A Question about the 'Nicene Creed'

Quaffer

There is no dispute that Christ's church IS triumphant or that Jesus crushed Satan's head.

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Good. We are all the Church and that includes the Messianc Jews - we cannot go foward with them - I certainly will not - this is turning into an Ecumenical Council - ironic - it is agood thing yu are so sanctified Quaffer - I can be machievellian and switch back into a Jacob state from an Israel state - I confess and you are sanctified - you really are.

But, what work of the Passover was incomplete?

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Yes. Even the Cross is incomplete without the Resurrection.

It did what it was intended to do when the death angel passed over the homes of all who had the blood of the lamb on it...the same as those with the Blood of the Lamb covering our sins and making us righteous.

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Yes. However, the paschal lamb as prophetic symbol, enacted ritual and reaching forward event was killed at the original Passover and resurrected through the Cross on - Resurrection Sunday - quaffer, you are going to get me into trouble with the Bishops all over again - well lay on. Truth is truth.

The Passover was a forshadow of God's future plan...it was complete in it's events and what it did and what it fortold and is still cause for celebration

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I do not dispute that - but I do dispute any notion that does not see that the Cross and the Resurrection cannot be broken apart or we break the Church and break the Body of Christ all over again.

If you celebrate Passover and then simply say well Easter Sunday is a convenient date chosen by Constantine to syncetistically meld Christianity with his polyglot approach to accretionist paganism - then I am going to stand up and start asking some hard questions and challenge anyone who appears to be placing the Resurrection beneath the Passover.

I have already confessed that it was unhelpful to take a fiery and potentially unreasoning line on this - but I will let go of everything - I mean everything for the sake of the Resurrection -

With Love.

Mark

Mark Downham said:

Quaffer



If you celebrate Passover and then simply say well Easter Sunday is a convenient date chosen by Constantine to syncetistically meld Christianity with his polyglot approach to accretionist paganism - then I am going to stand up and start asking some hard questions and challenge anyone who appears to be placing the Resurrection beneath the Passover.


With Love.

Mark

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Again Mark, you are addressing things that were NOT said nor believed by any believer who celebrates Passover. The resurrection was the Triumph of Jesus over death, hell, and the grave. Passover is exactly the celebration of that.

Mark, have you ever participated in a Passover celebration with a Messianic group? If not I would highly reccommend it...I think it would be informative on some points that it does not appear you are aware of in regards to Passover.

To me, it's kinda like what is called communion, only on a deeper level. Jesus said, "Do THIS in remembrance of Me" IOW "every year when you are celebrating Passover, DO IT (the breaking of the bread and the drinking of the wine), in remembrance of me" It all points to his death and resurrection and our deliverance from the law of sin and death.

Asaph brought this to my attention... when I posted earlier this morning, I misinterpreted the actual meaning of "Catholic"... it actually means universal, not united.

Thanks for reminding me Asaph... I knew what I meant it's just I was half-asleep...

but I guess I will not accept the invalidation of the Nicene Creed because of the political machinations of Constantine - the Bishops at the Council of Nicea 325 AD were godly men - exactly the type of men who mourned the death of Stephen -

While I do not remember the exact phrasing of the creed, as best as I can remember, there was nothing that I objected to. Constatine is whom I hold contempt for. Apparently this is not the place for it, but he changed quite a few things , or finalized them that were plain hateful to the Jews. And because of this, the Jews see us as folks that follow a paganistic, religion with three gods.
It really hard to evangelize the Jews because of traditions that we have taken on. Meanwhile, we are telling the Jews, who follow the Bible (the OT) very closely and still follow the Holy Days that God laid out, that they will burn in Hell forever. See the delemna?
Bruce

Bruce101 said:

*****
the Bishops at the Council of Nicea 325 AD were godly men - exactly the type of men who mourned the death of Stephen -
*****

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You may be right. Then on the other hand …

May I ask how you know this?

