Himself, might not be saved![/size]

1 Corinthians 9:24-27
24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. Philippians 3
8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Six words that KILL OSAS. "I go, sir: and went not" vs. "he repented, and went"

There is a story of a man who makes a verbal declaration of obedience, but ends up disobeying.

Matt 21:
28 But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.
29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.
30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not.
31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you. Thus, a single one-time declaration of obdeince does not guarantee salvation!


If a person falls away from his rightousness then he shall die

Hebrews 6
1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come *1,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises"

Remember, all these quotes I got from a non-Catholic web site (http://www.bibleprophesy.org/alwayssaved.htm) Also included at the end of the page is all the quotes used by OSAS believers use to support their doctrine. But as pointed out, NONE of them refute in any way the verse after verse after verse after verse in scripture that talks about how one can indeed lose their salvation.

I posted the following also in the other similar thread that no one answered. So here it is again.

BTW, as I stated in the post you are referring to is from a PROTESTANT web site. The three links I provided and the information I quoted in my post was ALL information coming from a PROTESTANT web site. Now you certainly are not saying that these protestants are wrong in their interpretation are you? After all it is your own doctrine of sola scriptura that says people can interpret scripture for themselves. Hey, scripture itelf is the "sole authority" of Christian faith correct? Then how does your interpretation have more authority than the interpretation of the many denominations of protestantism that DO NOT support OSAS? The fact is that you do not have an answer to this, you cannot tell me why your interpretation is the correct interpretation and other protestants interpretations of OSAS are incorrect other than by giving me more bible verses that "supposedly" support your claim. Sorry, that won't cut it because then you are denouncing your whole unbiblical doctrine of sola scriptura

The fact that people believe in this false man-made doctrine is mind boggling to me. Why if one can never lose their salvation no matter what they do does scripture talk about the avoidance of sin so much? If you cannot lose your salvation why the need for this talk? Since sin will not cause a saved person from losing that salvation then the avoidance of sin is unimportant.

DrBubbaLove said:

And one of mine as well. See we believe almost everything you say here. The only difference is in the timing of when one is "given" salvation. Believe you would say it is or can be given in this life. We say it is given after a judgement of this life, which cannot be made until this RACE, this journey is over.

Because we are all still sinners, all equal in the eyes of God, none of us worthy to return to Him unholy and we were all made with a freewill. That means no matter how good or holy our prior life has been, we always have the ability to turn away from God.

He wants us to win, but He does not make us win. He wants us to choose to LOVE HIM. He wants us to STAND and remain STANDING, RUN and FINISH the RACE. You are not standing if you fall, you must stand up again. You cannot finish the race if you quit because you decide you already won. If you fall or have to stop in a race, you must get up and start running again to finish.

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I understand what you are saying but I do not believe it.

If it were not for the Lord Jesus Christ I would not even have legs upon which to stand let alone walk or run. I can do nothing of myself, I have nothing of myself, I am nothing of myself. It is no longer I that live but Christ that lives in me. This is how I know I am saved because the tomb is empty. Jesus Christ is risen and because He lives, I also live.

"It is by grace you have been saved through faith; and even this (faith) is a gift from God that no man should boast." Eph2:8

I really have no idea what it is you think you can do to win this race. I assure you I have not quit because I have decided I have won. But rather it is a very much opposing position. I have won because Christ has won and He said that if I believe in His word I get to share in His victory. That's His promise not my decision. It is His word and I trust Him to keep it. My only decision is the willingness to believe Him on His promises regardless of what I may appear to be or not, regardless of what occurs in my life or not. I believe Him and I stand upon that and that alone and all hell shall not remove me from that position because Jesus Christ promised.

And that is the only reason I am saved. It is the Word of God.

As far as timing is concerned explain to me this.

"as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent." Jn.17:2&3

If eternal life and salvation are the same thing then by saying you do not have salvation until "after death" you are, by your own admission, saying you know neither God nor Jesus Christ.

