Futurists vs Preterists

Originally posted by aChristian
So, in your opinion, the thousand year reign of Christ has been going on for nearly 2,000 years? I agree Christ began ruling over his church nearly 2,000 yaers ago. But most understand Christ's 1,000 year reign to be a time when His rule is extended over all the earth.

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Hi brother. The thousand year reign of Christ really began at Pentecost with the out pouring of the Holy Spirit. Because of the cross and resurrection Christ had abolished death-separation from God. This is specifically what John is showing in his "Millennium Episode." The souls of them that were under the alter (Chapter 6) are seen reigning with Christ (chapter 20. Their reigning in chapter 20 is set over against their "under the alter" status in chapter 6.

These saints who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus were reigning with him, unlike the saints like Moses, Abraham, David etc. Who had died before the cross and resurrection of Christ. Paul said, "it is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him." (2 Tim. 2:11) The (we) here are the first century saints. This answers to the souls under the altar symbol in Revelation 6. That framework of history from Pentecost to A.D.70 is the time when the life of the saints was "hid with God in Christ" (Col. 3:3) The same is true concerning their particpation in the reigh of Christ during the time of their suffering with Him.

Originally posted by Debbie
I think it was helpful to newcomers, for Rolling Thunder to explain preterism to newcomers.

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I'm sorry, but the notion of Thunder being able, or in any way qualified, to explain preterism to anyone, after only learning of the preterist view about a month ago, is something akin to an auto mechanic claiming he was able to adaquately explain everything there is to know about oceanography after reading an article about it in national geographic.

It took me over two years of questioning, challenging, study, and prayer to get to the point I am today, comfortable enough to attempt to explain preterism as I understand it, and by no means do I know all there is to know about it.

I was a futurist for 18 years however, so I can say with confidence that I KNOW far more about why futurists believe what they do, than You Debbie, or Thunder, or most futurists, know about why preterists believe what we do.

The notion that you can discount another Christian position without even attempting to study it, to me, would be laughable , if it weren't so sad

Bon Voyage, I hope you find the comfort and security you need, insulated by only those who agree with you.

YBIC,
P70

Thanks, Debbie and Did, for your comments. Even though you do not agree with our views, I do appreciate the fact that you are trying to understand them. The preterist view however does not rest on the "this generation" phrase in Matthew 24, but it is a part. Even without it we believe that the preterist understanding of Matthew 24 can be fully defended from every other verse in the Chapter. But again, I do thank you for your attempt to understand us at least! That's all I ask.

Good stuff, Mani and GW.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

That's because the O.T. prophets used identical language to describe Yahweh's judgments on kings and nations of their day -- (see Isa 13:10 -- read all of Isa 13 about destruction of O.T. Babylon; see Is 34:4-5 about judgment on Edom 703BC; see Nahum chapter 1 about destruction of Ninevah; see 2 Sam 22:8-16 about destruction of Saul's Kingdom; see Zephaniah 1 about destruction of O.T. Edom in the Persian era)

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Thats true GW and makes it a very interesting argument but maybe you could tell me how it is that straight after this verse of so called symbolic happening, the next verse says,

"30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

I can see that 31 could mean symbolicly that the apostles will gather the elect from the world.

BUT


GW , v 30 , how was jesus return symbolic in 70 ad because it says that the whole world will mourn at his return and they will see his return but the truth is the world didn`t even flinch when jeruselum was destroyed , accept for a few anti-semetics.

do you believe that jesus retuned around 70 AD???

Peter tells us precisely WHEN Joel's prophecy about the last days came to pass. To say otherwise is to make Peter a false teacher.

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True but alot believe we are still be in the last days.

also , I notice that when prophets use symbolic terms they almost always give the litral meaning with it. I.E. the 7 heads are seven hills were the woman sits.

daniel does the same so I figure that they want it revieled not hidden in symbolicness that can end in anything you like even though it makes heaps of sense.

something else I see;

considering angel means messanger and the apostles were mesangers , look at this.

31 And he shall send his angels (messangers , apostles) with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

this did all happen in the 1st century.

that makes perfict sense to me , or am I blind

millions would say so, fantisy is always more injoyable to believe than the boring truth.

so it seems.

is that how you see that scripture GW???

but what of verse 30???

Originally posted by jeopardy_chaos
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

.....how was jesus return symbolic in 70 ad because it says that the whole world will mourn at his return and they will see his return but the truth is the world didn`t even flinch when jeruselum was destroyed , accept for a few anti-semetics.

but what of verse 30???