\o/

Bruce101 said:

See the delemna?
Bruce

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Yes....I do. Because I have many Jewish co-workers who are non believers I have for this reason changed the way I do many things. . . or even whether I do them or not. I have NOT changed the gospel but I have changed me and the way I present the gospel. I think the non believing Jew tends to view Christianity as the religion of Constantine and Hitler. Both men hated them and both men claimed their actions against the Torah following believers to be Christian.

In NO WAY am I saying all or any Christians should change....just have understanding of what is and is not being said by your Messianic brothers and sisters who love and follow Jesus just as you do.

Quaffer

Dear Heart - I will addrress you first -

Again Mark, you are addressing things that were NOT said nor believed by any believer who celebrates Passover. The resurrection was the Triumph of Jesus over death, hell, and the grave. Passover is exactly the celebration of that.

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In part - it is not a complete celebration - the resurrection is not in the Passover but in Crossing the Red Sea.

Mark, have you ever participated in a Passover celebration with a Messianic group? If not I would highly reccommend it...I think it would be informative on some points that it does not appear you are aware of in regards to Passover.

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Yes. I have an informed understanding of their hermeneutical approach to the Passover - I have gone over the Passover again and again and again - you are not dealing with the catechumenate in your conversation with me - although the Passover is in effect a form of Catechesis as all prophetic symbols are - if you want to press this point I will strip down the entire passover to its biblical essentials and show you a number of added traditions - some of which are actually a form of soteriological hermeneutic and prophetic symblism - particularly in the separation of the Matzo(s) into three - sounds trinitarian to me - I could take this much deeper Quaffer and exegete every act, every symbol, every gesture, every word in the Passover - even the differences between the Orthodox Jewish approach to the Passover and the subtle changes of emphasis introduced by Messianic Jewish celebration - Quaffer, I love you and in some ways you have shone a light on my own potential for fiery dogma, inflexible doctrine and the break between judgement and mercy and the need for inclusiveness to triumph over exclusiveness - my direct maternal ancestor is Oliver Cromwell who allowed the Jews to return to England after they were expelled by Edward 1 - so when you talk to me you are talking to my Puritan roots and the Church militant and triumphant and nothing is going to stop us- not anything from winning for the Lamb the rewards of His sufferings - I am committed to everyone in this Forum - but no-one is going to pull down the Cross in front of us and try to bury it in tradition,symbol, ritual and law - the Cross is the Tree of Life and everything including the passover crosses over through the Cross - when they crossed over the Red Sea - they were symbolically crossing over through the Blood of the Cross - but on the other hand I would be the first to stand up and defend the right for our Messianic Jewish Brethren and Sisterine to celebrate the Passover in a redemptive and soteriological way and I would be even be prepared to be numbered with them for the sake of the Church which is the Blood of Jesus.

To me, it's kinda like what is called communion, only on a deeper level.

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There is nothing deeper than Communion with Jesus expressed through Holy Communion - although thee way Liturgical Denominations have treated doctrine, liturgy and the celebration of Communion have turned it into an impenetrable theatre - a mystery play - and to the discerning the liturgical practice of priestcraft and the medieval use of heavy wooden screens to hide the elements is putting the temple veil back in place - got o any Cathedral and ask to be shown the High Comunion Table - then ask why is there a heavy wooden screen (the temple veil in front) - sealing off the elements fromthe Congregation - that is another discussion -

Jesus said, "Do THIS in remembrance of Me" IOW "every year when you are celebrating Passover, DO IT

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This is Holy Comunion within Passover - Grace is in the Law concealed and the Law is through Grace revealed - Passover is an outward form and Communion the inner substance - there is nothing deeper than Holy Communion.

