Discussing the Didache - Chapter 1

talmidim said:

Forgive me koilias. I did not wish to offend. These were phrased as questions because I seek the answers, not because I endorse ANY inhumane doctrines. You say that these are old debates. They are all new debates to the uninitiated. Just because my hair is grey does not mean that I have been in the sheepfold very long.

Perhaps posting a link to where they were discussed might be useful. You could even PM the answer so as not to clutter up your discussion with the questions of the admittedly ignorant. While I might agree in principle with your position on these issues, I will not know for certain until I explore the issue or can rely on the interpretations of those I trust. I have found that not asking questions is often worse than asking them. Even the ones that are difficult to address. However, rather than offend I will simply withdraw to the bleacher seats and pray that someone will at some point, inadvertantly address my unspoken queries.

b'Shalom
talmidim

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Forgive me achi if I implied you are ignorant. By no means do I think that! In fact, I enjoy your contributions, since not only do they come from a vantage point of knowledge, but they are indicative of a remarkably reflective character. I find your knowledge excellent, as your first post to this thread proves indeed.

I do not want to squelch your questions, but perhaps I take the long view on these things, since experience proves that they could overwhelm the discussion of the Didache. I know that theology is important, but I think we need to get back to the "nuts and bolts" of what it means to walk honestly before HaShem, which is the spirit of the material we are studying here. With regards to the Nephilim, I admit, I get impatient with eschatological speculation, since in Christian circles it tends to overwhelm all Biblical study to the detriment of more important doctrines. Anyway, I don't know that this is the thread to discuss these things, but perhaps I can point you in some helpful directions.

1) First read 1 Enoch, 4 Ezra and 2 Barukh and become familiar with the Pseudapigrapha...At least enough to know about the "apocalyptic mindset". You will find there interesting traditions which inform the ones we've inherited from the last two writers of the Brit haHadasha. This step is helpful in general for accessing the meaning of Revelation.

2) Read some about the Essenes, who they were and what their doctrines were, and become familiar with the Dead Sea Scrolls.

3) This part I think you are already familiar with: read about the Rabbis and their doctrines.

4) Read the Testament of Abraham and the Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs. These books reflect the "post-Essene" pietism of the circles Yeshua and Yacob came from. I have found these documents the most important of all the extra-biblical writings to grasping the background of Yeshua.

5) Then read David Flusser's book Jesus and he will situate Yeshua's teaching and philosophy for you within the context of the Judaism(s) of his time. You can skip steps 1 to 4, but you may not grasp the incredible knowledge of second temple Judaism that Flusser has if you don't have some prior background in it.

Shalom and blessings on your studies, achi!

How about a simple definition to start?

My first experience with the "didache" came yesterday. I have no knowledge of this literature. A background would help.

m.d.

muffler dragon said:

How about a simple definition to start?

My first experience with the "didache" came yesterday. I have no knowledge of this literature. A background would help.

m.d.

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Funny that your post comes in the heels of my last comment to Talmidim.

We should have defined the Didache and spoken more about the context of the brand of Judaism it represents.

The Didache reflects the normative "pietism" of first century Judaism. It is written by law-abiding folks who care deeply about how to live a Torah centered lifestyle in a Torah hostile world. They were folks who also took apocalyptic literature seriously, just like the Essenes. But, they realized that the central injunction of the Torah is to love one's neighbor as oneself and love the stranger...Well, what if the stranger is Rome...What do we do then?

This curious paradox in the "nuts and bolts" of Judaism brought up a lot of questions and a lot of reflection (in the spirit of Talmidim above)...These folks looked at the Essene separatists and they admired their lifestyle a lot, but they did not agree with their eschatological doctrines or their mindset that one should "hate" their enemy, praying for their utter destruction, because their Rabbis were picking up the teachings of Hillel, the great sage of their time. So they began to think.

They rewrote the Testament of the Twelve Patriarchs, which originated in Essene circles, to rethink the Essene doctrine of how Jewish ethics should work. In these Testaments we can see evidence of the "post-Essene" turn in apocalyptic Judaism.

The Didache is a direct outcome of this thinking. I should have brought it up before. If we want to get a flavor of the pietistic Judaism we encounter in the Didache we can read the Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs and the Testament of Abraham to see the "stream" of Judaism the Didache authors came from directly.

BTW, M.D....Happy B-day!!!

Thank you Koilas. I appreciate it.

I've dug up a reference that pertains to our discussion from the Testament of Simeon:

From the Tetament of the Twelve Patriarchs

Chapter four
1Now, listen to me, children, and live in integrity of heart,
for in it I have observed everything that is well-pleasing to the Lord.
2The genuine man does not desire gold,
he does not defraud his neighbor,
nor does he want fine clothes.
3He does not make plans to live a long life,
but awaits only the will of God.
4And the spirits of error have no power over him,
since he does not include feminine beauty in the scope of his vision,
lest by allowing distraction he might corrupt his mind.
5Envy will not penetrate his thinking;
no malice dissipates his soul;
no avarice intrudes upon his integrity.
6For he lives by the integrity of his soul,
and perceives all things by the rectitude of his heart,
making no place for an outlook made evil by this world’s error,
in order that he might envision no turning aside from any of the Lord’s commands.

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Notice that the "spirits of error" are not so much cosmic personalities so much as they are impersonal forces that tempt the heart. The spirits of error have such mundane names as "envy, malice, etc". This is an Essene doctrine, but Yeshua and Yacob (and I believe Yohannan too) did not see the "sons of men" divided from birth to one camp of the cosmic battle. The spirits of error are always before us. The thing that determines whether one is a "son of Abraham" or a "son of Satan" is what one does, "the proof is in the pudding" as we say...One can become one or the other...it is not one's predetermined nature or destiny to become a "son of Abraham" or a "son of Satan".