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Mind if I interject?

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in Heaven"

Notice what, or rather who is "in heaven?

It is not the sign, but the son of man. The Destruction of the temple was the earthly "sign" that the Jesus was in fact the Son of Man and he was in fact "in heaven".

It was also, at the same time "seen" or "understood" that it was He who rode the cloud of Judgement into Jerusalem, on time, as promised, within the a generation, shortly after it was predicted, and all the Tribes (Jews) of the earth (Land) indeed mourned.

The same way God was "seen" by "eyes" doing this and that all throughout the OT, Jesus was indeed "seen" to carry out the Judgement against apostate Israel, forever removing them as His covenant people, taking the inheritance from them and Giving it to a nation (Church) who would bear the fruits thereof.

YBIC,
P70

Right on, Parousia - you hit the nail on the proverbial head! Preterism is something you just don't fall into or accept on a whim. Almost every Preterist in the world was once a die-hard futurist, as die hard as anyone this forum. I used to stand against preterism on discussion forums, myself. It takes a great deal of time, prayer, and study - because we want to make sure it is true.

Think about this folks; accepting Preterism (especially full-preterism) can lead to...
- marital strife between Christian spouses.
- strife between extended family.
- strained friendships within the Church Body.
- disfellowship or excommunication from Churches.
- charges of heresy.
- ridicule and even hatred.

Who in their right mind chooses to embrace such hardship just so that they can believe some new, wacky "cutting-edge" eschatology? Certainly not me, and certainly not any preterist on this forum. Far from escaping the "Great Tribulation", accepting preterism actually brings certain forms of hardship and discomfort into one's life, especially in the beginning.

I'm with you, Parousia, I'm still learning myself. Preterism is hardly what many here think it is.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

Hey guys,

Messenger, I'd like to read your post if you find it. Post the link if you do. I haven't read up on the JW's yet, so I guess that's one of my next projects. Mormonism also has a dispensation-like eschatology, but not quite the same. Yeah, Hoon, that Moon fellow has some problems, don't he?

By the way, Messenger, I see you are in Israel. It's a terrible situation there, and I hope you are in no danger.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

Originally posted by The Messenger
hiya hoonbaba.

it is a reference to the Trinity i think. a few verses down we see the LORD having a conversation with "himself(ves)".

Genesis3:17-19
The LORD said, "Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do, seeing that Abraham shall become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall bless themselves by him? No, for I have chosen him, that he may charge his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing righteousness and justice; so that the LORD may bring to Abraham what he has promised him."

thought provoking eh?

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Whoa...that's interesting! Could it simply be God just asking a rhetorical question and him answering it rather than 3 persons? Anyway I particularly like how scripture says, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness" (Genesis 1:26)

=)

-Jason

Originally posted by parousia70

I'm sorry, but the notion of Thunder being able, or in any way qualified, to explain preterism to anyone, after only learning of the preterist view about a month ago, is something akin to an auto mechanic claiming he was able to adaquately explain everything there is to know about oceanography after reading an article about it in national geographic.
YBIC,
P70

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This thread was intended for newcomers, but it is infested with preterists. You are only proving my point more and more. You will be known by your fruit, not by your defense of what you believe or any excuses. This thread is a heads-up for newcomers, so they might be aware of the possibility of having their faith attacked by preterists. This is NOT a staging ground for preterists to defend their beliefs. You can start another thread for that. Again, you will be known by the fruit you produce, and nothing else.

This thread was not designed so I could teach all the beliefs that preterists cling to. I am not claiming to be an expert in your beliefs, nor would I want to be. I merely exposed just a few things that preterists believe, but only to show the newcomers what they might expect to run into.

Originally posted by aChristian


What do you believe the future holds? Will this world go on as it is forever? Or will Christianity eventually conquer the world with its good ushering in an era of true peace?

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Now these are very good questions. One of the best things the future holds to us is when we die we will never ever again be separated from the presence of God unlike the saints who were born and died under the Old Covenant. And that is good new.