(the breaking of the bread and the drinking of the wine), in remembrance of me" It all points to his death and resurrection and our deliverance from the law of sin and death -

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our approach to remembrance ( anamnesis) an engagement of His real presence - where two or three are gathered togehterin my name, I am there among them - it is much more than anamnesis or an anamnetic action - there is nothing deeper than Communion - however, if you say Passover is the celebrtion of Communion - ok,I accept what you say - but then you are no longer practising ritual, law, symbol and tradition as remembrance, but real Communion with and in Him right now - there is nothing deeper than Communion.

With Love,

Mark

Quaffer

I have many Jewish co-workers who are non believers I have for this reason changed the way I do many things. . . or even whether I do them or not. I have NOT changed the gospel but I have changed me and the way I present the gospel.

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Amen. Amen. I am going to start crying - I can see your Heart in this - it is utterly beautiful.

I think the non believing Jew tends to view Christianity as the religion of Constantine and Hitler. Both men hated them and both men claimed their actions against the Torah following believers to be Christian.

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Both Constantine reserved his most imaginative tortures and executions for Christians - until he became aware that the Church triumphant and militant would sweep him away and his empire with him if he did not sign the Edict of Milan tolerating christianity - it was the Church who defeated Constantine - as Tertullian said - the Blood of the Martyrs are the seeds of the Church - however, i will say that in some way the blood of Jewish martyrs under Consantine in the defence of the Torah as the Living Word under Ruach Elohim -places them in the sight of the Lord with the glorious company of Christian Martyrs.

In dealing with Hitler - He hung Lutheran pastors - alive- from meat hooks - it takes hours to die when that happens for speaking out against Him and the Houlocast - there were also numerous Polish Catholic and Russian Orthodox Priests who met horrific ends on his direct instructions - he held the view that Neitzsche held about Jesus and consideed him to be a weakling - the same weakling who endured the Cross, crushed the head of satan and rose victorious and the Church with him - again the Holocaust in some deep way that only God can articulate is the blood of the martyrs - that cries out to his throne like the blood of Abel - I suspect there may be some major surprises and exciting revelations - when we see who is in the throng - that no man or woman can count - standing around the throne.

In NO WAY am I saying all or any Christians should change....just have understanding of what is and is not being said by your Messianic brothers and sisters who love and follow Jesus just as you do.

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I have discussed how I see Shimshon, Zayit and Zemirah - Shimshon is going to do something extraordinary, He is being stirred into action by Ruach Elohim ( the breath of God or the Holy Spirit).

With Love.

Mark

In NO WAY am I saying all or any Christians should change....just have understanding of what is and is not being said by your Messianic brothers and sisters who love and follow Jesus just as you do.

Jim M

I hold you to be one of the modern fathers of the Church - in your denomination - and you know that I hold you in great respect - so my approach to you is going to be to discuss the similarities between Constantine and Elizabeth 1 - they both had to contend with fairly fastmoving reformations in the Church - the Nicene engagement of the Arian Heresy was actually a deeper form of reformation - Elizabeth 1 could see two reformations in England - a Conservative Reformatio that wanted to reform the offices of the Church and a radical reformation that wanted to reform the Church itself - and forced a "middle way" settlement - effectively, Constantine through his Edict of Milan and his convenient toleration of Christianity and his apparent governance of the Council of Nicea was attempting to do the same for political ends.

Does that mean to say that the Bishop of Alexandria and the other bishops at the Council of Nicea and the Elizabethan Bishops and Puritan Reformed Pastors were all calculating machiavellian political stooges - look at the biographies of these men, their intense sufferings for the Gospel, their total and complete devotion to Christ in and through the witness of the Spirit - these men took part in these councils not because of Constantine and Elzabeth but despite them for God's greter purpose andd the defence of the Gospel - take us - why would we hold a credal alignment to a denomination - Anglicanism - where in America - they are ordaining homosexuals unlessby the will of God we are being called to drive the Canaanites out of the Church, remove the Philistines and "the uncircumcised" - we , the Evangelicals - are unfurling our banners and there are literally millions of Us in the Anglican Communion and we will purge and cleanse the Church and remove any Bishop responsible forpulling down the Crossin the presence of the Congregation and others - Godly men and women will take their places - and His hand is with us - there is aconfrontation coming - there must be to fulfill the book of Revelation - but if like Lot I am a prophetic witness in Sodom amd Gomorrah - then know this - I am on fire with the Gospel and the Gospel is going to consume everything in its path.

