Outside the Church, there is no salvation.

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Orthosdoxa

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If I could ask a favor of anyone who wanted to post things for the benefit of others (which should be the only reason we post things such as this), I would ask they post directly from the writings of the saints (or other holy men and women of God even if they haven't been officially recognized as saints, such as Fr. Schmemann). There are thousands and thousands of volumes written by glorified men and women of God. We laypeople have no reason to write new volumes, not when we all have so much to learn. :) (esp. me...)

For a while, at different functions, Father had been reading us the writings of St. Innokenty, and they literally blew me away - the kind of stuff that was so good it makes your brain hurt. When I get my lazy tail around to it, I think I might post some of those up here)
 
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Hoonbaba

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I also found this post a bit disturbing to read, particularly because of the way it was worded.

Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholocism can be said to be entirely different religions.

I'd have to disagree with you here. That statement sounds as if Orthodoxy is so different Catholicism as if it's as different as Hinduism.

Do catholics and orthodox disagree on 99% of the Nicene Creed? Rather we disagree on the phrase filioque. Now we can go on and on about what it implies, but that's besides the point: Because the rest of the entire creed is left in tact.

In fact we have a common sacred text: The Holy Bible, including the deuterocanonicals. We also have Tradition, which explains the Catholic/Orthodox practice of venerating saints among many other things. We have the same Early Church Fathers. We also have liturgy (though not the same), where the first half focuses on the scripture readings, psalms, and the like, while the second half focuses on the Eucharist. Both East and West understand their worship as experiencing the heavenly realm.

We also believe in the sacraments, as well as the communion of the saints. Sure we have different calendars (gregorian, julian, etc), but we also do retain feast days, as well as Advent, Easter (Pascha), etc. We also have different fasting laws, but the fact remains: we both have fasting laws. We have different chanting, but the Western style is gregorian, while the Eastern counterpart is byzantine. We also have monastics though understood differently. We also have the sign of the cross (though done differently). We also regard Mary as theotokos. I was even surprised to learn from an Orthodox priest that the Virgin Mother is regarded as a mediator, similar to what Catholics claim. The East has icons, we've got statues. The general principle is the same: Neither are worshipped, rather the prototype is what matters. Of course icons have a much deeper and richer significance (which I'm fully aware of), and I love those icons, but arguing about statues vs. icons is not my point (i'm not too big of a fan of statues anyway). We also have many of the same saints as well as the priesthood, diaconate, and the bishopric.

Sure we have differences, but they don't give me the impression that we are in different religions altogether. The differences seem to be more so on regional/cultural developments.

Perhaps more significantly, both east and west have the same first seven ecumenical councils, which focus on Christology, the Trinity, the Incarnation, which are at the root of all that we believe and practice.

I'm sure many of us can go on and on about what kind of things we have in practice. So, to suggest that Catholicism and Orthodoxy are different religions seems a bit farfetched. Of course many here would claim that the Catholic Church is heretical, or that none of the councils after the 7th council is invalid, or whatever, but I see more in common than differences.

Additionally, I don't think I'll continue coming by here if I read more 'Catholic Church is wrong' statements. Much of the attitude I see here doesn't reflect charity, or perhaps it's simply the way the posts are all worded.

-Jason
 
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Abiel

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I have read the whole thread. Whilst I was shocked by the kick off, I have to commend you for the way you all handled the situation. Your passionate concern and loving suuport for your brother oozes through your posts, and your humilty is very apparant. This Salvationist is mightily impressed.
 
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xenia

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Hi Abiel,

Thank you for being so tender-hearted towards us sinful old Orthodox. :)

Most of us here are converts and we are just so tickled with our beloved Church that sometimes we get a little carried away, unable to resist pointing out just how different we are from everyone else. I run through spells like this myself in Real Life when some harmless Evangelical, trying to be charitable, will say that our churches are basically the same and I have (God forgive me) gone off on a tirade about "No NO NO the Orthodox Chruch is QUITE DIFFERENT from your church, O let me count the ways!"

Lord have mercy on me a sinner.

God bless you Abiel!

Love, Xenia
 
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jameseb

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Esran said:
My post was not made with pride, nor with vanity. I shy from those things. It's just that I've been very hurt in OBOB by the countless threads that belittle our faith and reduce it to nothing more than a renegade Catholocism.


Let me first say that I agree with some of the critiques of your post. There were some things I disagreed with (ie., the two churches amounting to two different religions). On the other hand, I agree completely with you here:

So, does this mean we should unite with the Roman Catholics? No. Does this mean we should tell them it's all okay, because they will be saved too? No. Does this give us a right to proclaim universal salvation? Absolutely not! We don't even have the right to tell each other inside the Orthodox Church that we have certain salvation, because we don't. Some people who are born into the Orthodox Church and take the Sacraments will not see the gates of heaven, and some Protestants will. In the end, it is the condition of a man's heart that causes God to have mercy on him, save him, and grant him life eternal.

Secondly, I understand the frustration and hurt you expressed in the first quote. Yesterday I visited OBOB for the first time in probably six months.... and shortly after perusing a thread I suddenly remembered why I'd stayed away. Some of the things said about our Church, brothers and sisters really offended me and even made me angry. I suddenly found myself in a "us against them" mentality that left me feeling very bitter. It took a few hours to shake that feeling and to get over a few things I'd read there (and I must say I thank the OBOB member who joined me in engaging in some light, off-topic candor that humbly reminded me how petty arguing with one another really can be). Perhaps its best just to avoid some of the threads discussing Orthodoxy in the OBOB forum, just as I'm sure there are members there avoiding similar threads in our own forum. Its not that some people even have an intent to offend... its just that some of us feel very passionate about certain issues and thus our differences are exasperated by this.

