actually GW, i have understood Paul perfectly
that is why i can simply post scripture and it makes sense, buy you have to post paragraph after paragraph of "interpretation" and in many cases wind up making scripture mean the exact opposite of what it plainly says, your mistake is simple, your using doctrine to determine the meaning of scripture, instead of using scripture to determine your doctrine.
Romans 6:1-8
What shall we say then?
Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death , so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his . We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the sinful body might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin. For he who has died is freed from sin. But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him .
you see GW, this is where your whole argument breaks down. your saying these are references to a single redemption that occured in 70ad but you use words and how they are arranged as prooftexts that were written BEFORE that time...think about that. you see there was a redemption that occured in 30ad, namely the cross, anyone living past that time that believed in Christ were included in that redemption.
here you will find both redemptions spoken of.
Galatians 3:23-29
Now before faith came, we were confined under the law, kept under restraint until faith should be revealed . So that the law was our custodian until Christ came, that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come , we are no longer under a custodian; for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise .
this was a present reality pre70ad made possible by a redemptive sacrifice in 30ad, again i remind you...remember when it was written. in Romans 7 Paul goes into further detail about how they ARE(not will be) "dead to" and "discharged from" the Law.
this is also what destroyed your argument everyone was under the law until 70ad. according to scripture, they obviously were not.
now look at this:
Romans 8:23
and not only the creation, but we ourselves,
who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as
we wait for adoption as sons ,
the redemption of our bodies.
but wait! are they not ALREADY "sons"?
Galatians 4:5-7
But when the time had fully come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!" So through God you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son then an heir .
now compare that to Romans 8:23 that i have already posted. these are 2 different timelines the redemption of the spirit, which brings about the redemption of the body at death. one HAS to be a son spiritually to become a son physically. spiritual redemption makes us heirs, physical redemption is RECIEVING the inheritance.
this is a perfect harmony of scripture, and directly backs me up. i do not have to "interpet" it means what it simply says.
now as far as you trying to say the dead were not preached to, i think this is your weakest argument yet, and is a microcosm of you greater error.
quote by GW
Jesus did not preach to any dead persons in Hades. Peter was saying what Paul also had said, namely that Christ was active in the Old Testament times:
1 Cor 10:1-2,3,9
all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea...And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ...Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents
Peter is pointing out that Christ was there preaching with Noah's family to the disobedient while the Ark was being prepared and only 8 were saved by water -- Peter compares that to the salvation through water baptism. Paul taught that this was true also with Moses (1 Cor 10; Heb 11:26) and also with Father Abraham (Gal 3:8). Compare:
1 Peter 4:6
For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead,
Galatians 3:8
And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
your throwing 1 Peter 3:18-20 right out the window, and trashing the meaning of it. the people used as an example here GW are the ones that DIED IN THE FLOOD.
For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God,
being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly did not obey , when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.
look at the events here:
1. Christ physically died, but was alive in the spirit.
"being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit"
2. IN WHICH he WENT and preached to the spirits in PRISON who FORMERLY DID NOT OBEY.
"in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly did not obey"
i also notice your still ignoring my simple question, you just wont face the fact that YOU yourself are proof i am right!
you have the spiritual redemption from sin, but your still in a physical body, unglorified, not immortal, you are still liable to death, still needing a redemption of the body GW! you are waiting on this promise of redemption from the earth, but have not attained it yet. your going to die before you get resurrected. just like the bible says.