With Love.

Mark

Brian

the actual meaning of "Catholic"... it actually means universal, not united.

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Doctrines and denomiations exist in the minds of Human Beings but not in the Spirit - no, Jesus sees the Church - he does not see His clothes being divided up at the Cross - He is clothed in the Church AND IT IS A SEAMLESS GARMENT - when the temple veil was torn in two - he stood in the gap and replaced the veil and there are no divisions, no denominations and no doctrines in Him - only the Living Gospel and it is on fire.

Mark

Mark, amen, the Anglican church is currently undergoing purification by the Lord.

All of you here have my respect for your greater knowledge on the OP, so I'm not getting into all this, but I couldn't resist supporting that bit!

God bless you all, Susana

Bruce101

It really hard to evangelize the Jews because of traditions that we have taken on. Meanwhile, we are telling the Jews, who follow the Bible (the OT) very closely and still follow the Holy Days that God laid out, that they will burn in Hell forever. See the delemna?

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You are righteous and with you I will discuss what is the Lamp of the House of David, who holds it,the purpose for why they are holding it and to whom it must be given - do you know that the Lamp, the Light of the Nations, His natal star actually stopped above David's Fallen Tent and that is what Simeon saw in the Temple?

2 Chronicles 21:7

7 Nevertheless, because of the covenant the LORD had made with David, the LORD was not willing to destroy the house of David. He had promised to maintain a lamp for him and his descendants for ever.

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Psalm 132:17

I will cause the horn of David to spring forth;
I have prepared a lamp for Mine anointed.

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Now Ruach Elohim (the literal breath of God - the Holy Spirit ) when he breathes on the Torah it becomes alive - the Living Word in the hand of David - that star,the Gospel in His his Hand - His Sling Shot - with which we slay Giants - the Torah starts to shine with an inner life - it becomes a prophetic testament to the Gospel and Revelation 19:10 says that the Testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of Prophecy - the Torah as Law expressed through Grace is the Gospel- because it is expressed through hte Cross and the Light of the world hung on the Cross and the Cross is the Lamp in the House of David.

Ok- lets talk about the Torah as Living Words - those Living Stones being built on the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets and the Lord Jesus Christ who is the founding Cornerstone -

In orthodox Jewish thought words are held to be the building blocks of the universe - the Divine DNA - not the Living Word who fills everything through the Cross (which is a Messianic Jewish understanding) - but words. So even the letters of the Hebrew alphabet have power of and in themselves quite apart from the words they represent and comprise.

Now Messianic Jewish thought says that this is only a veiled understanding - a partial and confused understanding, because Isaiah 55:10, 11 says -

10 As the rain and the snow


come down from heaven,

and do not return to it

without watering the earth

and making it bud and flourish,

so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater,

11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:

It will not return to me empty,

but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.

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Not words - with no Life of their own - but His Living Word which fills the universe and testifies through the Cross to the Resurrection.

You see in Jewish thought when a person spoke a word, it was perceived to be a living thing - but it is not a Word of Life without His invested and sustaining presence.

Once out of the speaker's mouth it became distinct from that person. It had a life source of its own although still representing that person - but without HIM it has no sustaining power.

As an assumed living thing, it was thought that - that word would,ofit self, accomplish exactly what was said - Like sin,every word not spoken in and through HIM has no life, no power, no Life purpose and no weapon formed against us can prosper - these words will fallshort at our feet and we will stand on them - the Messianic Jewish Church will crush them under their feet in winning for the Lamb, the rewards of His sufferings.

