A Free Heart Transplant

sweetrevival · Feb 25, 2005

TO DISPARAGE THE CROSS IS TO DISPARAGE AND GRIEVE THE HOLY SPIRIT, ISN'T IT!!

Dear Lord Mark, people - evil people - witches - use the cross with defilement - Ihave always thought that it was a symbol of our faith - but it is our faith on display isn't it. It is the embodiment of everything. The blood soaked cross!

Mark Downham · Feb 25, 2005

Sweet Revival

I hold that the Holy Spirit did not leave Jesus on the Cross and chose separation with Him from the Father - on the Cross God experienced separation from Himself - those who talk down the Cross have no conception of the work of the Cross or what God suffered - do not be deceived - those who reject the Cross reject Jesus.

1 Corinthians 10:1 - 5

For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. 2They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3They all ate the same spiritual food 4and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. 5Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered over the desert.

And know this - it is not what the 10 Commandments were written on - but who were they written on - they were written on Jesus as the Living Stone - who the builders rejected and when they rejected Him, they rejected the Cross.

Mark

Maharg · Feb 25, 2005

I think that there may be a number of understandings and interpretations of the term 'cross' being used here.

For some people, when they say the cross, they mean Jesus' death and all it stood for.

Some use the term cross literally to mean the method in which Christ was killed.

Others seems to be using the term cross meaning the symbol worn by Christians today and used to identify the Chritian faith. I think that this is why there is disagreement here about the significanec of the cross. All of these different uses of the term 'cross' have different significance.

sweetrevival · Feb 25, 2005

I am crying Mark - Jesus wasn't resting on rough, jagged wood, he was being comforted by the Comforter, the storm of rain and lightning that attacked Jerualem when He gave up His life was the grief filled tears of our God in His aloneness. Oh Mark - howmuch did God want us back that He could have faced that awful sight on His own. I am so full of His tears and His pain - He grieved so awfully, that the angels hid their heads under their wings so as not to see His grief, because it would have destroyed them. How could satan have seen that and not fallen on his face before His God. God's mercy...I cannot comprehend it.

Mark Downham · Feb 25, 2005

Sweet Revival

I will suffer many things for the sake of the Gospel but I will not tolerate someone talking down the Cross - there are numerous people who will claim to be spirit-filled believers - but it does not mean anything if they reject the Cross - those who reject the Cross are playing into the hands of our enemies and our adversaries.

Mark
Mark

Mark Downham · Feb 25, 2005

Sweet revival

Do You know that when the Father was left alone - ALL THREE MEBERS OF THE TRINITY SIMULTANEOUSLY CRIED OUT MY GOD , MY GOD WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME - THEN THE LOVING FATHER, OUR LOVING FATHER IN HEAVEN, SAW THE SYMBOLIC SCAPE GOAT, RETURNING FROM OUTSIDE THE CAMP (HELL), THE SYMBOLIC PRODIGAL SON AND RAN TO MEET HIM - THE PARABLE OF THE PRODIGAL SON ALSO COVERS THE RETURN OF JESUS AND THE SPIRIT INTO COOMUNION AND UNION WITH THE FATHER -

I actually have to forgive Quaffer and repent like God when he repented over the Flood- or I would sin in the depth of anguish I feel over the issue of the Cross and some of her statements.

Mark

KleinerApfel · Feb 25, 2005

Still some work to do on my heart Lord. Sweetrevival, I am unable to shed a single tear just now. Don't know why.
I'm a cry baby in the natural, but recently I can barely shed a tear, and stuff this precious thread really brings home to me what I am lacking.
I'm yearning to let God move me agin, and so much is happening this week yet my eyes are dry.
Lord Jesus, I offer You my symbolic tears,

until the dam is unblocked.

Thank you Sweetrevival and Mark; God is shining the light of this thread on my emptiness, so I won't forget to keep asking him about it.

Love, Susana

Mark Downham · Feb 25, 2005

Maharg

I think that there may be a number of understandings and interpretations of the term 'cross' being used here.

For some people, when they say the cross, they mean Jesus' death and all it stood for.

Some use the term cross literally to mean the method in which Christ was killed.

We are constantly reminded of the Crusades as a justification for trashing the Cross - those who keep rolling out this divisive argument are as worldly as those who participated in the Crusades - Now lets be clear about this -

Matthew 11:12

12From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing, and forceful men lay hold of it.

Those forceful men are worldly Powers, Principalities, Thrones, Dominions and Ruling Forces who subvert the Cross for their own ends - the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, the Counter Refornmation, the Conquisadors and all those who claim to be in Communion with the Lamb put pull down the Cross - do not be taken in by any of their claims - the blood of Jesus shed on the Cross speeaks abetter claim than any worldly claim - which are coming to nothing and all those who attempt to promote a system of religious beliefs without the Cross - all they have is an empty form wothout any soteriological substance and are playing into the hands of the world, the flesh and the devil.

