So the wife is converting to Orthodoxy

mbkndomer · Feb 10, 2005

And, of course, I have a few questions. For what it's worth, I'm a lifelong Catholic. She has been a lifelong Protestant.

I've read a lot of the Early Fathers and a bit of Orthodox stuff on the web (which I have found to be very inaccurate for the most part). I've been to Greek and Antiochean liturgies. That's pretty much my exposure thus far. So be gentle . . .

Anyways, here goes:

1. What is the Orthodox view of the Council of Florence?

2. Is the Orthodox/Catholic split over Original Sin the result of ascribing a "hard" Augustinian view to Catholics (that we bear some sort of personal culpability for Adam's sin)?

3. Do the Orthodox view Mary as sinless (in life, I know there are differences on the Immaculate Conception)? I'm aware that a few of the Fathers saw her actions at Cana to be sin, but they are in the minority. Does the Eastern Church have an official position on this?

4. Is it Ok for me to venerate the icons in front? Being Catholic, I have no problem with it, but I've gotten the impression from folks there that I shouldn't be.

5. How did Sts. Chrysostom and Basil's liturgies become the "official" liturgies of the Eastern Church?

6. What is the current Orthodox view on the Pope? Is he still the Patriarch of the West? Or is the position considered vacant, as sedevacantists would claim?

7. Do you feel that a full Ecumenical Council could heal the schism? If the Pope called one, would the Eastern Church attend? This sort of feeds into question 6 as to what the Pope's status is in the East.

I've got some more, but I'll hold off for a while on those. It's been great to attend the Eastern liturgies and I'm very happy with my wife's decision. Thank you in advance for your responses.

gzt · Feb 10, 2005

1. Rejected as a false council, as it was in its own time.
2. That's pretty much how it seems. There are some more subtle things going on, perhaps, but I'm don't have much of an aptitude for philosophical subtlety.
3. Yes, the Virgin Mary was sinless. I don't know whether such was ever proclaimed at a council, but anybody who denies it these days would be thrown out on the street.
4. Yes, by all means, do so [unless nobody else in the whole church is, in which case it'd be awkward].
5. I really don't know.
6. I don't think we consider him the Patriarch of Rome and I also don't think we believe there's a position left to be vacant. If we ever put a bishop in Rome, that bishop would be the real and legitimate Bishop of Rome in our eyes, I suppose, and until then there is no Bishop of Rome or a seat there for a bishop to occupy. I may be wrong about that.
7. Only an Ecumenical Council could heal the schism.

I don't know much, but I hope that's helpful.

Rilian · Feb 10, 2005

mbkndomer said:
1. What is the Orthodox view of the Council of Florence?

Personally, a tragedy and a real low point in the history of the relations between the East and West. Here's a Catholic perspective which I think I would pretty much agree with.

Wiffey · Feb 10, 2005

We believe in the Sacraments and in the real presence of Christ in Holy Communion. We believe in the sinlessness and ever-virginity of the Blessed Mother, who we call the Theotokos (God-bearer/mother of God).

We have Apostolic Succession.

We fast alot, abstaining from meat, dairy, wine and oil on Fridays, Wednesdays and all fast periods (all of Lent, 40 days before the Nativity, etc.)

It is perfectly fine for you to venerate as many icons as you wish. Communion is for Orthodox only, but the blessed bread (blessed, not consecrated) that is given out after Liturgy is for all Christians.

As for the Orthodox attitude re: Catholicism, you will find a range of opinion among any group of Orthodox folks. Some hardliners are concerned because they believe that the Catholic Church has an agenda to convert the Orthodox or to swallow up the Orthodox Church. Others feel strongly about reaching out to heal the broken relationships of the past. Most are somewhere in between these two positions.

So... would we be excited to have a joint council to work on fixing the Schism? Some would say "No!" and run for the hills. Others would cautiously attend the meeting. Some would be happy about it, but they would probably be the smallest camp of all.

What's my opinion? Look at my signature...

Hoonbaba · Feb 11, 2005

Interesting. Did your wife ever consider the Byzantine Catholic parishes? Their worship and traditions are virtually the same. I have a real love for the Divine liturgy, and I myself will likely switch rites as a result of visiting an Orthodox parish.

And if I had to voice my concern, it has to do with religious/spiritual solidarity. In other words, this could obviously spill into children: Will they go to mom or dad's parish? Will half go one way, and the other half go the other way?