What I'm trying to say is that I understand your hurt and frustration...and I totally understand how that can seep into one's words and heart. I think Alfred was a bit harsh in his response to you as well. I honestly don't believe you feel our RC brothers and sisters are of a different religion... particularly given that last quote I took from your post. I just think some of that hurt you felt seeped into your words.... and I just thought it worth mentioning as I don't think some people saw that.
 
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stillerfan

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xenia said:
I run through spells like this myself in Real Life when some harmless Evangelical, trying to be charitable, will say that our churches are basically the same and I have (God forgive me) gone off on a tirade about "No NO NO the Orthodox Chruch is QUITE DIFFERENT from your church, O let me count the ways!"

oh, i have been there done that as well...... :blush: :doh: ^_^
 
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Iacobus

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jameseb said:
Secondly, I understand the frustration and hurt you expressed in the first quote. Yesterday I visited OBOB for the first time in probably six months.... and shortly after perusing a thread I suddenly remembered why I'd stayed away. Some of the things said about our Church, brothers and sisters really offended me and even made me angry. I suddenly found myself in a "us against them" mentality that left me feeling very bitter. It took a few hours to shake that feeling and to get over a few things I'd read there (and I must say I thank the OBOB member who joined me in engaging in some light, off-topic candor that humbly reminded me how petty arguing with one another really can be). Perhaps its best just to avoid some of the threads discussing Orthodoxy in the OBOB forum, just as I'm sure there are members there avoiding similar threads in our own forum. Its not that some people even have an intent to offend... its just that some of us feel very passionate about certain issues and thus our differences are exasperated by this.

What I'm trying to say is that I understand your hurt and frustration...and I totally understand how that can seep into one's words and heart. I think Alfred was a bit harsh in his response to you as well. I honestly don't believe you feel our RC brothers and sisters are of a different religion... particularly given that last quote I took from your post. I just think some of that hurt you felt seeped into your words.... and I just thought it worth mentioning as I don't think some people saw that.

You are very right, Jameseb. I had the same experience over the last few days. OBOB is no place for anybody to go if they aren't prepared to be attacked and belittled. Only the strong should bother. The rest of us, like myself, should just hang out here.
 
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SaintGeorge

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Thanks James D. It's really nice to have a person like you around. I've heard about you some, but I must admitt that this is the first time I've actually seen you. I think I know why I was acting unreasonable yesterday as well. True, OBOB had something to do with it. I think it also has something to do with the fact that I now have a 102 degree fever.
 
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Fotina

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jameseb said:
What I'm trying to say is that I understand your hurt and frustration...and I totally understand how that can seep into one's words and heart. I think Alfred was a bit harsh in his response to you as well. I honestly don't believe you feel our RC brothers and sisters are of a different religion... particularly given that last quote I took from your post. I just think some of that hurt you felt seeped into your words.... and I just thought it worth mentioning as I don't think some people saw that.

Thanks for your kind response. This thread has disturbed me. I'd ask everyone to keep in mind that Esran is new to the faith. His parents are not Orthodox, yet he is pursuing Orthodoxy on his own with great zeal, and...he's only 17.

Instruction and correction from other older brothers and fathers in the faith is good. But what some gave was unduly harsh and hurtful, not the way you'd talk to your own younger brother or 17 year old son. It hurt me for Esran to be beatup that way.

I'm sorry Esran.

Fotina
 
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jameseb

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Iacobus said:
You are very right, Jameseb. I had the same experience over the last few days. OBOB is no place for anybody to go if they aren't prepared to be attacked and belittled. Only the strong should bother. The rest of us, like myself, should just hang out here.


Thank you, Iacobus. However, I just want to clarify that my frustration with certain topics (critical of the the Orthodox Church and its servants) discussed at OBOB doesn't mean I'm frustrated with OBOB. If I insinuated that, my apologies. When I visit that forum I naturally gravitate to the discussions on the Orthodox Church and that's my problem usually. ;) Having said that, I don't believe the vast majority there have the intent to disparage us. Unfortunately, some do and that's what grinds my nerves at times. :sorry: Granted, there are times when things said here would offend our Roman Catholic brothers and sisters. I refer to my comments above about colliding passions. :)


Esran said:
Thanks James D. It's really nice to have a person like you around. I've heard about you some, but I must admitt that this is the first time I've actually seen you. I think I know why I was acting unreasonable yesterday as well. True, OBOB had something to do with it. I think it also has something to do with the fact that I now have a 102 degree fever.


Ack! :eek: You best get off the puter and get yourself in bed, my friend! Thank you for your kind words and believe me... I understand how feeling hurt, particularly coupled with feeling ill, can effect a person's mood. We're all human after all. :)

By the way, its a pleasure to meet you as i don't believe we've interacted before either. :) Now go rest, get well and we'll be praying for your speedy recovery! :)
 
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jameseb

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Fotina said:
I'd ask everyone to keep in mind that Esran is new to the faith. His parents are not Orthodox, yet he is pursuing Orthodoxy on his own with great zeal, and...he's only 17.

Indeed, and I'm both very humbled by and impressed with his fervent love for our Faith.

And, Fotina... I don't believe we've ever met either so Greetings and Salutations to you as well... Its a pleasure to meet you. :)
 
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