Mark

Maharg · Feb 25, 2005

Mark

I just do not see anyone disparaging the Cross here (as in the definiftion of Christ's suffering and all it stood for). All I see is someone putting forward that the reason some people find the image of the cross difficult is because of the atrocities committed by people who wore that symbol at one point in history. A symbol of a cross and it's usage is a completely different matter from disparaging Jesus' death on a cross, which I do not see here at all.

Maharg

Mark Downham · Feb 25, 2005

Maharg

I just do not see anyone disparaging the Cross here (as in the definiftion of Christ's suffering and all it stood for). All I see is someone putting forward that the reason some people find the image of the cross difficult is because of the atrocities committed by people who wore that symbol at one point in history. A symbol of a cross and it's usage is a completely different matter from disparaging Jesus' death on a cross, which I do not see here at all

That is a fair and balanced reflection - however , the subtext in this historical refutation of the Cross is at the heart of a dialectical tension between those who identify with Jesus on the Cross and those who are clinging to a system of dead works.

Thank you - for your equitable treatment of the subject.

Mark

Maharg · Feb 25, 2005

Mark,

Thank you for your reply. I don't really know a great deal about the subtext behind this rejection of the cross - the history behind it so my post was simply made on the basis of what I see here. Understanding the meaning of the cross is close to my heart at the moment, so it is something I will continue to reflect on and to try and understand more about.

Thanks,
Maharg

Mark Downham · Feb 25, 2005

Maharg

You have confessed in another thread - that the meaning of the Cross keeps slipping away from you - this is not a Cognitive engagement but a spiritual revelation -

John Bunyan - 'The Pilgrim's Progress' - "Now I saw in my dream, that the highway up which Christian was to go, was fenced on either side with a wall, and that wall was called Salvation. Isaiah 26:1. Up this way, therefore, did burdened Christian run, but not without great difficulty, because of the load on his back.

He ran thus till he came at a place somewhat ascending; and upon that place stood a cross, and a little below, in the bottom, a sepulchre. So I saw in my dream, that just as Christian came up with the cross, his burden loosed from off his shoulders, and fell from off his back, and began to tumble, and so continued to do till it came to the mouth of the sepulchre (the empty tomb), where it fell in, and I saw it no more.

Then was Christian glad and lightsome, and said with a merry heart, "He hath given me rest by his sorrow, and life by his death." Then he stood still a while, to look and wonder; for it was very surprising to him that the sight of the cross should thus ease him of his burden. He looked, therefore, and looked again, even till the springs that were in his head sent the waters down his cheeks. Zechariah. 12:10. Now as he stood looking and weeping, behold, three Shining Ones came to him, and saluted him with, "Peace be to thee." So the first said to him, "Thy sins be forgiven thee," Mark 2:5; the second stripped him of his rags, and clothed him with change of raiment, Zechariah. 3:4; the third also set a mark on his forehead, Ephesians. 1:13, and gave him a roll with a seal upon it, which he bid him look on as he ran, and that he should give it in at the celestial gate: so they went their way. Then Christian gave three leaps for joy, and went on singing."

At the end of his life Jacob was leaning on the staff he carried after his hip was wrenched - he was symbolically leaning on the Cross (a prophetic sign, declaration and action of total dependence on the Lord Jesus Christ) - Genesis 47:31, Hebrews 11:21 - when people say Christianity is for those who need a crutch - absolutely, we all need the Cross.

Quaffer has been deeply offensive to our central systems of beliefs in her approach to the Cross - now she has come under the influence of Messianic Judiaism - which implicitly rejects the Cross and uses historical arguments about the Crusades as a justification for pulling down the Cross - we will not tolerate that type of behaviour in a SPIRIT FILLED CHRISTIAN FORUM.

Mark

Mark Downham · Feb 25, 2005

Maharg

The Lord is saying to leave this in His hands - so I am not going to address this issue further.

In His Love.

Mark

heartofheaven · Feb 25, 2005

I believe that somehow we got off the subject of this thread. It goes to show you ,how we are if we do not check our heart-of-hearts,we need Him to clean,refresh us by the blood that was shed at Calvary.........we need the cross to remind us of what we are or would be with out that happening, I believe pride can get in our way ,without it. We need to come with all humility before the Lord,even when He has given us a boldness to come before His throne,He did not mean that we come with our fists out ,ready to take advantage of our God-given rights, but that we are free from what the enemy tried to take from us,before shedding His blood.We are set free,because of Calvary!!!Thankyou Lord for a new heart~ from taking out the heart of stone,and giving me a heart of flesh,for without the Cross,we would not be where we are today,thank you,Lord!!