If however you want to explain that salvation and eternal life are not synonymous, then how can you have eternal life but not salvation? You see this is just one of the many, many areas of those who want to teach that salvation is not secure that gets me all confused. (least I would be if not for the Word)

with respect
peace

hoser said:

The fact that people believe in this false man-made doctrine is mind boggling to me. Why if one can never lose their salvation no matter what they do does scripture talk about the avoidance of sin so much? If you cannot lose your salvation why the need for this talk? Since sin will not cause a saved person from losing that salvation then the avoidance of sin is unimportant.

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Hoser, I agree with everything you are saying here. The fact that we have people asking questions like this proves that it is false doctrine.

Read this titled "When Church and State Collide."
http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/graham/050224

Government education, programs, and agendas have not only produced lousy citizens, they've produced people who are seriously disinclined to the core ideas of Christianity. To confess that you are a sinner is to admit that your problem is caused by your own sins and failures, something that's very hard to do if you refuse to ever take responsibility for your actions.

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A church cannot have an agenda. Is pushing this OSAS an agenda? Well, if it is the only thing your church teaches and nothing else then where do the other aspects of Christianity come in? Further, some don't believe in confessing sins to a Priests and only God will do. Fine, read the underlined above. Could it be that people are afraid to confess their sins to a Priest because they don't want to take responsibility for their actions? Confessing to God alone is fine (I do both especially in the Confessional). But if you don't have a clear clean contrite conscience other than saying you confessed a sin to God won't cut it as noted in that article.

Human nature to "self-interpret" is hurting a lot of people and our society. When it comes to people asking questions like this, it really does make you wonder what kind of an agenda your church is pushing.

Qoheleth said:

These Traditions were handed down from the Apostles by and through the Holy spirit unless you believe that the Holy spirit abandoned the Apostles immediatley following Pentecost.

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And the Lord had the good sense to get it all down in writing before they died. No I don't believe the Holy Spirit abandoned the Apostles.

Are you saying we have free will to choose God before our conversion yet after our conversion our free will is done away with (gone), and we are made to be puppets with no choice to remain in or leave the body of Christ?

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No I am not saying anything like that. Leaving aside the issue of freewill for the moment....

2Cor.5:17 "So if any one [be] in Christ, [there is] a new creation; the old things have passed away; behold all things have become new:"

If you think you have the power to recreate yourself and become something other than what God has made you, then you can "get out of the body". If however, you don't have that sort of power then you are "stuck" as a new creation in Christ. Sorry to disappoint you.

peace

Might I ask how one can lose something He did not obtain??? Many on here have said that God wants us to choose yet in the scripture we find our Savior of all people saying the exact opposite...

John 15:16You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit–fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name.

Also, does God not choose Israel? Is it because they are good or have done something to make Him choose them? No, He made a choice, not the nation of Israel...they didn't even acknowledge God, and yet He said HE not THEY would be righteous because HE not THEY would make their paths straight!
Isaiah 45

1 "This is what the LORD says to his anointed,


to Cyrus, whose right hand I take hold of

to subdue nations before him

and to strip kings of their armor,

to open doors before him

so that gates will not be shut:

2 I will go before you

and will level the mountains [a] ;

I will break down gates of bronze

and cut through bars of iron.

3 I will give you the treasures of darkness,

riches stored in secret places,

so that you may know that I am the LORD ,

the God of Israel, who summons you by name.

4 For the sake of Jacob my servant,

of Israel my chosen,

I summon you by name

and bestow on you a title of honor,

though you do not acknowledge me.

5 I am the LORD , and there is no other;

apart from me there is no God.

I will strengthen you,

though you have not acknowledged me,

6 so that from the rising of the sun

to the place of its setting

men may know there is none besides me.

I am the LORD , and there is no other.

7 I form the light and create darkness,

I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD , do all these things.

Just the same case exists in Micah, and a reference in Romans about Jacob and Esau, Paul tells us that before the kiddos had done anything of merit, good or bad, before they were born he HATED Esau and LOVED Jacob so that His purpose in Election might stand... What does this say to man about salvation? It says that we were created by God, FOR God, and that means for HIS PURPOSE as an object of His wrath or an object of mercy. We were CHOSEN before the foundation of the earth was laid to either be HOLY in His sight or to be unknown by Him.