Ultimately here's what I see: one of the parents and some of the children will be something missing. So if she will turn Orthodox, perhaps it's a good idea to join her. Or if you don't want to leave the Catholic Church, she can become Byzantine Catholic.

Just a thought

-Jason

prodromos · Feb 11, 2005

Rilian said:
Here's a Catholic perspective which I think I would pretty much agree with.

I can agree with some of the sentiments expressed, but it leaves an awful lot out. The council dragged on for six years and in the end the Orthodox bishops were placed under house arrest and fed meagre rations until they agreed to the terms. Patriarch Joseph died before the conclusion of the council and it was later claimed that he had written a statement before dying which agreed to the Latin's terms. There is no record of the document at the time of his death though, and its contents are completely contrary to the sentiments expressed by the same not a few days before his death.
The Council of Florence

"There is no doubt whatever that Patriarch Joseph did not write this document. The German scholar Frommann, who made a detailed investigation of the "Testament" of Patriarch Joseph, says: "This document is so Latinized and corresponds so little to the opinion expressed by the Patriarch several days before, that its spuriousness is evident." The ''Testament" appears in the history of the Council of Florence quite late; contemporaries of the Council knew nothing of it."

John.

Rilian · Feb 11, 2005

Hoonbaba said:
Did your wife ever consider the Byzantine Catholic parishes? Their worship and traditions are virtually the same.

My priest has a saying about the Byzantine Catholics.

They look Orthodox.
They smell Orthodox.
They are not Orthodox.

Yes, they have kept things like the liturgy and vestments, but their theology is not Orthodox. That is the important part.

The Virginian · Feb 11, 2005

When first written the liturgy of St. Basil was immediateky received with great acclaim. St Chrysostom later added some prayers-litanies- of his own. And just as in the case of the liturgy of St. Basil, the elognated form of St. Chrysostom's liturgy became well used. The problem was with the way liturgies were said. The celebrant was usually in a vast cathedral, belting out the litanies at the top of his voice so as to be heard. You guessed it , by the end of the Divine Liturgy the priest was usually quite hoarse. The remedy was to only make the end of the litanies audible, as the priest celebrated the Eucharist from the "Ambon", a raised platform in the very middle of the of the church.
It's in this way that the liturgy of St. Chrysostom became the standard Divine Liturgy for celebrating the Holy Eucharist. The liturgy of St. Basil then was relegated for use on special feast and commerations of the Church year.
A little indication on how the Orthodox view the R.C. Pope: The Orthodox are not in communion with the Roman Catholics, meaning that we believe that they are part of the Church, but with whom we cannot fellowship because of some unacceptable
doctrines. The Pope sits in the See of Rome as the legitimate Bishop there.

An "Ecumenical Council" is not an Orthodox magic bullet; for truly if one could heal the schism between East and West, then there would not be the present rift between Eastern Orthodox and the Coptic Church. It could happen; however, the definitive word on faith and practice was often not reached with just one "Ecumenical Counci"l. The problem often stretched over hundreds of years.

asaus

NewToLife · Feb 11, 2005

No, you are 100% wrong here.

The pope is a teacher of heresy and has no place in the Orthodox Church. He is NOT a 'legitimate bishop'. Roman Catholics are NOT members of the Orthodox Church, and that includes 'Byzantine' Roman Catholics.

I have to second this, and as a request would ask that people stop making these kinds of statements regarding Catholicism, they demand correction and those corrections only feed Catholic perceptions that many of us are anti Catholic.

mbkndomer · Feb 11, 2005

Very informative stuff. Thank you all!

With regards to the Byzantine Catholic option, it really wouldn't fly. The wife doesn't have a problem with Catholic beliefs outside of the whole papacy thing. But the papacy thing is pretty big, and from everything I've read/heard, is the biggest obstacle to unity. So Orthodox it shall be. Which is fine with me.

So anyways, if it's Ok, I'd like to throw out a few more questions, as this is the first resource I've found where I haven't been answered with sheer polemic.

1. Spiritual tollhouse vs. purgatory? What is the distinction here?

2. What is the purpose of the iconostasis?

3. Will our marriage need to be blessed in the Orthodox Church for her to receive communion? The priest won't answer this question. I guess because he feels it's premature at this point.

