What's the basis for purgatory?

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jukesk9

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Hoon,

This is another reason why I disagree with the "It is finished" position taken by a lot of Protestants. True, Christ never has to die again for us. However, His work here on earth will not be done entirely until the Second Coming. Someone is always sinning and will always need forgiveness. The Gospel still needs to be preached everywhere. I personally believe that God hurts each time we sin against Him. So, is His work done? In my opinion, no. I don't deny His suffering, etc. But, we're always offending Him. I mean, you think some of the debate over on the interfaith is pleasing to Him?
 
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isshinwhat

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I think that you have taken 1 Cor 3:15 out of context. In 1 cor 3 it is talking about cults and false religions. Not that sins will be burned away. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I don't think it's talking about false religions. Paul and Apollos were ministers of the Gospel. Paul was saying it didn't matter which minister brought you to the truth, only that your truth is founded upon Christ. 1 Cor 5 "What then is Apol'los? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, as the Lord assigned to each."

What Paul says will be burned away are those works of ours that are not based on Christ, the true foundation. 1 Cor 3:15 "If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire." Our works that are not done out of faith on Christ will be burnt up, but we ourselves will be saved. Wouldn't something not done out of faith be sin?

In Christ,

Neal
 
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isshinwhat

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It's very clear to me that Gal 5:1 is referring to the old covenant rituals and such. In fact that's what Paul was addressing to the Galatian church. I think Gal 5:1 is a reiternation of Gal 4:9:

That is very true. But while we were under the law, what were we slaves to?

Romans 6:17
But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed,

I think the real meat of Paul's statement is his concern of their submission to slavery. When they put themselves under the Law and left Christ, they became slaves to sin again because of the law. Look at the very end of Galatians 4:9:

how can you turn back again to the weak and beggarly elemental spirits, whose slaves you want to be once more?

What brought them back into sin (choosing the Law over/in addition to Christ) isn't as important to Paul as the fact that they have again submitted to sin. They have become slaves to the elemental, fleshly spirits which he lists later in Galatians 5:19. The true cause of Paul's concern isn't technically their folowing the Law, but what that action means: that they are disobeying God and hae fallen into sin. That is why at the end he asks them in Galatians 5:7 "who hindered you from obeying the truth?" He wanted them to follow the truth and have life, not disobey and die in sin.

I think I've just confused myself, too. Is whatI'm trying to say clear at all. I know its kinda stream-of-consciousness.

With the love of Christ,

Neal
 
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Hoonbaba

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Originally posted by isshinwhat
That is very true. But while we were under the law, what were we slaves to?

The old covenant 'death'. 2 Corinthians 3:6 says the letter kills but the Spirit gives life. I think this is relevant because Gal 4:21-31 clearly spells out the 2 types of covenants: One was of slavery (i.e. Hagar) and the other is free (Sarah). Check out the passage =)

I think the real meat of Paul's statement is his concern of their submission to slavery. When they put themselves under the Law and left Christ, they became slaves to sin again because of the law. Look at the very end of Galatians 4:9:

how can you turn back again to the weak and beggarly elemental spirits, whose slaves you want to be once more?

What brought them back into sin (choosing the Law over/in addition to Christ) isn't as important to Paul as the fact that they have again submitted to sin. They have become slaves to the elemental, fleshly spirits which he lists later in Galatians 5:19. The true cause of Paul's concern isn't technically their folowing the Law, but what that action means: that they are disobeying God and hae fallen into sin. That is why at the end he asks them in Galatians 5:7 "who hindered you from obeying the truth?" He wanted them to follow the truth and have life, not disobey and die in sin.

I think I've just confused myself, too. Is whatI'm trying to say clear at all. I know its kinda stream-of-consciousness.

With the love of Christ,

Neal

I believe 'elemental spirits' is a mistranslation in Galatians 4:9. NIV translation says, "miserable principles" and I think that's accurate (despite the fact that NIV isn't all too great of a literal translation).

The greek word for 'elements' is "stoicheion" which means: rudiments, principles, etc. They appears in the following passages:

Gal 4:3, Col 2:8, Col 2:20, Heb 5:12

So also, when we were children, we were in slavery under the basic principles of the world. (Gal 4:3, NIV)

See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ. (Col 2:8, NIV)

Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: (Col 2:20, NIV)

In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! (Heb 5:12, NIV)

By the way the Heb 5:12 in NIV is a bit off. KJV uses 'first principles' :)

In every instance that word refers to the old covenant principles and such. I don't see why it wouldn't be any different from Gal 4:9:

But now that you know God--or rather are known by God--how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable principles? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? (Gal 4:9, NIV)

Well, that's just my thoughts on that passage =)

God bless!