Those that say, "Oh we make a choice to be saved!" Who gives you your faith? Who instills that faith within you? Who created your brain and designed you to be the way you are???(Psalms 139) You say, "So you blame God if you go to Hell?" Well I wouldn't call it blame, I would call it Soveriegnty over ALL things. Man plans in his heart the ways he will go, but GOD directs His steps. That means that we can plan alllll day long what we want, but GOD's WILL will be done, period. What more can an invention do than what it was DESIGNED to do? NOTHING! The Inventor designs all aspects of the creation and makes it for a SPECIFIC purpose. The thing can not say well I was created to cut open boxes, but now I will go and kill all that I see. Only the OWNER or CREATOR can say I will go and kill all that I see, and I will use this box knife to do it. God may change our purpose or have multiple purposes for us, but we can not stray outside the purpose, good or bad, that He has for us. As His chosen children, He promises us that He has a plan to prosper us and not to harm, and plan to give us hope and a future. That plan can not be faltered by me, for it is HE who sustains, and HE who purposes all of creation. God does not roll dice, and He does not lose, HE WILL WIN, and He gets what He wants.

Here are more scriptures that tell us about the soveriegnty of God:
Matthew 10:29
29Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father.

1 Samuel 2:7
7 The LORD sends poverty and wealth;he humbles and he exalts.8 He raises the poor from the dust and lifts the needy from the ash heap;he seats them with princes and has them inherit a throne of honor. "For the foundations of the earth are the LORD's;upon them he has set the world.

Psalms 75:


6 No one from the east or the west

or from the desert can exalt a man.

7 But it is God who judges: He brings one down, he exalts another.

Proverbs 16:


9 In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.

Proverbs 19:


21 Many are the plans in a man's heart, but it is the LORD's purpose that prevails.

Proverbs 20:


24 A man's steps are directed by the LORD . How then can anyone understand his own way?

Acts 17:26From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live.

Proverbs 16:


33 The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD .

Isaiah 50:


2 When I came, why was there no one?

When I called, why was there no one to answer?

Was my arm too short to ransom you?

Do I lack the strength to rescue you?

By a mere rebuke I dry up the sea,

I turn rivers into a desert;

their fish rot for lack of water and die of thirst.

Acts 3: 17“Now, brothers, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did your leaders. 18But this is how God fulfilled what he had foretold through all the prophets, saying that his Christ would suffer.

I can list about a thousand more if you like, but I figure you are probably tired of reading it at this point. My point is this, God has control over everything, He even makes people think certain ways to haev them fulfill a purpose of HIS. scripture backs this up consistently and it is pretty irrefutable.

God Be Blessed,

FOMWatts<><

My point is this, God has control over everything, He even makes people think certain ways to haev them fulfill a purpose of HIS. scripture backs this up consistently and it is pretty irrefutable.

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Actually, all Scripture seems to tell of many, many stories of how our merciful Lord allows His creation to make their own decisions and go their own way, only then to bring them back.


Q

Qoheleth said:

Actually, all Scripture seems to tell of many, many stories of how our merciful Lord allows His creation to make their own decisions and go their own way, only then to bring them back.


Q

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No scripture tells a story of a plan coming together, a plan set in motion by God, and carried out by God. It happens through the rebellion of some people and the obedience of others. He has designed us to carry out His plan, not our own, which would be "free will", a non-existent doctrine.

FOM<><

hoser said:

The fact that people believe in this false man-made doctrine is mind boggling to me. Why if one can never lose their salvation no matter what they do does scripture talk about the avoidance of sin so much? If you cannot lose your salvation why the need for this talk? Since sin will not cause a saved person from losing that salvation then the avoidance of sin is unimportant.

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If you understood that your soul or my soul (or anyone else's for that matter)
is not the big issue, you would understand why it is important not to sin. If you understood that we are saved in order that Christ is glorified you would not have to ask the question.