And did we mention?

"Didache" means the "Teaching". The Hebrew equivalent I believe would be "Hor'ah" or perhaps even "Mishnah", since the Didache was probably meant to be recited over and over again until committed to memory.

.

What is the basis for the EO/GO emphasis on the didache? Or are even more 'denominations' interested in it?

Is it a piece of literature that is esteemed by the Jewish nation?

koilias said:

I've dug up a reference that pertains to our discussion from the Testament of Simeon:


Notice that the "spirits of error" are not so much cosmic personalities so much as they are impersonal forces that tempt the heart. The spirits of error have such mundane names as "envy, malice, etc". This is an Essene doctrine, but Yeshua and Yacob (and I believe Yohannan too) did not see the "sons of men" divided from birth to one camp of the cosmic battle. The spirits of error are always before us. The thing that determines whether one is a "son of Abraham" or a "son of Satan" is what one does, "the proof is in the pudding" as we say...One can become one or the other...it is not one's predetermined nature or destiny to become a "son of Abraham" or a "son of Satan".

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That makes me think about something I heard about "sin" being "missing the mark". So we have to turn neither to the left nor to the right.

By the way, forgive my ignorance. I feel a bit like a kindergartener who walked into a college class.

muffler dragon said:

What is the basis for the EO/GO emphasis on the didache? Or are even more 'denominations' interested in it?

Is it a piece of literature that is esteemed by the Jewish nation?

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Sorry, M.D., I don't get the first question...Can you rephrase?

koilias said:

Sorry, M.D., I don't get the first question...Can you rephrase?

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Why do the people in TAW or the Orthodox section emphasize the didache so much?

muffler dragon said:

Why do the people in TAW or the Orthodox section emphasize the didache so much?

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Hmm...they do??

That's cool...way to hold on to your guns, I would tell them. Of course, the question is, do they understand the halakha and Jewish spirit of the words?? Probably no more than they understand Paul and esp. Yeshua. But, in regards to the Orthodox, I'm fairly impressed that those guys still reflect their Diaspora Jewish theological origins in many ways. I see in them a kindling of that spirit of Alexandrian Judaism still glowing in them; unfortunately, this means that they will never relinquish their strident Hellenism. I believe Christianity has got to relinquish all its Hellenic trappings and return to its Jewish heart.

insaneinthebrain said:

The Orthodox forum here at CF had a discussion on the Didache going a little over a year ago: http://www.christianforums.com/t48095

I have to be honest and say I haven't read this, but I'm pretty sure it represents the Orthodox view.

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My favorite line is Oblio's:

Oblio said:

Notice also that the Early Christian faith is one of praxis, and not faith alone. A practice of love, of almsgiving, of fasting, of ascetisim, of prayer.

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For once we agree!

Fast on behalf of those that persecute you; for what thank is there if ye love them that love you?

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I don't know that this is specifically a Didache question, but in reading the above, I've realized that I have a hard time grasping the whens and whys of fasting. Anyone want to help me out?

iitb said:

I don't know that this is specifically a Didache question, but in reading the above, I've realized that I have a hard time grasping the whens and whys of fasting. Anyone want to help me out?

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It comes up later in the Didache...I think its Wednesdays and Fridays, twice a week for the writers of the Didache.

My teachers said Prayer, Fasting and Charity were taken very seriously by the Hassidim, Yeshua's movement in particular. Marc Turnage said these are Yeshua's "three pillars". Later, "Torah study" replaced "fasting" in Rabbinicism's three pillars, but the Hassidim considered pious practices to be all about Torah. Prayer, Fasting and Charity put the Torah into practice (see Yeshua's parables) and were themselves opportunities to meditate on Torah...Simple study in the beit-Midrash merely commented on it .

Oh...and I'm pretty sure it was sundown to sundown, every single Wed. and Fri.

What did they do? Instead of eating physical food they ate spiritual mannah. Mannah means "What is it?" And is called repeatedly in the Torah "a food your fathers did not KNOW". It represents HaShem's word, His Torah. On Fridays they probably did a "double dose" of meditation and study of Torah, in order to prepare for the Shabbat.

Yeshua was probably "fasting" by talking to the Samaritan woman at the well...notice he also doesn't drink, but shares instead his "drink" of G-d's salvation to the woman. When the talmidim come back, he tells them he is not hungry anymore because he just had "a food you know not of".

Thinking more about it...I don't believe Yeshua would have taught his talmidim to fast on certain specific days of the week...Although they probably did fast with that kind of regularity. The Didache is probably presenting a communal model that was slightly more regularized in mentality (because the Didache community was beginning to distinguish itself more from normative Judaism). But Yeshua would not have it: you keep your fasts secret to yourself.

However, I should stress that frequent and regular fasting was warp and woof of the spirituality of the pious Jewish circles he came from. This is the same guy, after all, who fasted 40 days in row. Hassids were fasting nuts. Their diets were legendary. It is said that the Hassid Hannina ben Dosa subsisted on carobs alone. And look at Yohannan the Immerser...he ate only what the wilderness provided.

I DO NOT advocate however these kind of fasting gymnastics in our day and age. We do not have the same kind of diets or bodies that they had. (Our foods are much much richer now...and their stomachs were used to doing with a lot less). We don't know their fasting techniques...and even what kind a "fast" Yeshua had in the wilderness. He certainly drank during that time and perhaps even ate grasses and herbs (all we know is that he did not eat bread). If you are going to do a fast of many days in a row...do it only under a physician's careful watch! I have heard that people have died from trying to fast 40 days!