4. I've been reading some Soloviev lately. What's the view on him around here?

5. Any recommendations on post-shism Orthodox stuff that would be good reading? I've been through a lot of Palamas, but I'm not sure where to go next. And I guess the Bros. Karamazov would probably count here too.

6. What are some books in the Orthodox canon that aren't in the RC canon?

7. What are the current views on Augustine and Aquinas? I see Augustine referred to as "Blessed Augustine" in some circles but really hit hard in others. I don't think I've ever seen an Orthodox opinion on Aquinas.

Thanks again everyone!

jkotinek · Feb 11, 2005

Matrona said:
No, you are 100% wrong here.

The pope is a teacher of heresy and has no place in the Orthodox Church. He is NOT a 'legitimate bishop'. Roman Catholics are NOT members of the Orthodox Church, and that includes 'Byzantine' Roman Catholics.

I've got to agree with The Virginian.

I've never heard anything from my priest or the things that I've read that supports a view that the Latin succession is valid, which would make the Pope the legitimate Bishop of Rome. By the same token, I've never heard any claims that the Oriental Orthodox Bishops don't have legitimate succession.

I didn't take from The Virginian's post that the Pope "has a place in the Orthodox Church," rather, that the Church (what he referenced that Rome is a part of) belongs to Christ, but we cannot share Communion with them because their theology has fallen into error.

NewToLife · Feb 11, 2005

I didn't take from The Virginian's post that the Pope "has a place in the Orthodox Church," rather, that the Church (what he referenced that Rome is a part of) belongs to Christ, but we cannot share Communion with them because their theology has fallen into error.

Orthodoxy is the Church not some branch of a greater whole, either one is within the Church or not, when we post statements differentiating between the Orthodox Church and the Church we simply generate confusion, Christ founded a single Church not many.

gzt · Feb 11, 2005

1. I won't comment except to say that tollhouses are not believed by all and are believed by some to be utterly wrong. Those who do believe them often believe they're merely allegorical. I can't comment on purgatory, though, I'm not very bright.
2. To hold up the icons.
3. Depends, different bishops have different rules, I don't think so.
4. I think he's all right, I like Berdyaev more.
5. Anything by Fr. Alexander Schmemann [especially The Eucharist and For the Life of the World], St. Seraphim of Sarov's conversation with Motovilov, Lossky are some good starters.
7. St. Augustine is a saint and he wrote some very valuable works, but some of his speculative theology is thought to be quite wrong and his body of works has very little influence in the Eastern Church. Aquinas is a very interesting fellow and he's right about a lot of things, but he's not an Orthodox theologian. We do have an enormous common ground with him, but many of the questions he's attempting to address simply didn't arise in the East. His work was influential during the so-called Latin Captivity in Russia, but these days scholastic theology doesn't rear its head much in these parts.

Rilian · Feb 11, 2005

mbkndomer said:
1. Spiritual tollhouse vs. purgatory? What is the distinction here?

The greatest distinction is that purgatory in Catholicism is I believe a dogma. The telonia/tollhouses are not. They are theologumenon, accepted by some but not all. Even then, they are not a place where one exercises sin and becomes purified. They are a way of describing how we are held accountable for our sins. I dont know of any Orthodox who believe we are ever out of the presence of God.

2. What is the purpose of the iconostasis?

The short answer is it separates the sanctuary from the nave. I believe this symbolizes the separation of the divine world from the earthly.

3. Will our marriage need to be blessed in the Orthodox Church for her to receive communion?

I dont think so, and I believe it will be regarded as a full and valid marriage. I believe you can get a ceremony of blessing later, although the priest may only do this if both spouses are Orthodox. Im not sure about that one though.

4. I've been reading some Soloviev lately. What's the view on him around here?

Orthodox opinion of Soloviev is not high.

5. Any recommendations on post-shism Orthodox stuff that would be good reading? I've been through a lot of Palamas, but I'm not sure where to go next. And I guess the Bros. Karamazov would probably count here too.

Ohhh, part of being Orthodox is being buried in books. Theres a lot out there. Theres a thread in the chapel talking about books, that might be a good place to start. One of my favorite Orthodox writers is Metropolitan Hierotheos Vlachos.

6. What are some books in the Orthodox canon that aren't in the RC canon?

1 Esdras, 3 Maccabees, Psalm 151.

7. What are the current views on Augustine and Aquinas? I see Augustine referred to as "Blessed Augustine" in some circles but really hit hard in others. I don't think I've ever seen an Orthodox opinion on Aquinas.