As regard to the rest of your other posts can you please explain one thing to me? How is it that Paul, who with confidence, states in Gal.2:20

"I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me"

...yet in the verses you quoted you conclude Paul didn't have Christ? How can that be? How could Paul run a race in order to win a prize, that prize being Christ, (v.8 ..that I may win Christ,) yet Christ is in him? What do you possibly think is going on here? Christ is in Paul but Paul doesn't have Him? Very confusing, don't you think?

peace

Qoheleth said:

Actually, all Scripture seems to tell of many, many stories of how our merciful Lord allows His creation to make their own decisions and go their own way, only then to bring them back.


Q

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I agree.

I honestly believe that if you get saved, you can lose your salvation. It is a gift that you can choose to accept, but like a natural gift you can misuse it or discard it altogether, if you are living as a slave to sin, ignoring Christ's gift that you once cherished you will not enter heaven.

FOMWatts<>< said:

No scripture tells a story of a plan coming together, a plan set in motion by God, and carried out by God. It happens through the rebellion of some people and the obedience of others. He has designed us to carry out His plan, not our own, which would be "free will", a non-existent doctrine.

FOM<><

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If God wills them to rebel aren't they doing God's will. And if they are doing God's will how can they be rebelling?
Sounds like an oxymoron to me.

peace

theywhosowintears said:

I honestly believe that if you get saved, you can lose your salvation. It is a gift that you can choose to accept, but like a natural gift you can misuse it or discard it altogether, if you are living as a slave to sin, ignoring Christ's gift that you once cherished you will not enter heaven.

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The only problem is that there is no scripture to back your belief, logically, I agree with the opposition here, but scripturally, salvation is of God, from God, by God, and ORDAINED to an elect and specific people, HIS CHILDREN.

FOM<><

nephilimiyr said:

Oh come on, lighten up a bit. Genez or sawdust don't mean to mock the topic or situation but are odviously just trying to keep things in perspective. The perspective being that we all here are saved by one Lord and by one saviour and we all agree on who that person is. Showing just enough humor and being respectful of others is how I see them conducting themselves so far.

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Sorry, thought the emoticons meant something and was unclear how those in particular were meant to promote discussion. I actually crack myself up all the time. Little hard to lighten up on such a heavy topic.

However, when I have such discussions with people like this in real life I would not consider it respectful for me to laugh at their statements, no matter how absurd I thought it was.

It was getting hard but will try not to get thin skinned on this. Thanks

sawdust said:

If God wills them to rebel aren't they doing God's will. And if they are doing God's will how can they be rebelling?
Sounds like an oxymoron to me.

peace

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Rebelling is going against God's ways, not His will. Did he not allow Jonah to run away from his duty to speak out in the horrible place called Ninevah, but did He not also, purpose a stinkin' whale to swallow Jonah and break him down so that he would submit and realize his error? Don't you think we learn from our rebellion??? God wants us to learn and sometimes he gives us over to Satan to make us learn, take a gander at the book of Job, or the life of Paul, was it Paul that decided to become a Christian and stop killing them, or was it not God who appeared before him and changed his heart??? God did it, God did it, and God did it...

FOM<><

genez said:

It says, "Our Lord." The Lord of those who believed! Jesus is not Lord of the unbeliever. Satan, is.
Gene

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And we must disagree there. God, Jesus is Lord of all and EVERY knee will bow. Some of those knees will be forced. The point is who do you follow each day, every moment of this life, but Jesus is still Lord regardless of our choices.

Rebelling is going against God's ways, not His will.

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How does one separate God's will from his ways?

Q

Qoheleth said:

How does one separate God's will from his ways?

Q

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Very carefully, we must acknowledge that EVEN sin is under the control and soveriegnty of God...everything on this earth will come together to bring God the glory. God can ordain what evil things are to happen and what is not to happen, with Job He alowed Satan to torment and test him, but HE set rules, Job can not be killed. God KNEW Job because He formed Job and purposed him to be faithful unto Him, but the Devil did not know Job, he just thought he could do enough bad things to make him turn. Is it God's way to test and tempt us to turn from Him? No, but did he allow the devil to do it? Yep. That is a case of distinction between God's will, and His way, His ways would comprise His character.

FOM<><