-Jason
 
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isshinwhat

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Check out the passage =)

Thanks for the reference. I'll check it out.

I've always wondered...I think John Paul II generally refers to Purgatory as a place, but others often refer to it as a state. I've been told it hasn't really been decided what it is, but I'm curious what my friends here think.

Neal
 
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VOW

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To Neal:

Purgatory, to me, exists as a place, only in that it isn't Heaven, it isn't Hell, it isn't Earth. But part of the problem is that we are trying to force three-dimensional characteristics to something which has no dimension and all dimensions. I've even heard of the concept of someone "offering up" pain on behalf of a dead loved one, to lessen the agony suffered at that person's death. Clearly, this is Star-Trekian time warp reasoning, but when I thought about it, hey, why not? We can only think of time as linear, because we are bound by the physical world. I would liken it to trying to teach a toddler the four cardinal directions when the kid is still having trouble with "left" and "right."

I love to learn. I look upon each new day as another learning experience, and I hope to live a long, fruitful life where I can explore as much of God's amazing world as I possibly can. But Death doesn't hold as much fear for me as it did years ago, when I was much younger, because the IDEA of so many new things to learn in the next life is a fantastic idea!


Peace be with you,
~VOW
 
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jukesk9

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Hoon,

Here's some more info on the basis of Purgatory:

"However, for Jews, gehenna—while certainly a terribly unpleasant place—is not hell. The majority of rabbinic thought maintains that people are not tortured in hell forever; the longest that one can be there is said to be 12 months. It is a spiritual forge where the soul is purified for its eventual ascent to Gan Eden [Heaven], and where all imperfections are purged. [In this sense, it is somewhat similar to the Roman Catholic purgatory, however the time period has a definate maximum]. Gehennom (lit: the valley of Hinnom, in Jerusalem; i.e. hell) is the sinner's experience in the afterlife. In other words, it's the same "place" as gan eiden (lit: the garden of Eden; i.e. heaven) — it's the perspective of the individual that makes it one or the other." http://www.shamash.org/lists/scj-faq/HTML/faq/12-08.html

If praying for the dead is wrong, then why didn't Jesus say, "Okay. I know ya'll are used to praying for the dead and all but today we stop doing that"? This is a practice that is so ancient amongst the Jews it's hard to document it's beginnings. It was in place well before Jesus came. Devout, faithful Jews did it and still do it. Same with Catholics as we are the fulfillment of Judaism.
 
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nyj

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Originally posted by isshinwhat
I've always wondered...I think John Paul II generally refers to Purgatory as a place, but others often refer to it as a state. I've been told it hasn't really been decided what it is, but I'm curious what my friends here think.

It's the other way around actually.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2HEAVN.HTM
 
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Hoonbaba

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VOW

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To Jason:

Mosey on over to Interfaith Discussion and check out the current hot topic thread on Purgatory. You'll have to wade through a bit of muck ( ::: uploading hip boots ::: ) but you'll find extensive explanations for the questions you have asked. Wols also posted a bunch of Scriptural references, too.

Give it a test drive, and then see if we can clear up any lingering questions.


Peace be with you,
~VOW
 
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isshinwhat

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When/how does one enter this process of purification?

It's easy, you die ;-) Although, I guess technically, Purgatory is the last phase of a purification begun at Baptism...

So Purgatory is not a place but a condition?

Believe it or not, the Church doesn't say :) Whether it is a state or a place, the Holy Spirit has not chosen to show us yet, so it's not been dogmatically defined. The current Pope speaks of it as a state, but we are just as free to speak of it as a literal place, like Sheol before Christ. I tend to lean toward looking at it as a state of purification after death, before we enter the presence of God. Is it a specific place...is it the tunnel toward the light...LOL! I have no idea. Until it becomes a problem, or leads to theological errors, I doubt we'll see any definate proclimation in this regard from Rome.

I think the one who posted that about it being now was mistaken. Look at the last line. Don't worship Jesus...sounds fishy to me...

In Christ,

Neal
 
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