Under the Old Covenant the righteous dead were in the place of the dead Sheol,or Hades. They were not in torment as were the wicked, but they were not in the presence of God, either. For death-separation to be destroyed, the sin question must be completely resolved. Jesus on the cross began the redemptive process, it did not complete it. so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many (Hebrews 9:28)

As we now know it took the second coming of Chist to bring in compleat salvation. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin for salvation (Hebrews 9:28)

The Bible does say the world will go on forever. (Genesis 8:21-22) (Psalms 78:69; 93:1; 96:10; 104:5; 119:90;Isaiah 45:17 ;Ephesians 3:21 unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages world without end Amen. A World that is without end cannot have "last days."

Will Christianity eventually conquer the world. The Church is still really in a very early state. It is only 2.000 ect. years. God commaned the covenant which He made with Abraham and we now injoy for a thousand generations.(Psalm 105) So according to scripture the Church is still a baby.

I believe as we fully understand what Christ has done for us we will change the world we live in.

Originally posted by jeopardy_chaos
"30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

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The sign of the son of man in heaven was the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. The reference to "all the tribes of the land shall mourn" is the jewish tribes and is an allusion to Zechariah 12:10-14, a local judgment upon Jerusalem.

The gathering of all from one end OF HEAVEN TO THE OTHER (Mark's Gospel says "uttermost part of earth to the uttermost part of heaven) simply speaks of the following single promise coming true: John 11:52, John 10:16; Eph 1:10; Luke 13:28-29/Matt 8:10-11. The "gathering" language Jesus uses comes from Deut 30:3-4 and how Jehovah gathered unto himself his scattered Israelites whom were exiled due from disobedience but were later re-collected into the covenant blessings. This language was used OFTEN for Yahweh's returning His People to covenant blessings in O.T. times (see also Isaiah 11:12; 27:12-13). Jesus had sent his messengers to set up the creation of the one new Nation of jews and gentiles together and once they were purified He consumated them in Himself as an established, eternal Covenant Nation (like when Joshua entered the promised land after the 40 years). So also does Jesus repeat the language since now it is HE that is acting as ONE with the Father Jehovah and in the Father's glory (Matt 16:27).

Originally posted by jeopardy_chaos
GW , v 30 , how was jesus return symbolic in 70 ad because it says that the whole world will mourn at his return and they will see his return but the truth is the world didn`t even flinch when jeruselum was destroyed

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The tribes [gr. phule] of the land [ge] = the jewish tribes of the land of Israel.

Originally posted by jeopardy_chaos
do you believe that jesus retuned around 70 AD???

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Without a doubt. Why? Because this return was to be a coming in judgment as a Day of the Lord and with clouds just as Yahweh was known to do it (Isa 19:1-2; 2 Sam 22:8-16). Anyone who knows the O.T. knows that the "Day of the Lord" (Day of Yahweh) happened many times in historic comings of Jehovah (for example: Zeph 1:1-7; Isa 13; Isa 19:1-2 etc). After the crucifixion Jesus was glorified back to the Father's glory that He had prior to the beginning of the world (John 17:5) -- which is HOW he would come at his return (Matt 16:27). Many times in the N.T. the second coming is called the "Day of the Lord." AD 70 was, in fact, the greatest of God's comings as the Day of the Lord in Israel's history.

Originally posted by jeopardy_chaos
True but alot believe we are still be in the last days.

also , I notice that when prophets use symbolic terms they almost always give the litral meaning with it. I.E. the 7 heads are seven hills were the woman sits.

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First, if the "last days" just means "thousands of years" generically then the whole phrase has no meaning in and of itself. Rather, the phrase was understood to signify the end of some age -- namely, the Mosaic Age. The O.T. prophets all looked forward to the time of Messiah which was to end the Age of Moses as Law giver (Acts 3:22-24). Matthew 24:3's "end of the age" was spoken during the Mosaic Age even before Jesus had announced the New Covenant. So the phrase "the Last Days" means the Last Days of the Old Covenant Age -- AD 30 to AD 70.

As to the prophets always explaining their symbolism, that's not really accurate. Only occasionally do they give a clarification.

Originally posted by Manifestation1*AD70


The Bible does say the world will go on forever.

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2 Peter chapter 3 says the world will be destroyed by fire. Christ will create a new world as told in Revelation chapter 21.

Will Christianity eventually conquer the world. The Church is still really in a very early state. It is only 2.000 ect. years. God commaned the covenant which He made with Abraham and we now injoy for a thousand generations.(Psalm 105) So according to scripture the Church is still a baby.

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Christianity will never conquer the world.

Jesus said in Luke 18:8:

"Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?”

A world conquered by Christianity would not fit with what Christ said in that verse.