So when God speaks - Ruach Elohim - His power is in what He says and it is He Himself in his words- let there be light - as the Living Word expressed as the Lamp of David, the Light of the World on the Cross - As John simply states -

John 1:1-5

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.
3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[a] it.

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Do you understand this?

When we choose words of Life and not Death- we arein Himamd speaking through Him - which is what it means to prophesy through and in everything that we are and express.

Now I bless you and into your hand I place the Lamp of the House of David to hold it high in the midst of the Nations until Him to whom it must be given and you will not put the Lamp down until He returns -

Psalm 119: 130a -

The unfolding of your words gives light

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Amen.

Mark

Echad

Welcome - you are here by the call and purpose of the Holy Spirit (Ruach Elohim) - now you are being called to stand up and witness to Him who holds the Stars in His hands - do not be afraid of them - His Hand is with you and you will overcome Giants and they will not be able to stand up to you or overcome you.

Mark

Mark,
I have read your blessing, and I am now in deep study of it. This is not superficial (the blessing) and I do not take it lightly. I appreciate your discernment and sensitivity to the Spirit.
God is good and taking me deeper into His call and purpose, which slowly unfolds and reveals itself to me a step at a time.

Bruce

wow lots of good info

So, Mark, are you saying -

1. Passover Lamb nailed to the door lintel to allow the Angel of Death to identify the Jewish households - while bringing death literally, but for a time only, to the Egyptians (to sin).

2. Jesus Lamb of God nailed to the wooden cross to allow all believers to be identified with Him - while death will come to all sin forever.

3. The Crossing of the Red Sea is figurative for the Jewish nation passing through the Blood into the Promised Land on earth.

4. The shedding of Jesus Blood over all believers allows us to pass through it into the Promised Land in Heaven.

Is it therefore that the act of Crucifixion of Jesus made all other remembrances of Passover, superceded?

With due respect, Quaffer, doesn't that mean that the Jewish people, who I believe are God's beloved, are worshipping a ritual that falls short of the true gift of Jesus Blood?

Mark Downham said:

Quaffer

Dear Heart - I will addrress you first -


In part - it is not a complete celebration - the resurrection is not in the Passover but in Crossing the Red Sea.




Yes. I have an informed understanding of their hermeneutical approach to the Passover - I have gone over the Passover again and again and again - you are not dealing with the catechumenate in your conversation with me - although the Passover is in effect a form of Catechesis as all prophetic symbols are - if you want to press this point I will strip down the entire passover to its biblical essentials and show you a number of added traditions - some of which are actually a form of soteriological hermeneutic and prophetic symblism - particularly in the separation of the Matzo(s) into three - sounds trinitarian to me - I could take this much deeper Quaffer and exegete every act, every symbol, every gesture, every word in the Passover - even the differences between the Orthodox Jewish approach to the Passover and the subtle changes of emphasis introduced by Messianic Jewish celebration - Quaffer, I love you and in some ways you have shone a light on my own potential for fiery dogma, inflexible doctrine and the break between judgement and mercy and the need for inclusiveness to triumph over exclusiveness - my direct maternal ancestor is Oliver Cromwell who allowed the Jews to return to England after they were expelled by Edward 1 - so when you talk to me you are talking to my Puritan roots and the Church militant and triumphant and nothing is going to stop us- not anything from winning for the Lamb the rewards of His sufferings - I am committed to everyone in this Forum - but no-one is going to pull down the Cross in front of us and try to bury it in tradition,symbol, ritual and law - the Cross is the Tree of Life and everything including the passover crosses over through the Cross - when they crossed over the Red Sea - they were symbolically crossing over through the Blood of the Cross - but on the other hand I would be the first to stand up and defend the right for our Messianic Jewish Brethren and Sisterine to celebrate the Passover in a redemptive and soteriological way and I would be even be prepared to be numbered with them for the sake of the Church which is the Blood of Jesus.