Mark Downham · Feb 25, 2005

Bonnie

I believe that somehow we got off the subject of this thread. It goes to show you ,how we are if we do not check our heart-of-hearts,we need Him to clean,refresh us by the blood that was shed at Calvary.........we need the cross to remind us of what we are or would be with out that happening, I believe pride can get in our way ,without it. We need to come with all humility before the Lord,even when He has given us a boldness to come before His throne,He did not mean that we come with our fists out ,ready to take advantage of our God-given rights, but that we are free from what the enemy tried to take from us,before shedding His blood.We are set free,because of Calvary!!!Thankyou Lord for a new heart~ from taking out the heart of stone,and giving me a heart of flesh,for without the Cross,we would not be where we are today,thank you,Lord!!

You always restore the Heart of the Levites - His glory will always rest on your House and the exiles are going to return.

Love.

Mark

Mark Downham · Feb 25, 2005

For Sweet Revival

Who interceded for a Levite when He had sinned -
Isaiah 42

The Servant of the Lord

1 "Here is my servant, whom I uphold,

my chosen one in whom I delight;

I will put my Spirit on her

and she will bring justice to the nations (symbolic - this forum and beyond).

2 She will not shout or cry out,

or raise her voice in the streets.

3 A bruised reed she will not break (the Levite),

and a smoldering wick she will not snuff out (His repentance).

In faithfulness she will bring forth justice (restore Him to His ministry);

4 she will not falter or be discouraged

till she establishes justice on earth (her sphere of ministry).

In the manifest presence of Jesus releasd threough Sweet Revivaland her ministry - the islands (the refugees- the sealanes are always full of refugees trying to get home) will put their hope (She will be aguiding Light into the fulness of His Presence)."

5 This is what God the LORD says-

he who created the heavens and stretched them out,

who spread out the earth and all that comes out of it,

who gives breath to its people,

and life to those who walk on it:

6 "I, the LORD , have called you Sweet Revival in righteousness;

I will take hold of your hand.

I will keep you and will make you

to be a covenant for the people

and a light for the Gentiles,

7 to open eyes that are blind,

to free captives from prison and to release from the dungeon those who sit in darkness.

Wow.

Amen.

Mark

sweetrevival · Feb 25, 2005

i was brought up a Catholic - I never saw a Bible or knew of its importance until just before i was saved at 38.

When I was 7 I ploughed my way through The Pilgrim's Progress - I never saw that book in our house again, and never read it again, and I can only remember little bits of it. The Slough of Despair particularly comes to mind.

I don't know why God would lead a 7 year old to read this book, then 30 years later draw her to Himself. I don't know why lots of things. Every time I would be asked to give the communion message at church God would always bring it on the Cross. I knew it was important to Him, I just never knew how much.

I have learned something tonight from this thread, that I will never forget. God touched me with the awful despair He felt at the Crucifixion of His Beloved Son. I cannot express His pain. I pray that you all will feel it too, for then none of us would ever, ever doubt His love for us again. I couldn't come back to this thread until my tears have stopped, now being back again they are starting up.

sweetrevival · Feb 25, 2005

Mark - you could not know that God has been using me and others in our area to build into this physical world a refuge for the times ahead.

The Proclamation the Lord gave thechurch Prophet speaks of refugees coming to our town, and all His chosen workers meeting their needs, discerning their motives and offering them His refuge.

I had never heard of this - and the Proclamation was rejected by our church leadership, but accepted by most of the congregation. I only recently found Numbers 35:12 They shall be cities of refuge for you from the avenger, that the manslayer may not die until he stands before the congregation in judgment. Joshua 20:2 Speak to the children of Israel, saying "Appoint for yourselves cities of refuge, of which I spoke to you through Moses.."

The Lord had us go around the area, and He told us which parts would be granaries, others prayer keeps, others a voice into the world, and more.

We placed Blood lines across all entry roads, rivers, creeks, planes, railways, etc. Ihave seen in the spirit world a seven sided wall around the town, with the entry to the east still open.

He has set this area in place for the days to come, when evil sweeps the world and we, His children, must find safe keeping. Through this, I have come to believe that we will be on this earth for a major part of the tribulation time - I have no information as to how long - but long enough to need safety places.

I thank you with a humble heart for that message - i trust I will live up to it.

Mark Downham · Feb 25, 2005

Sweet Revival

This is a deep healing of your Heart - the Cross is an unfolding revelation that will never stop until the Consummation of all things in Him - the Lord Jesus Christ - I just think they have no comprehension of how deep the Cross runs in a Spirit Filled Believers Life - the root of the problem is pentecostal teaching does not sufficently engage the Cross - having said that Reformed Evangelical and Roman Catholic teaching do not sufficently engage Life in the Spirit.

Love.

Mark

Mark Downham · Feb 25, 2005

Maharg

Dear Heart - the John Bunyan stuff I posted in the Meaning of the Cross - if You read that and ask Jesus to reveal the Cross to You - there will be an opening in the Clouds , a door in Heaven will open for You into revelation and insight and there will be an unblocking and the sound of rushing water with the falling of towers and the collapsing strongholds into rubble that the river, the Life of His presence will sweep away -

Be opened in every perceptual faculty You possess in beholding the Cross and through the Cross, beholding the Lamb!

Amen.

Mark

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