God Bless

Thunder, this post was intended for newcomers. But if you post misleading, or just plain wrong information about preterists then you better believe we are going to respond and correct your misconceptions. If you had written this post to explain the correct teachings of preterism and explained the differences between futurism and preterism, then you probably wouldn't hear anything from us.

Instead, you create a self-fulfilling prophecy by posting half-truths and down-right falsehoods about what we believe, equating us with "deceivers", and then you have the nerve to think that we wouldn't come and correct your misconceptions.

- In your first post you inform newcomers that we "believe end times don't even exist". That is either a lie or a misconception on your part, but either way you are posting false information.

- In your first post you inform newcomers we believe "ALL prophecy in the entire Bible has already been fulfilled". That is either a lie or a misconception on your part, but either way you are posting false information. Full-preterists believe that all end-time prophecy has been fulfilled, while biblical prophecy continues to manifest in the Church now and into the future. Partial preterists do not believe that all end-time prophecy has been fulfilled.

- In your first post you inform newcomers we have " lack of faith in our Lord's promised return for us. Dead wrong. That is a lie, and you posted false information. Just sensationalistic nonesense.

- In your first post you inform newcomers that you call into question our "faith" and say it's "not what the Bible commands". Another lie. And if you think you can question my faith in front of newcomers and if you think I will not respond to such falsehood then you've got another thing coming, bub.

- Lastly, in your first post you throw a scripture into the mix for added effect that equates preterists with "scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires" Again, if you think that you can equate me or any other preterist with "ungodly scoffers", and expect us not to respond because your just trying to "inform" newcomers with false information, then you've got another thing coming. It's an unintentional "bait 'n hook"; you don't want us to respond, but yet you write in such a way that we have no choice but to respond and correct you.

You don't want us to "invade" your thread, but yet you slander us and mislead posters with false information. Here's a helpful hint for you, Thunder: if you want to post "helpful" info about us, make sure it is accurate (which yours was not), and don't slander us. If you refuse to do this then you are creating your own self-fulfilling prophecy, and we will respond. We're not asking you to be an expert. Just get the facts right - and not the "sensational" version.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

Hi Catchup,
I'm with you brother. I don't believe that they will be able to steal sheep from the Lords sheep pen. Because the sheep that belong to Him, they know His voice. I am not concerned about the "elect" being deceived. Those that fall for their false teachings were never really His sheep. Jesus knows His sheep, and His sheep know their Master. But it is a shame that this board has to get so nasty and mean. I believe that a Forum of arguing and ugliness is not a very good witness. Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather. Fear not, stand up and be counted. Whatever happens here will not be our end. We have no end, even if this Forum does.

Thunder,

Did you read and understand my #114 post? Do you understand that if you post false and misleading information we will respond and correct those mistakes. If you post accurate info for newcomers then there is no problem. If you do not, you are creating your own self-fulfilling propecy. You are creating the "ugliness" on this forum when you post false or misleading information.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

Hello John,
I see what you mean by combining all threads that turn into a preterist/futurist war, but have you considered what might happen next?? Most of the threads will all be rolled into one, or at least all the ones that talk about prophecy and end times. This could turn into a New World Record. The worlds longest thread on a Christian Forum. YIKES

Originally posted by Acts6:5
Hey guys,

Messenger, I'd like to read your post if you find it. Post the link if you do. I haven't read up on the JW's yet, so I guess that's one of my next projects. Mormonism also has a dispensation-like eschatology, but not quite the same. Yeah, Hoon, that Moon fellow has some problems, don't he?

By the way, Messenger, I see you are in Israel. It's a terrible situation there, and I hope you are in no danger.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

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hiya Acts, actually i am in Texas...but i would rather be in Israel.

Is there a way we can distinuish one thread from another. A new poster here asked a question and I wanted to get back to them but now I can't find the thread out of 58 pages. World's longest thread, indeed.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

Messenger,

You're a funny guy!

In Christ,

Acts6:5

Originally posted by rollinTHUNDER
Hello John,
I see what you mean by combining all threads that turn into a preterist/futurist war, but have you considered what might happen next?? Most of the threads will all be rolled into one, or at least all the ones that talk about prophecy and end times. This could turn into a New World Record. The worlds longest thread on a Christian Forum. YIKES

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Perhaps members will think twice about starting a new thread before looking to see if that discussion is already in progress.

If you have any further comments, please feel free to send me a private message.

John