Originally posted by parousia70
Messenger.
I see from much of your post, we can find limited agreement.
What I disagree with is the same thing I disagree with Willis about (imagine that). You seem to be claiming by your suicide remark that Choosing to abstain from the tree of life would be choosing against Gods will, when God mad it clear that Adam was "free" to eat from it before the fall, not "forced" to.
The only choice that was against God was the choice to eat from the tree of knowledge. Thats the only one. Adam could choose one day to eat a pear, then choose the next day not to eat a pear but to eat a mango instead. This choice not to eat the pear would not have been against God as you would have it, because Adam was "free" to eat from every tree.
the word "free" here is in the sense of "allowed" which would still leave choice, just as i am "free" to eat pizza one day or hamburgers the next, it does not matter what i eat, only the fact that i eat. i am "forced" to eat if i want to live this is true of pickles and fruit from the tree of life.
Originally posted by parousia70
Your statement that I have intellectualized the meaning and the purpose of the cross away, couldn't be farther from the truth. I don't believe the Cross was a "mere" local execution with no ramifications for us today any more than I believe AD70 was a mere "local" coming of Christ with no ramifications for us today.
Christ's finished work restored our seperation from God.
I believe Physical death was a reality for man before the fall, but once the fall erected the barrier between man and God, Physical death became a big problem. Christ fixed the problem, and now physical death has been restored back into Gods servant to bring man into a deeper level of human existance, which I believe was it's original purpose, intended from the foundation of the world.
when you look at how the seperation was restored, you find that this restoration is an undoing of the effect of knowing good and evil. Adam gained this knowledge from the fruit, we got it from the law, the effect was the same.
as for saying physical death was a reality for man before the fall, i disagree. just for kicks lets say adam had choice to live or not... and we find it does not matter because it is a moot point. we are different than Adam because since we presently have no access to the tree of life, we have no choice...we are going to physically die. it is not a choice for us nor was it a choice for adam after his banishment. though Christ we have rewon our right to it, but our access will not be until we are resurrected.
Originally posted by parousia70
Physical death, in and of itself, is not a "barrier" between man and God.
i agree. physical death in fact removes the barrier because we are resurrected with a body that is made worthy to be in His presence, just as becoming believers made us spiritually worthy. the barrier is the sin nature of the body. before adam and eve sinned, this barrier was not present.
Originally posted by parousia70
I'll say it again,
Christ didn't come to "restore" that which was not "lost". [/B]
actually he did, to have access to the tree we have to die and be resurrected, no Christ=no resurrection of life and access to the tree. this is why in my orginal point i said it was important to remember that Adam was physically in paradise.
this is my point the actual choice to live or die is the choice to obey Dod or not, Adam and Eve chose to disobey God and did in fact did "surely die" only the death they were thinking of was not immediate, but came about after denial of access to the tree of life. the death they did not see butwas immediate was the spiritual death by attaining the knowledge of good and evil without the ability to do only good.
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