There is nothing deeper than Communion with Jesus expressed through Holy Communion - although thee way Liturgical Denominations have treated doctrine, liturgy and the celebration of Communion have turned it into an impenetrable theatre - a mystery play - and to the discerning the liturgical practice of priestcraft and the medieval use of heavy wooden screens to hide the elements is putting the temple veil back in place - got o any Cathedral and ask to be shown the High Comunion Table - then ask why is there a heavy wooden screen (the temple veil in front) - sealing off the elements fromthe Congregation - that is another discussion -



This is Holy Comunion within Passover - Grace is in the Law concealed and the Law is through Grace revealed - Passover is an outward form and Communion the inner substance - there is nothing deeper than Holy Communion.



our approach to remembrance ( anamnesis) an engagement of His real presence - where two or three are gathered togehterin my name, I am there among them - it is much more than anamnesis or an anamnetic action - there is nothing deeper than Communion - however, if you say Passover is the celebrtion of Communion - ok,I accept what you say - but then you are no longer practising ritual, law, symbol and tradition as remembrance, but real Communion with and in Him right now - there is nothing deeper than Communion.

With Love,

Mark

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Mark,

You have pretty much misunderstood everything I have said. I won't discuss this with you any further because you keep talking as if I am attacking Christianty and Jesus and the cross and communion. With each response there seems to be an added thing that I am accused of attacking. I'm sorry that I could not explain it so as you to understand that I am no against nor am I attacking anything you hold dear. I'm really sorry that you saw it that way.

sweetrevival said:

With due respect, Quaffer, doesn't that mean that the Jewish people, who I believe are God's beloved, are worshipping a ritual that falls short of the true gift of Jesus Blood?

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NO. The Jewish believer is worshiping Yeshua (Jesus) not a ritual. The ritual is a remembrance of what was done. Jesus, while sitting in the middle of a Passover dinner said, "when you do this" remember me. Out of that is where the non-Jewish believers came up with their ritual of the little cups of grape juice and a little cracker and they call it communion. The Jewish believer call's calls it Passover. The Jewish non-believer is only remembering the deliverance out of Egypt while the Jewish believer is not only remembering that but they are also remembering Jesus, as He Himself said to while partaking of the Passover dinner which is the "this" that Jesus was referring to.

It seems to me that the one's worshiping rituals are the one's who get all up in arms and start screaming offense when they think that their precious rituals are being attacked when in fact they are not.

I'm trying to point out that both sides (believers) are doing the same thing only coming from different directions. All believers are washed by the same blood...the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ...our Redeemer.

Quaffer said:

NO. The Jewish believer is worshiping Yeshua (Jesus) not a ritual. The ritual is a remembrance of what was done. Jesus, while sitting in the middle of a Passover dinner said, "when you do this" remember me. Out of that is where the non-Jewish believers came up with their ritual of the little cups of grape juice and a little cracker and they call it communion. The Jewish believer call's calls it Passover. The Jewish non-believer is only remembering the deliverance out of Egypt while the Jewish believer is not only remembering that but they are also remembering Jesus, as He Himself said to while partaking of the Passover dinner which is the "this" that Jesus was referring to.

It seems to me that the one's worshiping rituals are the one's who get all up in arms and start screaming offense when they think that their precious rituals are being attacked when in fact they are not.

I'm trying to point out that both sides (believers) are doing the same thing only coming from different directions. All believers are washed by the same blood...the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ...our Redeemer.

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Thank you Quaffer, I do understand it more clearly now. I have had little to do with the Jewish faith, but I trust that you will believe me when I tell you that I would not disparage your beliefs. I know that they were the basis of God's teaching in this world and as such command respect. I just needed to know where they went from there. I believe that God would have us Christians develop closer bonds with our Jewish brotherhood as we become His chosen people along with those who hold the Messianic faith.

It is not for nothing, we have you a Jewish Messianic believer both on this forum and as our moderator, so God has a plan for us all! Hallelujah! God bless you.