Opinion is mixed on the Blessed Augustine, some get really worked up about him. Hes on the calendar in all canonical Orthodox churches though, thats the important thing to remember. I view him as having many good things to say, but unfortunately the source of many things that went wrong in the western church. Aquinas being post schism I dont think gets a whole lot of attention, but the whole scholastic movement of people like him and Duns Scotus is not regarded well. Probably the best example of this is the Orthodox opposition that arose against Barlaam of Calabria who was highly influenced by scholasticism.

katherine2001 · Feb 11, 2005

The Iconostasis also separates the nave from the Sanctuary (which represents Heaven).

Matrona · Feb 11, 2005

mbkndomer said:
1. Spiritual tollhouse vs. purgatory? What is the distinction here?

Tollhouses are sort of a "pious image" and aren't dogma by any stretch of the imagination.

(Literal tollhouses is heresy and no legitimate Orthodox church should be teaching that.)

2. What is the purpose of the iconostasis?

To hold up the icons.

The iconostasis sets apart the altar area. In our beliefs, the altar area represents heaven, so we feel that the altar area needs to be set apart. The reserve Eucharist and relics are back there, too, so the altar area is not appropriate for anything other than holy use.

3. Will our marriage need to be blessed in the Orthodox Church for her to receive communion? The priest won't answer this question. I guess because he feels it's premature at this point.

He probably won't require it, but if he does, it's just a simple matter to have a crowning ceremony done, and you can think of it as renewing your vows. (An Orthodox can marry anyone who has been baptized Christian, you wouldn't have to convert or anything.)

4. I've been reading some Soloviev lately. What's the view on him around here?

I've no clue.

5. Any recommendations on post-shism Orthodox stuff that would be good reading? I've been through a lot of Palamas, but I'm not sure where to go next. And I guess the Bros. Karamazov would probably count here too.

Fr. Alexander Schmemann.

Also, Kyriacos C. Markides' The Mountain of Silence.

6. What are some books in the Orthodox canon that aren't in the RC canon?

3 Maccabees and Psalm 151. 4 Maccabees is sometimes included but never as anything more than an appendix.

7. What are the current views on Augustine and Aquinas? I see Augustine referred to as "Blessed Augustine" in some circles but really hit hard in others. I don't think I've ever seen an Orthodox opinion on Aquinas.

St. Augustine is recognized as an Orthodox saint because of his repentance and devotion, but his writings contain a lot of errors.

Aquinas was never Orthodox so we could not call him a saint even if we wanted to.

jkotinek · Feb 11, 2005

NewToLife said:
Orthodoxy is the Church not some branch of a greater whole, either one is within the Church or not, when we post statements differentiating between the Orthodox Church and the Church we simply generate confusion, Christ founded a single Church not many.

I don't think that we're in disagreement. To be sure, my post is an affirmation that there is one Church established by Christ. Christ didn't establish "The Orthodox Church;" we're Orthodox because we have faithfully protected the deposit of faith once handed down to the Apostles.

Hoonbaba · Feb 13, 2005

Hmm....I'm a bit confused. Can someone straighten the record for me?

Does Orthodoxy recognize the validity of the Catholic Church's sacraments?

-Jason

Hoonbaba · Feb 13, 2005

Rilian said:
My priest has a saying about the Byzantine Catholics.

They look Orthodox.
They smell Orthodox.
They are not Orthodox.

Yes, they have kept things like the liturgy and vestments, but their theology is not Orthodox. That is the important part.

Hmm...interesting. I think I'd have to disagree to some extent: I've been learning a lot concering Orthodoxy through a Byzantine Catholic priest, especially on ideas regarding theosis, iconography, and many referred me to Orthodox literature for an Eastern understanding of Christianity.

So are you saying that Byzantines basically fell away from these distinct Eastern ideas, or are you specifically referring to them joining with Rome, and therefore adopting non-Eastern theology (i.e. papacy).

-Jason

Hoonbaba · Feb 13, 2005

NewToLife said:
Orthodoxy is the Church not some branch of a greater whole, either one is within the Church or not, when we post statements differentiating between the Orthodox Church and the Church we simply generate confusion, Christ founded a single Church not many.

So is this to say Catholics are not in the Church and therefore damned??

-Jason

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